Future of Operational Steam Locomotives

[Class73Electro]

Something I have been wondering about. More and more now I am getting Facebook announcements from preserved lines announcing that there won't be any steam running due to the dry weather causing a fire risk. This seems to be getting worse every year.

What do people think will happen in the future? Are we heading towards a winter only steam service? What about mainline running?

 

[Cowley]

Something I have been wondering about. More and more now I am getting Facebook announcements from preserved lines announcing that there won't be any steam running due to the dry weather causing a fire risk. This seems to be getting worse every year.

What do people think will happen in the future? Are we heading towards a winter only steam service? What about mainline running?

I’d say that this has been an exceptionally dry summer. I do a lot of exterior painting of houses and quite often late July and August can be really wet.

We might have an average summer next year and everything will run as programmed.

As long as the market is there steam will keep running for a good few years (probably decades) yet and especially on heritage railways.
They’re simple (although expensive when it comes to major boiler work) to repair, but the cost and availability of coal could potentially be a problem.

 

[blackfive460]

Oil firing may be a long term solution to the fire risk problem.

 

[DarloRich]

Something I have been wondering about. More and more now I am getting Facebook announcements from preserved lines announcing that there won't be any steam running due to the dry weather causing a fire risk. This seems to be getting worse every year.

What do people think will happen in the future? Are we heading towards a winter only steam service? What about mainline running?

This "season" has been very hot and very dry which is why so many steam servcies on preserved railways are being cancelled. The risk of fire is enormous and the consequential financial and reputational damage potentially catastrophic.

main line is a combination of fire risk and availability, especially for WCRC.

 

[Tetragon213]

I suspect we may see some "interesting" designs for spark arrestors in future, if this continues to be a problem.

 

[martin butler]

Whilst oil firing is an option, How many traditionally designed British locos can successfully be converted to oil firing?

The Southern tried and failed, only in Europe, was it widely used, and mostly on german designs , that had steel fireboxes,
So, how does copper cope with oil firing, and the rapid changes in heat, and localised heating/ cooling cycles?

The only engine so far being considered is an S160, Which, being a war time design, built to UK gauge was intended for use in Europe, and possibly was designed for using low grade coal, or oil,

 

[andyjhatton]

The only engine so far being considered is an S160, Which, being a war time design, built to UK gauge was intended for use in Europe, and possibly was designed for using low grade coal, or oil,

Vintage Trains are planning to rebuild 4965 Rood Ashton Hall with oil firing.

 

[martin butler]

Vintage Trains are planning to rebuild 4965 Rood Ashton Hall with oil firing.

A hall, that might struggle to fit the modern NR infrastructure, it makes more sense to fit oil firing to an engine that's gauge friendly such as one of the Castles, or possibly something else, An oil fired S160 at the head of 12 bogies, I bet that would bark.

 

[Trainlog]

Fuel wise

• Oil firing is the best solution, but shouldn't be the silver bullet. I have said this before but this should have been better represented earlier in preservation as it felt like a missing link. I always use the hypothetical of what if Didcot made a 28xx loco oil fired in the 80s, would there be this much hostility to the choice of oil firing on standard gauge locos.
• Biocoal needs to continue to be trialled, and there needs to be more published reports and feedback that is open for the public to read. The current data and news reports feel few and far between in terms of when trials took place. Biocoal will allow for the art of firing to continue on locomotives if trials continue to prove successful.

Heritage railways and railtours

• Embrace more shoulder months when possible. Spring and Autumn feel like the most optimum times for running steam trains. Perhaps more should be done to prioritise diesel galas during the summer and leave the shoulder months to steam events.
• There is already a kind of adaptation for this, but railtours should also look to embrace more shoulder months or choosing routes that can cover the most distance in daylight during these months. Steam Dreams has already adapted its Christmas circulars to focus on London versus Kent, as there is virtually nothing to see out of the train in the depths of the Weald at night, versus the lights of London.

 

[Deepgreen]

This year has been especially dry, but there have been more and more very dry spells in many recent years - far more than a couple of decades ago. There are only three real options - winter-only steam, oil-fired steam or coal-fired steam with far better spark/cinder arrestors.

The heritage main-line operators cannot continue with the uncertainty of bookings/running that is occurring now, I suspect, unless they can manage a much shorter-term trip planning and booking process to account for weather conditions, which I can't see happening given the logistics of getting steam main-line trips organised from scratch.

 

[DelW]

Whilst oil firing is an option, How many traditionally designed British locos can successfully be converted to oil firing?

The Southern tried and failed, only in Europe, was it widely used, and mostly on german designs , that had steel fireboxes,
So, how does copper cope with oil firing, and the rapid changes in heat, and localised heating/ cooling cycles?

The only engine so far being considered is an S160, Which, being a war time design, built to UK gauge was intended for use in Europe, and possibly was designed for using low grade coal, or oil,

I believe the Ffestiniog has used oil firing quite widely in the past, and may increase its use again in future. At the other end of the size range, Union Pacific's oil conversion of Challenger 3985 wasn't apparently successful (for reasons unknown to me), but the restoration to steam of Big Boy 4014 was always intended to use oil firing and seems to have worked well. I imagine that has a steel firebox though.

Personally I'd miss the smell of coal smoke, which always brings back childhood memories, but if that's the price to be paid for steam's continued use, so be it.

 

[martin butler]

One way might be to have steam approved routes in the summer months where its easy gradients, where steam can be lightly worked, and for engines to have some kind of additional spark arresting, so there can at least still be some tours,

Outside of this then things can still happen as they do, or if thats not possible then have heritage diesels , and electrics, that can take the place of steam, for example a Western, or Deltic, a 33, or 45, and only run these during the summer months,

 

[Deepgreen]

One way might be to have steam approved routes in the summer months where its easy gradients, where steam can be lightly worked, and for engines to have some kind of additional spark arresting, so there can at least still be some tours,

Outside of this then things can still happen as they do, or if thats not possible then have heritage diesels , and electrics, that can take the place of steam, for example a Western, or Deltic, a 33, or 45, and only run these during the summer months,

I think the problem with that might be that enthusiasts would not have not much interest in 'token' steam running, and even gentle routes sometimes need some concerted effort to keep time, etc. I suspect that these tours would struggle to gain enough bookings to justify running them.

I think some 'Heath Robinson' contraption that sprays water from a tender either side of the line in front of a steam loco to wet the vegetation might be the answer...

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Most of the spark problem is not from the chimney, it's from the ashpan. Most, if not all, locos in Britain have retained their original pattern ashpans (noting that early Bulleid locos have a later design to fall back on). Some have water fed to the ashes to cool them, but nothing radical. I read on the Puffing Billy website a few years descriptions of their ashpans - hopper emptying, drenching water, and air intake through airboxes which would force a ember to fly uphill against the airflow to escape. Given Australia's understandable concern about wildfires I assume that they are an answer.
Pat

 

[merry]

GCR has Railways at Work this weekend with significant fire precautions to find and deal with fires quickly:
- fire watchers at stations
- fire pump & water van on 1 train
- fire beater teams on standby
- Green Goddess fire engine based at Rothley to deal with a local high risk location
- plus the usual exhortation to crews to take care especially when pulling out of stations!
I can attest that the line is quite at risk and in need of these precautions, from my own recent shifts. Some bank fires from sparks, some sleeper fires from ashpans. I am impressed that this is a real attempt to continue running a full event service and control the fire risk. There will be delays, but they'll be minimised.

The GCR benefits from the double track in this respect too - on a busy service there are trains passing very often, so fires can be spotted & dealt with quickly. Might be a small delay, but at least issues are kept small. Perhaps this was another reason fires were less of an issue in main line steam days - there were many opportunities (and staff) to identify and deal with incidents quickly.

 

[JKF]

Portugal converted their heritage steam locos (only two I think are running, one broad gauge and one narrow) to oil firing due to fire risk and not having local availability of coal. They still look and sound like steam engines to the public. They also run heritage diesels, is there some fire risk even with oil firing?

I wonder if a ‘bi mode’ engine is possible, able to fire off coal or oil, so it could change depending on time of year? They could also chuck a bit of coal in at stations for the authentic smell!

 

[12C]

I visited the KWVR today, unfortunately their Ivatt tank caused a fire near Damems which apparently had spread beyond the railway boundary and resulted in the fire service being called out. I’m not sure if or when it reopened but we were left stranded at Haworth and ended up catching the bus back to Keighley. I’ve visited this line many times over several decades and never known anything like this happen which shows the effect of this summer’s prolonged dry weather.

It’ll be interesting to see whether they carry on with steam over the weekend or get the diesels out.

 

[Tetragon213]

I visited the KWVR today, unfortunately their Ivatt tank caused a fire near Damems which apparently had spread beyond the railway boundary and resulted in the fire service being called out. I’m not sure if or when it reopened but we were left stranded at Haworth and ended up catching the bus back to Keighley. I’ve visited this line many times over several decades and never known anything like this happen which shows the effect of this summer’s prolonged dry weather.

It’ll be interesting to see whether they carry on with steam over the weekend or get the diesels out.

We've seen a few other heritage lines putting out steam bans etc, and at the SVR we had a really bad fire not that long ago.

 

[MarkyT]

Whilst oil firing is an option, How many traditionally designed British locos can successfully be converted to oil firing?

The Southern tried and failed, only in Europe, was it widely used, and mostly on german designs , that had steel fireboxes,
So, how does copper cope with oil firing, and the rapid changes in heat, and localised heating/ cooling cycles?

The only engine so far being considered is an S160, Which, being a war time design, built to UK gauge was intended for use in Europe, and possibly was designed for using low grade coal, or oil,

The NYMR is also converting a WD 2-10-0. I saw a video about it featuring 'Piglet'. They have some consultants from the USA engaged who are designing a custom solution. If successful, the project will deliver two large steam engines that could work through much of the summer.

Such a solution will likely not use the heavy bunker fuel of the late 1940s UK trials, and of German oil firing. That needed heating to pump it through the supply pipes and had dirty emissions. The consultants explained that once a loco is converted to oil, many liquid fuels can be used with minor changes to burners and draughting to suit. Light heating oil or diesel is possible, and sustainable equivalents can be made from bio sources.

 

[52290]

Portugal converted their heritage steam locos (only two I think are running, one broad gauge and one narrow) to oil firing due to fire risk and not having local availability of coal. They still look and sound like steam engines to the public. They also run heritage diesels, is there some fire risk even with oil firing?

I wonder if a ‘bi mode’ engine is possible, able to fire off coal or oil, so it could change depending on time of year? They could also chuck a bit of coal in at stations for the authentic smell!

I was a regular visitor to Portugal in the late 1960's and early 1970's when all but a handful of broad gauge locos had been converted to oil firing. On the narrow gauge, however, all steam locos remained coal fired to the end.

 

[ac6000cw]

At the other end of the size range, Union Pacific's oil conversion of Challenger 3985 wasn't apparently successful (for reasons unknown to me), but the restoration to steam of Big Boy 4014 was always intended to use oil firing and seems to have worked well. I imagine that has a steel firebox though.

The Challenger #3985 situation is interesting, since when they were in normal service with UP, over half of the fleet of 111 Challengers were converted to oil-firing in the 1940s and AFAIK stayed that way until scrapping in the late 1950s. I think it was originally mostly done for operating into Southern California, where thick/heavy 'Bunker C' fuel (basically refinery residue) was readily available and cheap but using coal meant hauling it into the area.

 

[david1212]

I believe the Ffestiniog has used oil firing quite widely in the past, and may increase its use again in future. ....

Yes back ~50 years ago they used waste oil that was free beyond collection cost or low cost. Mountaineer ( the ALCO ) as a coal burner was very prone to emitting sparks causing lineside fires so was an early conversion to oil. This raised the smokebox temperature hence aluminium paint had to be used. As their sources of cheap oil diminished, I don't know if just changing times or a requirement for waste to be recycled, buying new oil was more expensive than coal hence locos were converted back.
I don't know which but some recent builds / reconstructions have been done such that they can be swapped between coal / coal substitute solid fuel and oil relatively easily.

 

[Egg Centric]

I have created a thread on alternative solutions in the speculative section - I think the increase can be dealt with easily enough by an imperfect solution of a primitive firefighting unit but interested in your thoughts.

 

[Taunton]

Oil firing in California was the norm more than a century ago, they were so far from coal fields and near to oilfields. The locos were commonly from batches that, elsewhere on the system where this did not apply, they were coal fired. Sometimes they were moved around the system, being converted.

Notably, from the comment above about the Festiniog, the Southern Pacific also used aluminium paint on the smokebox of their California locos. I wonder if one inspired the other.

 

[TonyW590]

Durango & Silverton and Cumbres & Toltec are both using oil-fired locos these days. And I read that Vale of Rheidol No. 9 will go back to oil as part of its current overhaul. It has to be the future, surely?

The odd thing about the Festiniog is, I understand, that when they went from oil back to coal around 2006 after 30+ years all of the oil-burning equipment (tanks, valves, burners, pan plates, etc.) removed from the locos was not retained for future use. If they go down this road they will, I believe, be starting again from scratch.

 

[trainmania100]

Wonder if household waste can be used to power steam locomotives, that's one thing that'll never be in shortage and obviously many incinerators use the burned waste to power a turbine for power generation.

 

[Tetragon213]

Wonder if household waste can be used to power steam locomotives, that's one thing that'll never be in shortage and obviously many incinerators use the burned waste to power a turbine for power generation.

Wouldn't be too keen on shovelling that into the firebox!

 

[MarkyT]

Durango & Silverton and Cumbres & Toltec are both using oil-fired locos these days. And I read that Vale of Rheidol No. 9 will go back to oil as part of its current overhaul. It has to be the future, surely?

In 2022, the D&S agreed to pay the US government and others over $20 million in damages for a huge forest fire started by the RR in 2018. Another one of that magnitude would probably wipe them out. Part of the legal settlement was an agreement to avoid using coal at all during the summer. Initially, I think they were forced to use diesel power until they could get sufficient steam oil equipped.

The odd thing about the Festiniog is, I understand, that when they went from oil back to coal around 2006 after 30+ years all of the oil-burning equipment (tanks, valves, burners, pan plates, etc.) removed from the locos was not retained for future use. If they go down this road they will, I believe, be starting again from scratch.

Although someone upthread claimed the recently constructed locomotives have been designed to facilitate conversion in the future.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Wouldn't be too keen on shovelling that into the firebox!

“Pressure’s dropping Bill, chuck a few more bags of potato peelings and that dirty nappy on the fire…”


In all seriousness, the quantity of household waste an engine could carry wouldn’t have remotely the calorific energy density needed to power it.

 

[xotGD]

“Pressure’s dropping Bill, chuck a few more bags of potato peelings and that dirty nappy on the fire…”


In all seriousness, the quantity of household waste an engine could carry wouldn’t have remotely the calorific energy density needed to power it.

Not unprocessed black bag waste, but Refuse Derived Fuel (RDF) pellets may be an option.