td97
Established Member
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The inflexibility of losing access to Blackpool North train maintenance depot would be substantial
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Future of the 350/2s
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tfw756rider
On Moderation
Any photos or videos out there, does anyone know?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Would it? There are plenty of others across the network.
Presumably it would also be an option to loco-haul them there with an ETCS fitted loco if they absolutely needed to go there for specific work.
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It's pretty likely that some of the 350s will need ETCS fitted at some point, and I can't imagine that the /2s are so unique that a standard design for doing so wouldn't be any use for that.
Fitting it to 323s would be a different matter as there aren't any other similar units knocking around.
Being able to do 110 rather than 90 (if they get a long enough run on a suitable route) might open up some otherwise unavailable paths.
Fitting it to 323s would be a different matter as there aren't any other similar units knocking around.
Being able to do 110 rather than 90 (if they get a long enough run on a suitable route) might open up some otherwise unavailable paths.
How many routes on the Northern Network have line speeds of 110mph and enough space between station stops for a 350/2 to reach 110mph.
The 110mph top speed advantage gets wiped out when you take into account the slightly slower acceleration and slower door opening and closing times when compared to 323s.
The 110mph top speed advantage gets wiped out when you take into account the slightly slower acceleration and slower door opening and closing times when compared to 323s.
Well thats good news, at least there are some routes on the Northern network where 350/2s could reach their top speed.
If the slightly slower acceleration and slower door opening and closing times compared to 323s could be fixed then the 350/2s could be a good temporary 323 replacement.
If the slightly slower acceleration and slower door opening and closing times compared to 323s could be fixed then the 350/2s could be a good temporary 323 replacement.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or if tweaking the timetable is a possibility, of course.
They are good units, far better than 323s from a passenger point of view. I can't think of anything about the interior that isn't many, many times better than a 323. They need a cleanup and new seat foams/covers but I'm sure in line with Northern's usual approach they would get them.
Would not be possible for all 323 routes, Stoke stoppers are a good example imo.
Not sure about Glossop, timetables there may also not be able to be tweaked. (Full 331 operation on Glossop would fix that issue, but not sure if there are enough spare 331s for that to happen).
Any routes that have fast and slow lines would not need any timetable tweaking of course.
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They sure do need a good refurb regardless of who (if anybody) takes them.
I don't know how much it'd help, but the Cheadle Hulme to Kidsgrove line mostly has a line speed higher than the 90 that 323s can achieve, so managing that might offset the slower station calls.
Stockport to Crewe is mostly 110, as well.
Stockport to Crewe is mostly 110, as well.
The higher than 90mph line speed would help, but you would also need maybe a gap of say 8-10 mins between station as well and then 350/2s would be fine on services to Stoke.
ASDO/SDO would be needed for 8 cars in winter, but I'm sure that could be installed.
ASDO/SDO would be needed for 8 cars in winter, but I'm sure that could be installed.
Rail Quest
Member
I seem to remember hearing at some point that 331s were tested on Glossop and were deemed unsuitable because of some sort of sighting issue. Apologies if this is incorrect, please can anyone in the know confirm/deny/clarify.
jonnyfan
Member
That's what I've been led to understand too, it's a rarity for the 331s to pop up on the Glossop line but the CCTV on the pantograph does help with OHLE inspections. But yes, only the 3-car variants can work the line, there are sighting issues with 4-cars at Dinting station where the extremely curved platform means the conductor is unable to safely dispatch the train.
The seating capacity of a 3-car 331 is 184 compared to a Class 323 at 277, so there's a big drop in seating capacity when a 331 is used. That's fine for the off-peak, but the peak time services are completely full (even most of the middle seats on a 3-a-breast row are used!)
Dinting has always been a pain the backside, the curve in the track at Dinting was why the 323s did not enter service on the Glossop line until like 1997.
If all seats on 323s at on peak times are full then replacing the 323s with 3 car 331s on Glossop is a non starter.
323s could still get replaced by 350/2s, just not on Glossop, Glossop would have to switch to 4 car Sprinter operation until the 382s enter service.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I can't remember now despite having been on one this morning...did the DOO cameras get fitted to the 350/2s or was it just the other subclasses? Could they prove an option for that awkward dispatch but used by the guard in the rear cab? Or could they just use local door? It's not the busiest station in the world.
Rail Quest
Member
If 350s can't keep up with 323 timings on Glossop because of door timings, the sprinters and their woeful acceleration would be way worse surely, even with faster doors
Sprinters somehow work fine on Glossop, Northern use Sprinters on Glossop services during the summer.If 350s can't keep up with 323 timings on Glossop because of door timings, the sprinters and their woeful acceleration would be way worse surely, even with faster doors
Not sure if timings get tweaked for the sprinters though.
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350/2s don't have DOO cameras, as can be seen here.
None of the 350s got DOO cameras, in this video you can see 2 refurbished 350/1s and nether of them have DOO cameras.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The /1s, /3s and /4s now do have DOO cameras retrofitted (though are not worked DOO and WMT have no plans to introduce DOO). I just can't remember if the /2s do or not. Your video must predate their installation.
jonnyfan
Member
Well, associated with the introduction of 6-car 331s on the Leeds triangle routes, CCTV dispatch has been implemented at Shipley, due to the same issues experienced at Dinting. The CCTV screens are provided at the middle point of the platform, giving the conductor a full view of the train. So there's ways around this, maybe it'll be the way forward with Dinting? But that's pure speculation.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
If the issue is just with one of the platforms, would it be possible to permanently operate the "end" of the line in the easier direction? I.e. run all all services via Dinting > Hadfield > Glossop & reverse. Or would this reduce capacity? I believe in the past the increased peak frequency required the triangle to be operated unidirectionally.
If dispatch from a single platform is the only obstacle then surely that kind of thing would be the answer. I believe they used CCTV dispatch on quiet backwaters like Clapham Junction, as well...
Other obstacles may be harder to solve, of course.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
that would still require you to use the difficult platform, it's all single track
Not if the service went Dinting - Hadfield - Glossop Hadfield - Dinting. Though that might cause the overall journey to take too long, perhaps?
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Sorry I wasn't clear in my initial post- this is what I meant, I muddied the waters a bit by mentioning the "circular" method of working which is largely irrelevant to what I was suggesting!
Assuming it would work timing-wise, the main downside would be extended journey times to and from Glossop which has over double the annual ridership of Hadfield. Plus of course the removal of the ability to run the 20 minute interval peak service.
Potentially that latter point could be mitigated by providing a second platform at Hadfield, but I'm getting into "sledgehammer to crack a nut" territory there. It's a lot of expense just to justify allocating some units to Northern because some people are upset that they might not have a home.
amahy
Member
And make Northern's DMU shortage even worse - fantastic!
If the 350/2s did replace the 323s, if DMUs are an issue then I guess Glossop would have to become Rail Replacement bus services until the 382s come into service.
Anyway we will just have to wait and see what happens next year, as I don't think we will hear anything officially about any future home (if there ever is one) for the 350/2s this year.
Anyway we will just have to wait and see what happens next year, as I don't think we will hear anything officially about any future home (if there ever is one) for the 350/2s this year.
warwickshire
On Moderation
Could the Dft and the new rail governing body under Great British Railways, force Northern to take the 3502s on, or see sense that they should and assist their use onto Northern?.
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