Future of Thameslink's Wimbledon/Sutton loop?

[Bald Rick]

There is still debate at the highest levels as to what terminates at Blackfriars come 2018, either Wimbledon loop or Catford loop. No decisions yet.

Dwell times in the core section - the route regularly achieves the equivalent of 24tph today during disruption (of which there has been much recently). However to do it consistently well, for 3 hours each morning and evening, will mean a completely different way of managing operations. The new trains will help, as will automatic train operation, and you can expect different despatch processes etc.

 

[mister-sparky]

Currently most of the Herne Hill routed trains tend to use the western pair of tracks and the Denmark Hill use the eastern. But as you have the ability to change north of Loughborough Junction you can find services on any of the pairs of tracks. However the plan is for 6tph (from Denmark Hill) to mix at Blackfriars on a flat crossing rather than 4tph from the Loop crossing the 6tph from Denmark Hill then the 18tph from London Bridge. So the Loop could go through the Core but only if they mix with another 28tph which means any problems could blow the entire peak. Simpler the better.



Very true. However with multiple routes having atleast some shared common track, ie Brighton and Caterham's can take each others passengers atleast as far as East Croydon. However with a lot of services being only every 30mins from the proposed service plan, those people will travel part of the way. Going north, the fact that there is more frequent services to stations should help.

However looking at 24tph terminating south on the Core or even City addd in with the 8tph into the bays and the system can't cope.



Not always. They currently use all 4 platforms for services if needed. Last minute platform changes are not uncommon at the Elephant.



The Sevenoaks terminated at Blackfriars. Sutton went through. Thre has been more additional trains added tho.

During the peaks SE services also used to go through to City Thameslink. I used to go from City to Bromley South almost every day after work.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It does seem daft that with improvements to to FCC/Thameslink, Wimbledon is losing cross London services, could they not run to the West Hampstead/Cricklewood/Hendon area for example, so at least passengers could get an easy interchange to the busy Stations at KX & St.P for EC/MML-EMT & Eurostar connections etc. I use that service and it will be a pain to change, especially with luggage. I hope they reconsider.

 

[Class377/5]

During the peaks SE services also used to go through to City Thameslink. I used to go from City to Bromley South almost every day after work.

Not every service used to go through to City. Different now there's more trains and more are coming.

It does seem daft that with improvements to to FCC/Thameslink, Wimbledon is losing cross London services, could they not run to the West Hampstead/Cricklewood/Hendon area for example, so at least passengers could get an easy interchange to the busy Stations at KX & St.P for EC/MML-EMT & Eurostar connections etc. I use that service and it will be a pain to change, especially with luggage. I hope they reconsider.

The the section around Elephant to Blackfriars that the problem. Idea is the MML gets 18tph in the peak. If you put the Loop trains through you have to terimate another 4tph in the bays. Remember that if the Loop goes through the Core, it has to cross the 18tph from London Bridge and the 6tph from Denamrk Hill. It's this crossing no flat junctions that NR wants avoid, hence the proposal of terminating the services on the bays, as a delay to one of these services will be transmitted to all the other. So major issues with the Core and the Loop will get hit. Termiating in the bays means the Loop should get a better service that doesn't include mixing with the Core problems.

Going though the Core means all the way to St Albans atleast.

As for reconsidering, well NR has made its suggestion. No-one's yet made a decision, it's all being considered.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

During the peaks SE services also used to go through to City Thameslink. I used to go from City to Bromley South almost every day after work.

Two came in to City in the morning and went into Smithfield sidings before heading out to some other sidings, I'm not sure if they were both from Sevenoaks or if one was from Orpington. Two trains went ECS into Smithfield sidings in the evening and came out to form a Sevenoaks and an Orpington service.

....Going though the Core means all the way to St Albans atleast....

Well, they could go to Cricklewood or West Hampstead and then go onto Goods One or Goods Two at Cricklewood Yard to turn round (FCC drivers did sign that, not sure if they still do), but it does seem like a waste of capacity and you'd have to extend the platforms on the loop to accept 12 car trains which would be an issue at Tulse Hill.

 

[Uzair]

Services on the Wimbledon loop were poor with Thameslink and still are with FCC. I don't mind services terminating at Blackfriars - it'll probably be fun changing there after the completion of the construction works.

However, 2tph per direction is just not good enough. Personally, I'd only like to see an improved frequency and as long as the loop service extends past Elephant & Castle, I don't care where it terminates.

Wimbledon is a bit of a bottleneck in the whole loop thought. It's single tracked through the station, and I see no solution in rectifying the problem especially with plans to increase the Tramlink service frequency.

 

[transmanche]

It does seem daft that with improvements to to FCC/Thameslink, Wimbledon is losing cross London services, could they not run to the West Hampstead/Cricklewood/Hendon area for example, so at least passengers could get an easy interchange to the busy Stations at KX & St.P for EC/MML-EMT & Eurostar connections etc. I use that service and it will be a pain to change, especially with luggage. I hope they reconsider.

There's a bit more info on the Thameslink Programme website.

 

[OxtedL]

Is there anywhere sensible around Wimbledon they could send the trams? That would seem like another sensible improvement. At the moment the easiest interchange is with Thameslink services, but these are broadly speaking just going back the same way as the tram, so if you could find some other sensible place...

 

[Class377/5]

There's a bit more info on the Thameslink Programme website.

You do realise that FCC only website that neither the DfT or Network Rail have anything to do with and is (now) talking about events past the current FCC franchise?

 

[transmanche]

You do realise that FCC only website that neither the DfT or Network Rail have anything to do with and is (now) talking about events past the current FCC franchise?

Yes thank you.

I linked to it as it added a bit more background detail to your explanation. The FAQ on the Thameslink website also makes it clear that nothing has been finalised and that it is just a proposal.

 

[Class377/5]

Well, they could go to Cricklewood or West Hampstead and then go onto Goods One or Goods Two at Cricklewood Yard to turn round (FCC drivers did sign that, not sure if they still do), but it does seem like a waste of capacity and you'd have to extend the platforms on the loop to accept 12 car trains which would be an issue at Tulse Hill.

But terminating anything from the Core that close is a complete waste of capacity in the Core. You missed the point of they can't go from Blackfriars to Kentish Town without risking affecting performance. Where they go north will not change this. To have one set of services that crosses the other 28 tph is seen as a blocking point to 24tph in the Core.

Now I don't actually agree 100% with this view but the simpler it is, the better it runs.

As for 12 cars on the Loop, That's why we were talking about station lengthing. Both Tulse Hill and Herene Hill are an issue as is Elephant & Castle. SDO is one soluation but a 9 or 10 car could work without major platform lengthening at these three stations.

 

[35B]

As for your idea that the bays can take more than 8tph, you do realise that turning a train around isn't as easy as running a train through. Without stepping back, 15mins is about the minimum you can turn a train around. Given the time to walk the train then set up the fleet and then allow boarding of passengers does take around that time. Especially if you've got busy bays like Blackfriars will have, especially in peak with Southeastern services.

Confused by this. Seem to remember reading that the GER loco hauled, steam, Jazz service managed sub 5 minute turnarounds at Liverpool Street. Yes, they did step back, but they also had to manage a loco change. Not sure why this wouldn't be possible nowadays.

 

[Class377/5]

Yes thank you.

I linked to it as it added a bit more background detail to your explanation. The FAQ on the Thameslink website also makes it clear that nothing has been finalised and that it is just a proposal.

Ace, the website has been mistaken before by others for an NR site.

Confused by this. Seem to remember reading that the GER loco hauled, steam, Jazz service managed sub 5 minute turnarounds at Liverpool Street. Yes, they did step back, but they also had to manage a loco change. Not sure why this wouldn't be possible nowadays.

Because modern stock requires time to st up a train. Simple trains means you don't have to do things like programme the CIS like you do now. It's now unacceptable to have new stock without the ability to inform passengers of what's going on, especially for blind or deaf passengers. This can take a few minutes to do, plus ensure the train is properly set up with the signaller.

Modern standards require more to do done and there is only so much stepping back can achieve. And this is normal day to day running as well. Disruption it may be able to turn trains quicker but lose some of the set up (ie CIS) as things are changing on the fly.

The Underground achieved tph nearer 40 on the south side of the Cricle in steam days but with modern trains requiring the doors to register they are safely closed this can never be achieved again.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But terminating anything from the Core that close is a complete waste of capacity in the Core. You missed the point of they can't go from Blackfriars to Kentish Town without risking affecting performance. Where they go north will not change this. To have one set of services that crosses the other 28 tph is seen as a blocking point to 24tph in the Core.

Now I don't actually agree 100% with this view but the simpler it is, the better it runs.

As for 12 cars on the Loop, That's why we were talking about station lengthing. Both Tulse Hill and Herene Hill are an issue as is Elephant & Castle. SDO is one soluation but a 9 or 10 car could work without major platform lengthening at these three stations.

I did say I thought it was a waste of capacity, and I said nothing of increasing service numbers through the core.

I don't think SDO is an option at Tulse Hill because of the potential to block a junction at either end of the station, I also don't believe there is room to expand the platforms.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Services on the Wimbledon loop were poor with Thameslink and still are with FCC. I don't mind services terminating at Blackfriars - it'll probably be fun changing there after the completion of the construction works.

How many platforms will there be at the rebuilt Blackfriars, including through and bays? Is it true that there will be access now from the South Bank?. (I did hear that there may even be a walkway to to Waterloo (East or Mainline) although how credible that report was.)

 

[cjohnson]

How many platforms will there be at the rebuilt Blackfriars, including through and bays? Is it true that there will be access now from the South Bank?. (I did hear that there may even be a walkway to to Waterloo (East or Mainline) although how credible that report was.)

The south bank entrance has been open for a couple of months now!

 

[cle]

Used it the other day. It's pretty bare bones and basically still a building site and a rabbit warren - think all those floating staircases in space in The Labyrinth!

But it's very handy and I think will be a lot more popular when all is visible.

 

[otomous]

I'm also interested to see happens with Catford Loop trains. Currently it's 2 per hour all stations to Sevenoaks, the post Thameslink Upgrade pattern is suggested as 2 per hour to Bellingham all stops and 2 per hour to Sevenoaks skip stop. It doesn't say whether the skip stops are on the loop or are on the northern end of the route. I would suggest only 4 stations are reasonable assumptions for skipping in terms of useage/catchment area - Nunhead, Crofton Park, Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne - and these were the ones that were missed out in the bad old days of no Sunday service/post 20.00 service. But if the Bellingham trains skip Nunhead and Crofton Park they will lose their direct service to Bromley South, important for employment, shopping and onward connections. And Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne can't be skipped because the Sevenoaks train will be their only service. But of course the skipped stops may be north of the river where many other services will merge from the core anyway to give them a decent service interval. Given that the Catford Loop service is amongst the worst in London in terms of service interval, two per hour, I'd hope to see at least 2 to Sevenoaks all stations and 2 to Bromley South all stations.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm also interested to see happens with Catford Loop trains. Currently it's 2 per hour all stations to Sevenoaks, the post Thameslink Upgrade pattern is suggested as 2 per hour to Bellingham all stops and 2 per hour to Sevenoaks skip stop. It doesn't say whether the skip stops are on the loop or are on the northern end of the route. I would suggest only 4 stations are reasonable assumptions for skipping in terms of useage/catchment area - Nunhead, Crofton Park, Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne - and these were the ones that were missed out in the bad old days of no Sunday service/post 20.00 service. But if the Bellingham trains skip Nunhead and Crofton Park they will lose their direct service to Bromley South, important for employment, shopping and onward connections. And Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne can't be skipped because the Sevenoaks train will be their only service. But of course the skipped stops may be north of the river where many other services will merge from the core anyway to give them a decent service interval. Given that the Catford Loop service is amongst the worst in London in terms of service interval, two per hour, I'd hope to see at least 2 to Sevenoaks all stations and 2 to Bromley South all stations.

The proposed service on the Catford Loop is 6tph.

2tph St Albans - Bellingham all stations
2tph Luton - Sevenoaks all stations (expect Nunhead & Crofton Park)
2tph Welwyn Garden City - Maidstone East calling at Elephant, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Otford then all stations (skip stopping possibly on the ECML too).

But as stated before nothing confirmed yet so no decisions have been made. All that is known is more trains are expected and everything via Catford will be 8 car Thameslink stock.

 

[cle]

Seems daft not to throw in Nunhead and Crofton Park - inner London stations shouldn't have such terrible frequency and it doesn't save much time.

Nobody really uses that Sevenoaks services for Bromley South or beyond from London - the latter part becomes a Bromley/Sevenoaks area local train.

 

[Class377/5]

Seems daft not to throw in Nunhead and Crofton Park - inner London stations shouldn't have such terrible frequency and it doesn't save much time.

Nobody really uses that Sevenoaks services for Bromley South or beyond from London - the latter part becomes a Bromley/Sevenoaks area local train.

Key word is proposed. Gives a chance for passenger group to suggest/request chances for the benefit of all.