Future of the 350/2s

[465fan]

Northern is in the process of procuring 12 x 3 car new EMUs for TRU.

Which makes little sense, when you consider you have an overall Northern order potentially coming for hundreds of vehicles, and in this case, it would allow a standardisation of a fleet in West Yorkshire for a period, with some additional services in due time. It would re-release 331s back to the West.

Remember they're only 4x20m, which gives them roughly the same capacity as 3x24m.

Well that as may be, it's still a direct replacement for 333s which could finally be binned off. You could also do something really radical like "sub-lease" them internally to the North East and let them be used to get journey times down, and pathing easier, for stopping services north of Newcastle. They can't surely be a whole lot worse than using TPE 802s, which are hardly worth being wasted on a Newcastle - Edinburgh shuttle?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They can't surely be a whole lot worse than using TPE 802s, which are hardly worth being wasted on a Newcastle - Edinburgh shuttle?

Fairly sure that's done because 125mph running is needed to path it (and secondarily because at least some of the 802s are maintained in Scotland?). Otherwise logic would be that it would be a ScotRail operated EMU of some sort.

 

[465fan]

Fairly sure that's done because 125mph running is needed to path it (and secondarily because at least some of the 802s are maintained in Scotland?). Otherwise logic would be that it would be a ScotRail operated EMU of some sort.

There is nothing higher than 110 until north of Alnmouth, and that 26 miles produces a net time saving of 1m42s. If you assume a more sensible door arrangement anyway, you are probably getting reduced dwell times at stations such as Morpeth, Alnmouth and Reston, so actually it's probably net even. Running them as 8 cars every two hours or so, you've probably got it licked.

 

[D365]

Which makes little sense, when you consider you have an overall Northern order potentially coming for hundreds of vehicles…

This is the Northern order for hundreds of vehicles. The 12 x 3 car EMUs is the first ’Lot’, with a second ’Lot’ following for Sprinter replacement.

 

[WideRanger]

Once electrification is further advanced, all-stations trains on the MML on the route to Leicester and further North, allowing (timetable permitting) longer distance trains to be sped up?

 

[skyhigh]

Well that as may be, it's still a direct replacement for 333s which could finally be binned off.

There are zero plans to withdraw 333s.

No more 3 car operation

As I understand it, the current plan is that very little is planned to be 3 car (only 1 unit diagram). 350s aren't needed to eliminate 3 car working.

Northern were evaluating the use of the 350s, but I have little idea where they would be used or if anything is actually progressing. There was no suggestion of conversion to bi-mode or battery.

 

[778]

Could they be cannibalized for spare parts to keep the other Desiros going?

 

[JonathanH]

Could they be cannibalized for spare parts to keep the other Desiros going?

I'm not sure the Desiro fleet is old enough that that is necessary.

 

[deltic08]

There is nothing higher than 110 until north of Alnmouth, and that 26 miles produces a net time saving of 1m42s. If you assume a more sensible door arrangement anyway, you are probably getting reduced dwell times at stations such as Morpeth, Alnmouth and Reston, so actually it's probably net even. Running them as 8 cars every two hours or so, you've probably got it licked.

Sorry I disagree. The entire line from immediately north of Alnmouth viaduct to the slowing at Scremerston for the Royal Border Bridge is 125mph apart from 1 105, 2 110 and 2 120 slacks for curves. The entire length of Cockburnpath bank is 125 as far as Oxwellmains cement works and 125 from East Fortune to Drem and 120 further as far as Prestonpans if not Wallyford.

 

[hux385]

How easy would it be to reconfigure them to a mix of 3 and 5 car sets by stealing a carriage from one set and popping it into another? Is that technically feasible?

I feel like this configuration would be better for ScotRail as it would allow pairs of 3 cars to operate where the 318s currently do.

 

[43096]

Could they be cannibalized for spare parts to keep the other Desiros going?

Only if the other owners of Desiros pay Porterbrook the going rate to buy the trains.

 

[Wolfie]

How easy would it be to reconfigure them to a mix of 3 and 5 car sets by stealing a carriage from one set and popping it into another? Is that technically feasible?

I feel like this configuration would be better for ScotRail as it would allow pairs of 3 cars to operate where the 318s currently do.

An interesting question, not least because l seem to recall speculation about the possibility of lengthening the 185s using 350 carriages too.

 

[Charged up]

How easy would it be to reconfigure them to a mix of 3 and 5 car sets by stealing a carriage from one set and popping it into another? Is that technically feasible?

I feel like this configuration would be better for ScotRail as it would allow pairs of 3 cars to operate where the 318s currently do.

Surely this is worth pursuing as it could allow some of the older EMU C318s which operate in 6-car formation to be withdrawn and provide a good 5-car solution for East Kilbride peak services (4 or 5 diagrams?) which will be a "tight squeeze" if ScR only put 4-car C380s on some of the peak services from December 2025. Additional 5-cars on most of the Inverclyde routes would also make sense and free up more modern (2x) 3-cars formations for elsewhere in Strathclyde.

In addition Porterbrook/ Alstom could also look at fitting batteries to some of the 4-cars which could allow GLC-Kilmarnock services to run under wires to Barrhead then power on southbound. C350/2s BEMUs could then also run across to Barassie and pick up the wires which would allow them to charge down to Ayr and easily make it to/from Girvan. The benefit of this is it would allow a significant number of the (near 40 year old) C156s to be withdrawn from the south west area and be replaced by a modern, reliable and economic fleet which offers far better passenger experience.

If there were enough 4-car units left could some more be used to free up 4-car Hitachi C385s which could then have batteries installed for some of the Borders line or Fife circle services when Dalmeny - Haymarket wires go live?

 

[brad465]

Here's an idea, maybe invest in lengthening platforms and/or SDO and do away with as many 3-car units as possible? Then the 350/2s will have an abundance of options for future use and there'd be a capacity boost at the same time.

 

[JamesT]

How easy would it be to reconfigure them to a mix of 3 and 5 car sets by stealing a carriage from one set and popping it into another? Is that technically feasible?

I feel like this configuration would be better for ScotRail as it would allow pairs of 3 cars to operate where the 318s currently do.

The usual objection to such reconfiguration is the presence of necessary equipment under each carriage. I don't know the specifics of the Class 350s, but other classes have for example a compressor under one carriage and the transformer under another. Both are necessary for the train to work, but there isn't enough space to move that kit so it's only under one carriage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The usual objection to such reconfiguration is the presence of necessary equipment under each carriage. I don't know the specifics of the Class 350s, but other classes have for example a compressor under one carriage and the transformer under another. Both are necessary for the train to work, but there isn't enough space to move that kit so it's only under one carriage.

While you would need to do some moving about, I'm fairly sure I recall there is very little indeed under the non-pantograph trailer of a 350.

 

[Russel]

An interesting question, not least because l seem to recall speculation about the possibility of lengthening the 185s using 350 carriages too.

Would this even be possible?

 

[Nym]

Would this even be possible?

Anything is possible with enough money and knowledge.

Sensible on the other hand...?

 

[Russel]

Anything is possible with enough money and knowledge.

Sensible on the other hand...?

Quite.

I know they are built on the same platform, but do they share the same body profile, car lengths etc?

 

[43096]

Quite.

I know they are built on the same platform, but do they share the same body profile, car lengths etc?

Different owners, different vehicle lengths for starters.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Likely scrap. They are the worst of the 350s, they’re not needed by any TOC and if not disposed of they will just take up needless yard space.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Likely scrap. They are the worst of the 350s, they’re not needed by any TOC and if not disposed of they will just take up needless yard space.

Surely export would be better than scrap, if they're not going to be used here.

 

[Trainbike46]

Surely export would be better than scrap, if they're not going to be used here.

If you can find someone abroad who wants them, sure.

I still hope they'll find a use on the UK network though!

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you can find someone abroad who wants them, sure.

I still hope they'll find a use on the UK network though!

I hope so too. Maybe we could electrify the NI network with OHLE and change the bogies, but I think Stormont has spent too much on a DMU fleet recently sadly.

 

[Trainbike46]

I hope so too. Maybe we could electrify the NI network with OHLE and change the bogies, but I think Stormont has spent too much on a DMU fleet recently sadly.

Allegedly, we're going to get electrification at some point near 2040! I don't see the 350s coming this way though

 

[Russel]

Different owners, different vehicle lengths for starters.

Total non starter then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you can find someone abroad who wants them, sure.

Thailand uses what are basically 350s on the expanding Bangkok network.

I still hope they'll find a use on the UK network though!

I think they will. Why scrap new EMUs when they can replace older ones?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Allegedly, we're going to get electrification at some point near 2040! I don't see the 350s coming this way though

Indeed, I think it will be too late for 350 use sadly.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Surely export would be better than scrap, if they're not going to be used here.

I don't think they have the safety systems required to operate in any other countries, and I can't see it being a cheap retrofit either.

 

[Brubulus]

If they would otherwise go to scrap, I can see them going to GWR, so Southern can take the 387s, then move 377s over to Southeastern. They're 4x20M 110mph units, so there would be no platform or pathing issues. There is also 7 more of them than the 387s, giving some room for future electrification.

However, the depot and training changes might put the DfT off and instead let them go to scrap.