Future of the Blackpool South line

[AngelicUpstart]

Sudden thought - in a couple of years time, all the pacers are likely to get withdrawn, which presumably means there's a good chance the line will suddenly see new, sleek, modern diesels running along it, even with no improvements to the infrastructure. I wonder if that would mean more seats per train too. You would expect that, even with only the hourly service, that will make using the line a fair bit more attractive, so could increase passenger numbers. How would that impact any case for work on the infrastructure? Could new trains mean faster acceleration so slightly faster journey times? Would higher existing passenger numbers make it easier to build a case for infrastructure investment for a more frequent service, or would higher capacity on the trains weaken the case?

By "new trains", I assume you mean something different to the 150s and 156s the line already gets and that will replace the Pacers?

 

[NotATrainspott]

That would be my preference too. Extending to Blackpool Central would instantly make the line massively more useful. (Actually, in an ideal World with much more funding available, my preference would be to return the rail line to Blackpool Central AND tunnel under the town centre and run the line right through to Blackpool North - with most existing Blackpool North services then being extended to Blackpool South. But I realize that would require a huge investment).

I think one problem with proposing conversion of the line to a tram route is that the trams would take much longer to get from Blackpool South to the town centre (assuming they run along the existing routes). On the other hand, if the rail line was extended, you'd be looking at a couple of minutes max. to get from Blackpool South to Blackpool Central, making the service more attractive for people heading for the town centre. If you wanted the flexibility of tram connections then, from what I know of the road layout, it wouldn't be that hard to divert the tram line to directly connect to Pleasure Beach rail station.

Tram lines are much cheaper to build than heavy rail lines. The Sintropher study looked at the possibility of connecting the South Fylde line to the Blackpool Tramway via Blackpool Central but said that the cost would be prohibitive. Since a heavy rail extension would be even more expensive, I think that it's completely off the table.

Sudden thought - in a couple of years time, all the pacers are likely to get withdrawn, which presumably means there's a good chance the line will suddenly see new, sleek, modern diesels running along it, even with no improvements to the infrastructure. I wonder if that would mean more seats per train too. You would expect that, even with only the hourly service, that will make using the line a fair bit more attractive, so could increase passenger numbers. How would that impact any case for work on the infrastructure? Could new trains mean faster acceleration so slightly faster journey times? Would higher existing passenger numbers make it easier to build a case for infrastructure investment for a more frequent service, or would higher capacity on the trains weaken the case?

The line will get cascaded BR diesels from other lines. New diesels are prioritised on the most important routes into and connecting major cities.

 

[Kite159]

Sudden thought - in a couple of years time, all the pacers are likely to get withdrawn, which presumably means there's a good chance the line will suddenly see new, sleek, modern diesels running along it, even with no improvements to the infrastructure. I wonder if that would mean more seats per train too. You would expect that, even with only the hourly service, that will make using the line a fair bit more attractive, so could increase passenger numbers. How would that impact any case for work on the infrastructure? Could new trains mean faster acceleration so slightly faster journey times? Would higher existing passenger numbers make it easier to build a case for infrastructure investment for a more frequent service, or would higher capacity on the trains weaken the case?

New diesels very unlikely, you will probably get the deluxe 150s

 

[Chester1]

This thread is proving that members of this site have a strong tendency to ignore cost and benefit and rank solutions in the following order:

1) Reopen a line that was closed a long time ago

2) Any other heavy rail solution

3) Any other public transport solution

4) Any car based solution

Network Rail will not spend more than a token amount of further rail projects in the Blackpool area for a very long time. Any major infrastructure spending will by the council(s) and that makes tram extension far more likely than a major heavy rail project.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

May I ask if there has been any official statement made with regards to the possible future improvements of the Blackpool South line.?

 

[Oxfordblues]

This thread reminds me of a report in the late-1960s to the Borough Council recommending diversion of the A584 between Saltcotes and Ansdell away from the seafront and onto the alignment of the railway, which the consultants assumed would soon close as it was seen as a little-used branch line. The councillors lapped it up: no more crossing the busy main road to reach The Green and a useful inner-urban bypass for through traffic.

As ever there was no vision for the future of the line and its potential as a transport lifeline. The report was a complete waste of money and was later quietly binned!

 

[Cliveblackpool]

May I ask if there has been any official statement made with regards to the possible future improvements of the Blackpool South line.?

https://www.blackpool.gov.uk/Residents/Parking-roads-and-transport/Transport/Transport-policy.aspx
The most recent official information from Blackpool Council that I can find-

Supporting railways
Up to 10m visitors arrive by train each year and summer trains can be crowded. It is hoped that old diesel trains will be replaced by faster, smoother and more comfortable electric vehicles when the North Fylde Line is electrified. Rail infrastructure operator, Network Rail, is intending to complete electrification in the early part of 2018. Blackpool North railway station's platforms will be rebuilt and re-signalled to allow more efficient operation and therefore more trains in the future.

In April 2016, Northern Railway took control of the resort's direct rail services to Manchester Victoria, Hazel Grove, York and Manchester Airport. This company's website provides all timetable information. Virgin Trains provide a single 5:25 service to London Euston. The Alliance Rail 'open access operator' is intending to operate six daily services from Blackpool to London from 2018.

The delay in electrification has cost Blackpool its direct rail link to Liverpool as electric trains now serving that important destination cannot run through to Blackpool. This service should be restored when electrification work is complete.

The council lobbies the railway industry for more investment in Blackpool rail services. It is a member of the West Coast Rail 250 group, which has been instrumental in improving the vital West Coast Main-line, bringing visitors from Scotland and the south and connecting the resort's businesses to London. Recently the council has supported the Rail North organisation, which will be helping manage the northern rail franchises, and is a stakeholder in the Transport for the North organisation, which is looking at new strategic transport links to benefit the whole of the north.

The council has supported the South Fylde Line Community Rail Partnership for many years. It is also a partner with Lancashire County Council in the Sintropher project's connectivity study on this single-track line line, with a view to seeking investment in the future.

 

[seasidersfan]

https://www.blackpool.gov.uk/Residents/Parking-roads-and-transport/Transport/Transport-policy.aspx
The most recent official information from Blackpool Council that I can find-

Supporting railways
Up to 10m visitors arrive by train each year and summer trains can be crowded. It is hoped that old diesel trains will be replaced by faster, smoother and more comfortable electric vehicles when the North Fylde Line is electrified. Rail infrastructure operator, Network Rail, is intending to complete electrification in the early part of 2018. Blackpool North railway station's platforms will be rebuilt and re-signalled to allow more efficient operation and therefore more trains in the future.

In April 2016, Northern Railway took control of the resort's direct rail services to Manchester Victoria, Hazel Grove, York and Manchester Airport. This company's website provides all timetable information. Virgin Trains provide a single 5:25 service to London Euston. The Alliance Rail 'open access operator' is intending to operate six daily services from Blackpool to London from 2018.

The delay in electrification has cost Blackpool its direct rail link to Liverpool as electric trains now serving that important destination cannot run through to Blackpool. This service should be restored when electrification work is complete.

The council lobbies the railway industry for more investment in Blackpool rail services. It is a member of the West Coast Rail 250 group, which has been instrumental in improving the vital West Coast Main-line, bringing visitors from Scotland and the south and connecting the resort's businesses to London. Recently the council has supported the Rail North organisation, which will be helping manage the northern rail franchises, and is a stakeholder in the Transport for the North organisation, which is looking at new strategic transport links to benefit the whole of the north.

The council has supported the South Fylde Line Community Rail Partnership for many years. It is also a partner with Lancashire County Council in the Sintropher project's connectivity study on this single-track line line, with a view to seeking investment in the future.

Also here from the same article:

Blackpool Council and Lancashire County Council have worked together to renew the tramway from Blackpool to nearby town Fleetwood, enabling a fleet of 16 modern 'Flexity 2' trams to help people travel between Fylde Coast destinations. Heritage trams continue to use the system, providing a service for tourists and enthusiasts and making a fine sight as they ply the Promenade.

The two councils now wish to extend this, initially to connect to train services at Blackpool North railway station, for which the Lancashire Enterprise Partnership will provide some funding. This scheme will provide vastly improved public transport access to Blackpool's seafront hotels and attractions, particularly the Pleasure Beach, and connect the North Fylde to the national rail network.

The Fylde Coast councils have been partners within the SINTROPHER (Sustainable Integrated Tram-Based Transport Options for Peripheral European Regions) project, providing 7.2m Euro from the European Union Interreg IVB initiative to study ways in which the tramway might be extended. This concluded that a scheme to initially extend the tramway to Blackpool North railway station should be pursued.

A second phase SINTROPHER project headed by Lancashire County Council with Blackpool Council's support, has considered how the South Fylde Line might be improved to best meet the Fylde Coast's regeneration needs. This single-track line provides a vital local rail service and brings many visitors to Blackpool from East Lancashire, to the extent that there has been over-crowding on the trains. The study's conclusions are available on the SINTROPHER website.

 

[thenorthern]

If the line was converted I would think it would be beneficial if ran through to Preston as I think only converting it from Blackpool South to Kirkham and Wesham would make the Blackpool South line end up like to Liverpool > Ormskirk > Preston line.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This thread is proving that members of this site have a strong tendency to ignore cost and benefit and rank solutions in the following order:

1) Reopen a line that was closed a long time ago

You mean - like the direct Kirkham-Blackpool Central line, which was closed a long time ago and which evidently everyone on this thread is asking to be reopened as a priority?

2) Any other heavy rail solution

3) Any other public transport solution

4) Any car based solution

Probably not too surprising given the damage that it's now widely recognised that cars do, and the unsustainability of car-based transport policies in urban areas.

Network Rail will not spend more than a token amount of further rail projects in the Blackpool area for a very long time. Any major infrastructure spending will by the council(s) and that makes tram extension far more likely than a major heavy rail project.

I fear you may be correct here.

 

[edwin_m]

If the line was converted I would think it would be beneficial if ran through to Preston as I think only converting it from Blackpool South to Kirkham and Wesham would make the Blackpool South line end up like to Liverpool > Ormskirk > Preston line.

I agree - I haven't had the misfortune of alighting at K&W but from a passing train it looks like a pretty desolate spot to wait for a connection. I suspect a tram terminating there would also be pretty terminal (pun intended) for ridership between the South Fylde and Preston or beyond. If any sort of connection to Blackpool tramway is to happen then I suggest it either needs to be a tram-train through to Preston or some sort of overlap or interchange in the Lytham/St Annes area.

 

[glbotu]

I agree - I haven't had the misfortune of alighting at K&W but from a passing train it looks like a pretty desolate spot to wait for a connection. I suspect a tram terminating there would also be pretty terminal (pun intended) for ridership between the South Fylde and Preston or beyond. If any sort of connection to Blackpool tramway is to happen then I suggest it either needs to be a tram-train through to Preston or some sort of overlap or interchange in the Lytham/St Annes area.

I would posit that a tram extension would be coupled with a station improvement. After all, if Kirkham and Wesham were to become the terminus of the South Fylde tram then it would become "South Fylde Parkway", which would probably mean it got a bit of a jazz up. In fact, my understanding is its getting quite the makeover as part of Blackpool electrification.

 

[seasidersfan]

Kirkham will not be the terminus of a tramway (initially), because it was not considered as part of the SINTROPHER study. It'd cost too much at first.

Any extension would be to St Anne's or Lytham with some overlap of the existing railway. I envisage rail curtailment at St Anne's, with a double track tram taking over that section from Blackpool (probably joining up at either Starr Gate or just south of the Pleasure Beach). Heavy and light rail could then run as two single parallel services between St Annes and Lytham.

That was the option in the study, and everybody would win in that case. You could even still have the proposed passing loop if there was room to allow 2PH St Anne's to Preston.

Kirkham (or even Preston) is a good candidate for tram-trains in the long term but I'm not in favour of them for a shorter line. It would just be a waste of time and money (see Sheffield) for something that can be done with standard Flexities.

 

[PR1Berske]

I would posit that a tram extension would be coupled with a station improvement. After all, if Kirkham and Wesham were to become the terminus of the South Fylde tram then it would become "South Fylde Parkway", which would probably mean it got a bit of a jazz up. In fact, my understanding is its getting quite the makeover as part of Blackpool electrification.

And maybe because of the improvements being made to K&W now, it's very unlikely that money will be available to change it further for trams.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I agree - I haven't had the misfortune of alighting at K&W but from a passing train it looks like a pretty desolate spot to wait for a connection.

I suspect that's just the station being in need of refurbishment. I used to visit the area regularly, and once you leave the station, it seems a perfectly OK area, with a fair few houses nearby.

The only real issue is that it's not very near the town centre - but there's not a lot that can be realistically done about that. The railway simply doesn't go past the town centre.

 

[Elecman]

Not sure where you would build a large car park at Kirkham and Wesham for it to become a Parkway type station. The present parking is fully occupied by 6.30 in the morning and is even abused by the former pub being converted to multiple flats whose occupants also park there.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Kirkham will not be the terminus of a tramway (initially), because it was not considered as part of the SINTROPHER study. It'd cost too much at first.

Any extension would be to St Anne's or Lytham with some overlap of the existing railway. I envisage rail curtailment at St Anne's, with a double track tram taking over that section from Blackpool (probably joining up at either Starr Gate or just south of the Pleasure Beach). Heavy and light rail could then run as two single parallel services between St Annes and Lytham.

That was the option in the study, and everybody would win in that case. You could even still have the proposed passing loop if there was room to allow 2PH St Anne's to Preston.

Kirkham (or even Preston) is a good candidate for tram-trains in the long term but I'm not in favour of them for a shorter line. It would just be a waste of time and money (see Sheffield) for something that can be done with standard Flexities.

The issue there is that while you preserve South Fylde rail access to the rest of Lancashire, the service no longer links the rest of Lancashire to Blackpool without an interchange. It would be quite arguable that with the tram extension to Blackpool North it would be more useful to send the Colne service that way as it would be a superior interchange location. The passenger numbers on the line would drop further as it would serve no useful purpose for getting people into Blackpool; even though it would make a 2tph service easier, the passenger numbers simply wouldn't be there. If the Colne service is redirected to the North, then you would have to run an extra DMU shuttle to Preston, resulting in an increase in subsidy.

I suspect that's just the station being in need of refurbishment. I used to visit the area regularly, and once you leave the station, it seems a perfectly OK area, with a fair few houses nearby.

The only real issue is that it's not very near the town centre - but there's not a lot that can be realistically done about that. The railway simply doesn't go past the town centre.

Oddly enough, there is something that could be done about it, but only because of trams. Trams can run along streets and would be able to go where people want to go. Kirkham to Blackpool is the sort of marginal journey where the convenience of the bus being right outside your door is enough to balance out any sort of quality or speed improvement going by heavy rail. Just as in Oldham or Rochdale the tram could be extended or redirected away from the existing railway alignment and to where people actually want to go, improving its usefulness for all sorts of journeys without making it worse for many others.

Again, the most important factor in everything is money, and a tram conversion provides the opportunity to reduce subsidy while improving services. Any loss to a specific group of travellers would be outweighed by benefits to many others. We wouldn't be talking about this if this were the only line remaining into Blackpool.

 

[seasidersfan]

The issue there is that while you preserve South Fylde rail access to the rest of Lancashire, the service no longer links the rest of Lancashire to Blackpool without an interchange. It would be quite arguable that with the tram extension to Blackpool North it would be more useful to send the Colne service that way as it would be a superior interchange location. The passenger numbers on the line would drop further as it would serve no useful purpose for getting people into Blackpool; even though it would make a 2tph service easier, the passenger numbers simply wouldn't be there. If the Colne service is redirected to the North, then you would have to run an extra DMU shuttle to Preston, resulting in an increase in subsidy.



Oddly enough, there is something that could be done about it, but only because of trams. Trams can run along streets and would be able to go where people want to go. Kirkham to Blackpool is the sort of marginal journey where the convenience of the bus being right outside your door is enough to balance out any sort of quality or speed improvement going by heavy rail. Just as in Oldham or Rochdale the tram could be extended or redirected away from the existing railway alignment and to where people actually want to go, improving its usefulness for all sorts of journeys without making it worse for many others.

Again, the most important factor in everything is money, and a tram conversion provides the opportunity to reduce subsidy while improving services. Any loss to a specific group of travellers would be outweighed by benefits to many others. We wouldn't be talking about this if this were the only line remaining into Blackpool.

You make some valid points. But currently a significant number of users of the line are from St Annes and Lytham, and these passengers will be almost completely retained (very few take the train into Blackpool from here).

Converting that section to the tram might not necessarily reduce passengers on the heavy rail service. Trams will obviously provide more stops, so that would open up more passengers to the possibility of interchanging onto trains at St Annes or Lytham stations.

Plus, tourists in the South of Blackpool may prefer to take the tram to the south line rather than the north if timetables are preferable.

Overall I don't feel like there would be a net loss of passengers, at least not a significant enough one to cancel the train service outright.

If you are right however, I suppose there is the option of completely retaining heavy rail and having a parallel tram service the whole length, but that might not be physically possible. But again, I don't believe the required capital to extend to Kirkham would be forked out in one go.

 

[thenorthern]

I don't think having a Preston to Lytham St Annes heavy rail and then Lytham St Annes into Blackpool tram would be a good idea as I think it would end up being like the Ormskirk Branch Line. With the Ormskirk Branch Line the removal of through services from Preston to Liverpool in 1970 has meant a large amount of passengers from Ormskirk getting the fast train into Liverpool but a skeleton service operating from Preston to Ormskirk with low passenger numbers.

I can't see there being as much passenger traffic for getting into south Blackpool from Preston if it involved changing en-route and a Preston to Lytham St Annes service just can't see being viable. Even if it meant changing at Kirkham and Wesham I don't think there would be many through passengers.

Conversion of the line into a tram train route from Lytham St Annes into Blackpool would be a better option in my opinion.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

What would extending the rail line from Blackpool South to Blackpool North entail ? Then there would be a proper Fylde loop.

 

[Elecman]

What would extending the rail line from Blackpool South to Blackpool North entail ? Then there would be a proper Fylde loop.

Massive amounts of private property to be purchased and demolished through the town centre or an expensive tunnel under the town from South station to North station assuming you don't reuse the former alignment through to Central

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think having a Preston to Lytham St Annes heavy rail and then Lytham St Annes into Blackpool tram would be a good idea as I think it would end up being like the Ormskirk Branch Line. With the Ormskirk Branch Line the removal of through services from Preston to Liverpool in 1970 has meant a large amount of passengers from Ormskirk getting the fast train into Liverpool but a skeleton service operating from Preston to Ormskirk with low passenger numbers.

I wouldn't really call it a skeleton service, though it is a bit infrequent. It is planned for increase to hourly with 2 units (as it was in the early 1990s) when Northern get their new stock.

 

[seasidersfan]

I don't think having a Preston to Lytham St Annes heavy rail and then Lytham St Annes into Blackpool tram would be a good idea as I think it would end up being like the Ormskirk Branch Line. With the Ormskirk Branch Line the removal of through services from Preston to Liverpool in 1970 has meant a large amount of passengers from Ormskirk getting the fast train into Liverpool but a skeleton service operating from Preston to Ormskirk with low passenger numbers.

I can't see there being as much passenger traffic for getting into south Blackpool from Preston if it involved changing en-route and a Preston to Lytham St Annes service just can't see being viable. Even if it meant changing at Kirkham and Wesham I don't think there would be many through passengers.

Conversion of the line into a tram train route from Lytham St Annes into Blackpool would be a better option in my opinion.

Respectfully disagree. If you read my post again I do not think there would be any significant change in passengers using the heavy rail and it may actually increase.

Realistically a St Anne's or Lytham extension is the only option because the huge cost for Kirkham will not be paid for at once by the coincils involved, even if on paper it's a better option.

 

[thenorthern]

I wouldn't really call it a skeleton service, though it is a bit infrequent. It is planned for increase to hourly with 2 units (as it was in the early 1990s) when Northern get their new stock.

Its underused in my opinion as its not got an hourly service or a Sunday service and splitting the line in two has effectively cut out the main Preston to Liverpool route leaving a slow hourly local indirect service between Preston and Liverpool.

Respectfully disagree. If you read my post again I do not think there would be any significant change in passengers using the heavy rail and it may actually increase.

Realistically a St Anne's or Lytham extension is the only option because the huge cost for Kirkham will not be paid for at once by the coincils involved, even if on paper it's a better option.

Having two councils isn't the easiest thing when building tramways your right.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In historical terms, you have to go back to the opening of the then new Marton express line and its junction to the line in question. What we now see as a single platform Blackpool South terminal station was actually opened in 1903 as Waterloo Road as a four-platform junction station, with two platform faces on the express line and two platform faces on the existing line. It remained named as Waterloo Road for a period of 29 years until 1932, when it was then named Blackpool South.

 

[thenorthern]

Blackpool Pleasure Beach station has always seemed somewhat underused in my experience as its never had large passenger numbers and I would expect that some of the numbers it does have are from people who live near the station.

In historical terms, you have to go back to the opening of the then new Marton express line and its junction to the line in question. What we now see as a single platform Blackpool South terminal station was actually opened in 1903 as Waterloo Road as a four-platform junction station, with two platform faces on the express line and two platform faces on the existing line. It remained named as Waterloo Road for a period of 29 years until 1932, when it was then named Blackpool South.

Those were the day having a direct service into Blackpool using the quickest most direct route (the two current routes double back on themselves) and having a station in the centre of Blackpool.

 

[Gathursty]

A left-field proposal now...

Cut the line back to Blackpool Pleasure Beach and massively advertise the line as the Pleasure Beach line.

More of a trans-Neptunian proposal now...

In the same form as the line at and near Birkbeck in London, shared tram and train route from some point just south of Squires Gate upto Lytham St Annes where the now-extended tramway terminates.

 

[Chester1]

This has turned into a fantasy thread! There is no chance of reopening Blackpool Central etc and only a small chance of significant heavy rail upgrades. If Blackpool Council want to extend the tram to St Annes or Lytham then Network Rail will sign over the section to reduce its liabilities. If Network Rail or DfT cared about the line it would have a passing loop by now.

 

[Howardh]

Without going through all the posts, looking at a map the logical thing would be to close Squires Gate to Blackpool South, have the trams joining the line @ Squires Gate, redouble the line wherever possible and where costs permit, run the trams through to Kirkham, and maybe one day the line to Fleetwood would be opened and the tram can run to there from Kirkham?
Are the current promenade trams capable of running on heavy rail? If not, then train/trams from Squires gate to Kirkham and all change there.
But as I said, I've not read through all the posts so I haven't read the thousand reasons that's not possible!!

 

[Howardh]

Sudden thought - in a couple of years time, all the pacers are likely to get withdrawn, which presumably means there's a good chance the line will suddenly see new, sleek, modern diesels running along it, even with no improvements to the infrastructure. I wonder if that would mean more seats per train too. You would expect that, even with only the hourly service, that will make using the line a fair bit more attractive, so could increase passenger numbers. How would that impact any case for work on the infrastructure? Could new trains mean faster acceleration so slightly faster journey times? Would higher existing passenger numbers make it easier to build a case for infrastructure investment for a more frequent service, or would higher capacity on the trains weaken the case?

It would be nice but I suspect, assuming it remains linked to the colne branch, it will end up with the worst of what is left.

Heritage pacers???

I've had a little read back, and one thought, would the cost of conversion be worth it? Well, if you are a family out for a day out then getting the tram @ Kirkham - or even a P+R between there and Lytham (especially if signposted from the motorway) may be a more attractive prospect than a clapped out pacer or sprinter. "Mummy, can we go on the trams....??" So it's a boost to locals and tourists.