Future of the 350/2s

[Northerngirl]

Weren't Lnwr saying they were starting a Manchester - Birmingham service, is it not for that

 

[Rail Quest]

Weren't Lnwr saying they were starting a Manchester - Birmingham service, is it not for that

I don't think that's been approved by ORR yet, has it? Even then, such moves wouldn't need to go via St Helens Jnc or need to call at all of the stops along the way

 

[185]

Weren't Lnwr saying they were starting a Manchester - Birmingham service, is it not for that

It was

- Manchester Vic-Crewe-London (extension of their Trent Valley WCML service)...

and

- Manchester Airport-Crewe-Stoke-Stafford (extension of their Potteries service).

Nothing approved formally yet.

That said, seeing the overcrowding on XC's little 4-car voyagers (with just 3 standard coaches), additional capacity is needed.

 

[Russel]

It was

- Manchester Vic-Crewe-London (extension of their Trent Valley WCML service)...

and

- Manchester Airport-Crewe-Stoke-Stafford (extension of their Potteries service).

Nothing approved formally yet.

That said, seeing the overcrowding on XC's little 4-car voyagers (with just 3 standard coaches), additional capacity is needed.

How do either of these services relieve the overcrowding on XC... Unless of course the fares can be cheap enough to convince people to change at Stafford.

 

[D365]

There's perhaps some evidence that Northern are actually considering these units. These movements tonight are being run by 350235 and I've heard rumours that they are test/proof runs potentially for Northern, hence them performing the Liverpool to Man Airport stopping pattern.

This is an open secret.

 

[185]

How do either of these services relieve the overcrowding on XC... Unless of course the fares can be cheap enough to convince people to change at Stafford.

The above post was in reply to a poster asking if LNR were going to run Manchester Birmingham to which the answer is no, but as stated additional capacity on Birmingham Manchester is needed.

- If you ask me, one or both of the Crosscountry Manchesters should go to another operator with electric trains, not limited to three coaches of standard class as at present - totally unfit for the passenger numbers concerned.

 

[Nym]

This is an open secret.

Porterbrook trying to flog something not really suitable long term that they can't lease to anyone else to Northern Rail?

Who'd have ever thought that would happen?

 

[daodao]

one or both of the Crosscountry Manchesters should go to another operator with electric trains

Hear, hear. The surplus 350/2s would be very suitable, as I have suggested previously in earlier posts on this thread (32/50/54/95/108/137/254).

 

[JonathanH]

What are the reasons Northern would take on any 350s instead of just taking on the 9 spare 323s?

 

[Philip]

What are the reasons Northern would take on any 350s instead of just taking on the 9 spare 323s?

Faster, more modern & comfortable, probably more reliable to list a few reasons.

They can also run in multiple with a gangway connection with the 331s & 323s can't do. Would this allow 8-car trains to stop at the stations where the platforms aren't long enough for the whole train, providing the back of the train (or where the guard is) is within the platform?

 

[tfw756rider]

What are the reasons Northern would take on any 350s instead of just taking on the 9 spare 323s?

Perhaps because they're not ex-British Rail, and are more modern, and therefore wouldn't be as old until the replacements for the electric trains arrive (which I understand to be later than the replacements for the Diesel trains).

323s are 30+ years old in 2025 whereas 350/2s are only 16-17, and 323s would be 35+ years old in 2030 (which will be an earlier year than any replacement) whereas 350/2s would only be 21-22.

 

[Nym]

"Because Porterbrook is offering them a good deal"

 

[JonathanH]

"Because Porterbrook is offering them a good deal"

Right, but Porterbrook own the 323s as well. Are the 9 323s better used as spares donors?

 

[Trainbike46]

Another reason could be if they want more than 9 extra units. There are 37 359/2s, if wikipedia is to be believed, so if 9 extra units isn't viewed as enough, that could be a reason to opt for 350/2s instead.

 

[Nym]

Another reason could be if they want more than 9 extra units. There are 37 359/2s, if wikipedia is to be believed, so if 9 extra units isn't viewed as enough, that could be a reason to opt for 350/2s instead.

That could be what would be driving it from the other side, if NR is looking for a significant fleet size increase and potentially diesel service rationalisation.

 

[43096]

Or Porterbrook is coming up with a deal for the Northern train procurement. Offer refurbished off lease trains cheaper than new - given Northern is an utter basket case financially, that may well be attractive to the government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or Porterbrook is coming up with a deal for the Northern train procurement. Offer refurbished off lease trains cheaper than new - given Northern is an utter basket case financially, that may well be attractive to the government.

Certainly the 350/2s are solid, reliable, competent EMUs and would be absolutely fine for the EMU component of the order. The one thing that would be needed (and I guess it'll need to be investigated as to whether this is more expensive than new EMUs) is to look at platform lengths as Northern is set up around 23/24m vehicles and not 20m, though they would be fine on routes where they would only run singly just as the 20m 319s were.

I don't think I'd complain about them coming to Northern, they're good units that to be honest we would have happily kept were it not for the game of financial brinkmanship being played that resulted in the 730/2s! (Presumably with Porterbrook having lost that particular game, they will offer Northern more reasonable lease rates).

 

[brad465]

That could be what would be driving it from the other side, if NR is looking for a significant fleet size increase and potentially diesel service rationalisation.

Are there any electrification schemes coming online soon in Northern territory, apart from Trans Pennine route upgrade areas? Otherwise the only way to rationalise is to split services unto constituent parts where diesel only runs on non-electrified lines to a key point where an EMU can take over.

 

[Along the bay]

Could they justify an internal cascade to see off the Class 333s?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surely Northern wouldn’t fit these with TrainFX as well?

 

[317 forever]

Right, but Porterbrook own the 323s as well. Are the 9 323s better used as spares donors?

Although this thread is about 350/2s, I'm sure those 9 323s could be used once the Wigan to Bolton line has been electrified.

 

[tfw756rider]

Now that it has been confirmed in another thread that all 350/2s are planned to be gone from West Midlands Trains by the end of 2025, that means if Northern are taking them, they should have all 37 4-car 350/2s available to them (I'm not aware of any plans for any of them to go to any other operators?)

Those should surely more than adequately replace all 34 of Northern's 3-car 323s, although can someone remind me exactly what the issues may be (I'm guessing platform length-related?) from going from 3-car/6-car trains to 4-car/8-car trains, and if there would actually be anything stopping the possibility of doing what's required to solve those issues?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Unless it’s related to the signal section lengths or terminus platform lengths there shouldn’t be any issues if the 350/2 units have SDO.

 

[JonathanH]

Unless it’s related to the signal section lengths or terminus platform lengths there shouldn’t be any issues if the 350/2 units have SDO.

Isn't the SDO on 350/2s limited to unit deselect, rather than individual doors?

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...very-test-updates.215134/page-96#post-7239199

 

[stadler]

Unless it’s related to the signal section lengths or terminus platform lengths there shouldn’t be any issues if the 350/2 units have SDO.

Isn't the SDO on 350/2s limited to unit deselect, rather than individual doors?

Yes the 350s only have Unit Deselect rather than full SDO fitted. On the 350s the Guard can open the front 4 coaches only (on a 8 coach or 12 coach train) by going to the cab in coach 5 and activating the UDS switch or can open the front 8 coaches only (on a 12 coach train) by going to the cab in coach 9 and activating the UDS switch. So they only have a very limited SDO that allows either 4 or 8 or 12 coaches to open. However the very similar 185s and 444s and 450s also used to have this UDS system but have since had proper ASDO fitted so retrofitting the 350s with full ASDO should be very easy.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Now that it has been confirmed in another thread that all 350/2s are planned to be gone from West Midlands Trains by the end of 2025, that means if Northern are taking them, they should have all 37 4-car 350/2s available to them (I'm not aware of any plans for any of them to go to any other operators?)

Those should surely more than adequately replace all 34 of Northern's 3-car 323s, although can someone remind me exactly what the issues may be (I'm guessing platform length-related?) from going from 3-car/6-car trains to 4-car/8-car trains, and if there would actually be anything stopping the possibility of doing what's required to solve those issues?

Why would Northern replace the 323s? Can the 350s match the 323s acceleration?

 

[Russel]

Yes the 350s only have Unit Deselect rather than full SDO fitted. On the 350s the Guard can open the front 4 coaches only (on a 8 coach or 12 coach train) by going to the cab in coach 5 and activating the UDS switch or can open the front 8 coaches only (on a 12 coach train) by going to the cab in coach 9 and activating the UDS switch. So they only have a very limited SDO that allows either 4 or 8 or 12 coaches to open. However the very similar 185s and 444s and 450s also used to have this UDS system but have since had proper ASDO fitted so retrofitting the 350s with full ASDO should be very easy.

Would retrofitting real SDO be an option?

 

[Laurencemcd]

Why would Northern replace the 323s? Can the 350s match the 323s acceleration?

I used to commute on both and the 323s are definitely faster at slower speeds (0-60mph in 47s, 0-90mph in 100s give or take), but I’m not a driver so can only speak from a passenger experience…

 

[AlastairFraser]

I used to commute on both and the 323s are definitely faster at slower speeds (0-60mph in 47s, 0-90mph in 100s give or take), but I’m not a driver so can only speak from a passenger experience…

They do have notoriously fast acceleration, compared to most EMUs from the 90s/2000s. I'm sceptical the 350 would be useful to reach higher speeds than the 323s can on the routes they are deployed on (Stoke-on-Trent/Crewe/Glossop etc).

 

[Jamesrob637]

Why would Northern replace the 323s? Can the 350s match the 323s acceleration?

8-car Manchester to Blackpool would be great