Future of Island Line

[SpacePhoenix]

How close to sea level is the bottom of the tunnels at their lowest point?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There isn't an 'optimum line', Ryde Tunnel consists of two single bores:

And they're each prone to flooding:

Perhaps they could be sorted with a Farnworth type solution, seeing as that's going so well...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've yet to discover any bus service, anywhere in this country worth ditching a train service for, and whilst I haven't visited the IoW in a fair few years, I sincerely doubt that Isle of Wight exceptionalism is strong enough to alter the generally inferior nature of bus transportation.

Are you seriously telling me that the ancient trains of the Island Line are superior in terms of passenger transportation to the modern buses that are operated by Southern Vectis....hock:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How close to sea level is the bottom of the tunnels at their lowest point?

During the last flooding of the Ryde tunnels, what was the period of time that the rail services were so disrupted?

 

[jon0844]

What's the capacity comparison between the buses and trains for the same route (give or take)?

Both the trains I used were just two cars. Do they double up at peak times? And what's the overall capacity per hour, compared to the double decker buses that could - in theory - be increased relatively quickly and easily if required.

I recommend everyone use the Island Line at least once, if only for the novelty factor, but I found the buses very good. Traffic is obviously a problem, but only a small part of the available routes is mirrored by the railway line so in many cases there's no real choice.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There looks to be *loads* of clearance there - does it reduce further down?

Not in the way you mean; it's more the sideways clearances although the height is part of the equation. The tunnel is not straight; there is an S bend in it.

 

[Chris125]

I thought that my original posting which stated that the Island Line was just a self-contained land-based mode of transport on a small island that was now adequately served by Southern Vectis in terms of public transport could not have been worded any clearer.

How does Southern Vectis 'adequately serve' Ryde Pier Head? Island Line may be self contained operationally but for passengers it's an extension of the national network with direct ferry interchanges at Pier Head and Portsmouth Harbour and through ticketing.

I assure you that Ryde does not hold a monopoly of ferry service passengers these days and for onward passengers arriving at Ryde, only a few settlements on the east side of the island are served by the Island Line.

Ryde/Brading/Sandown/Lake/Shanklin make up nearly half the Islands population! That's a significant number of people for whom Ryde-Portsmouth Harbour is their main way of reaching the mainland for work or onward rail services, and for which the bus (and a walk up the pier) is a far less attractive option.

Newport and Cowes are the only other significant population centres and the road congestion they suffer is hardly an advertisement for closing a railway - if they'd known the Island's population would subsequently grow by around 40% IIRC they might have thought twice.

There isn't an 'optimum line', Ryde Tunnel consists of two single bores:

There looks to be *loads* of clearance there - does it reduce further down?

Don't be fooled by the entrances, most of the tunnel is double track - to quote Mark Brinton on the SEMG Yahoo group:

"The tunnel is a mixture of brick/concrete single track arch (at each end), a twin track brick/concrete arch in the centre section and a wrought iron on cast columns covered way section under the East Street-Dover Street road junction"

As for it's size "a quick look at my papers show that the current height of the peak of the arch is about 13ft4in above rail level at the tunnel entrance on both the up and down lines at both ends.

I have looked at the building drawings (hence the delay in replying), when built the tunnel had an arch peak 14ft above rail level, so it looks as if BR only raised it about 8 inches. There was, when built, an arced brick invert that was a maximum of 2ft and a minimum of 6 inches below rail level. The main issues with getting stock through the tunnel is the arch shape and width combined with 9-10 chain reverse curves within the tunnel.

 

[jon0844]

Even the train doesn't seem to serve the pier head that well. When we arrived we just missed the train and had a 35-40 minute wait or thereabouts.

Hardly anyone waited so I assume they all took a cab or walked.

 

[Chris125]

Even the train doesn't seem to serve the pier head that well. When we arrived we just missed the train and had a 35-40 minute wait or thereabouts.

A loop at Brading would be useful to avoid long waits, but in my experience it's very rare to miss a timetabled connection.

 

[Argosy]

I've yet to discover any bus service, anywhere in this country worth ditching a train service for, and whilst I haven't visited the IoW in a fair few years, I sincerely doubt that Isle of Wight exceptionalism is strong enough to alter the generally inferior nature of bus transportation.

No I think you'd be incorrect there. The Islands railways paricularly the Ventnor line really served holidaymakers and if you wanted to, to get to London.

As a child growing up on the Island in the 1960's we'd probably go 3-4 times per year to London. As it happened I lived in Cowes after a short stint in St Helens (IoW). The bus in St Helens was the no. 8 and was about 200 yards away. The train was in Brading about 3 miles away. My mother didn't learn to drive till she was 35 and my father was away at sea with BP. Indeed that was one reason for going to London, to get to the Isle of Grain, but we never used the Island train service because it was irrelevant. We were bus users.

The only time we used the train was to get up the pier at Ryde if the Drewry tram was full.

As posted before you really have had to have lived on the Island to understand it all. The railway is so marginal. Good to get you to the ferry and ok if you go to school at Sandown High (I remember it as a grammar school) or live nearby fine, but really the Island is so small in terms of centres the railway is really irrelevent for local use unless it is for the reasons I stated before.

Ryde, a long distance from the shops and up a hill either from St Johns or the Esplanade. The bus took you to Cross Street or the Town Hall much much closer. Prior to closure, Cowes was apart from Pier Head, wonderfully located for the ferry service, Red Funnel to/from Southampton and also the most centrally placed station with regard to High Street access of any on the Island. Sandown and Shanklin are kind of out the way, Ventnor half way up St Boniface Down on the road to Wroxall. Frankly you'd be mad to go by rail for shopping and no one really did!

For years the main shopping centres were Ryde and Newport. We didn't have a big supermarket until 1982 I think when Tesco's built at Ryde Airport. I won the first road service licence in 50 years as a new operator to serve it with a bus service from the West Wight. Not bad against the cartel of SVOC, Seaview Services, West Wight Bus and Moss Motor Services.

Cowes, Sandown, Shanklin and Ventnor were secondary shopping centres and East Cowes and Freshwater tertiary shopping centres. Apart from local village stores er that was it.

Since then I've seen the complete collapse of the coach day tripper market. I remember in the mid 1980's at Yarmouth with West Wight bus vying for custom against Fountain Coaches for passengers and we'd have 4 or 5 coaches on Round the Island. Now gone, SVOC have closed Freshwater depot, West Wight bus went ages ago, Mosses have gone. Why because everyone drives! This is what will help kill the railway.

When I was little, my grandparents had never learned to drive. Now nearly all of us can drive and of course driving means freedom on a place like the Island.

For me the future of the Island line is to be absorbed by the heritage railway with some kind of tram system if both could co-exist. To carry on as now will not solve the problem.

Indeed often talked about is the closure of Ryde Pier with all ferries going to Fishbourne (effectively down stream Wooton). With that the train really does become probably superflous.

The best mainland anology I can think of is having a railway to/from Heathrow but not serving anywhere else in London other than stations at Kensington Olympia, Clapham Junction and terminating at Lewisham and then wondering why so few people use it.

It was just a shame the Sadler Vectarail project went west and that the lines to Cowes and Ventnor weren't saved. If we'd had trams I think things would have been different, but we didn't and we are where we are.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How does Southern Vectis 'adequately serve' Ryde Pier Head? Island Line may be self contained operationally but for passengers it's an extension of the national network with direct ferry interchanges at Pier Head and Portsmouth Harbour and through ticketing.

Southern Vectis have a bus station outside the station on the esplanade at Ryde which the following services run from:-
Service 2.....Ryde-Sandown-Shanklin-Godshill-Merstone-Newport
Service 3.....Ryde-Sandown-Shanklin-Ventnor-Wroxhall-Godshill-Rookley-Newport
Service 8.....Ryde-Seaview-Bembridge-Sandown-Arreton-Newport
Service 9.....Ryde-Binstead-Wootton-Newport
Service 37...Ryde-Haylands-Binstead-Ryde circular

I think that, noting the settlements of note that exist on the island on the island, that Ryde and its railway connections is very well served by Southern Vectis, in answer to the question that was asked.

 

[yorksrob]

No I think you'd be incorrect there. The Islands railways paricularly the Ventnor line really served holidaymakers and if you wanted to, to get to London.

As a child growing up on the Island in the 1960's we'd probably go 3-4 times per year to London. As it happened I lived in Cowes after a short stint in St Helens (IoW). The bus in St Helens was the no. 8 and was about 200 yards away. The train was in Brading about 3 miles away. My mother didn't learn to drive till she was 35 and my father was away at sea with BP. Indeed that was one reason for going to London, to get to the Isle of Grain, but we never used the Island train service because it was irrelevant. We were bus users.

The only time we used the train was to get up the pier at Ryde if the Drewry tram was full.

As posted before you really have had to have lived on the Island to understand it all. The railway is so marginal. Good to get you to the ferry and ok if you go to school at Sandown High (I remember it as a grammar school) or live nearby fine, but really the Island is so small in terms of centres the railway is really irrelevent for local use unless it is for the reasons I stated before.

Ryde, a long distance from the shops and up a hill either from St Johns or the Esplanade. The bus took you to Cross Street or the Town Hall much much closer. Prior to closure, Cowes was apart from Pier Head, wonderfully located for the ferry service, Red Funnel to/from Southampton and also the most centrally placed station with regard to High Street access of any on the Island. Sandown and Shanklin are kind of out the way, Ventnor half way up St Boniface Down on the road to Wroxall. Frankly you'd be mad to go by rail for shopping and no one really did!

For years the main shopping centres were Ryde and Newport. We didn't have a big supermarket until 1982 I think when Tesco's built at Ryde Airport. I won the first road service licence in 50 years as a new operator to serve it with a bus service from the West Wight. Not bad against the cartel of SVOC, Seaview Services, West Wight Bus and Moss Motor Services.

Cowes, Sandown, Shanklin and Ventnor were secondary shopping centres and East Cowes and Freshwater tertiary shopping centres. Apart from local village stores er that was it.

Since then I've seen the complete collapse of the coach day tripper market. I remember in the mid 1980's at Yarmouth with West Wight bus vying for custom against Fountain Coaches for passengers and we'd have 4 or 5 coaches on Round the Island. Now gone, SVOC have closed Freshwater depot, West Wight bus went ages ago, Mosses have gone. Why because everyone drives! This is what will help kill the railway.

When I was little, my grandparents had never learned to drive. Now nearly all of us can drive and of course driving means freedom on a place like the Island.

For me the future of the Island line is to be absorbed by the heritage railway with some kind of tram system if both could co-exist. To carry on as now will not solve the problem.

Indeed often talked about is the closure of Ryde Pier with all ferries going to Fishbourne (effectively down stream Wooton). With that the train really does become probably superflous.

The best mainland anology I can think of is having a railway to/from Heathrow but not serving anywhere else in London other than stations at Kensington Olympia, Clapham Junction and terminating at Lewisham and then wondering why so few people use it.

It was just a shame the Sadler Vectarail project went west and that the lines to Cowes and Ventnor weren't saved. If we'd had trams I think things would have been different, but we didn't and we are where we are.

There clearly are plenty of people using the train as the passenger figures illustrate. Your thought that the route needs to be somehow absorbed into a heritage railway sounds very much like (to use the phrase of another esteemed member of this forum) a solution looking for a problem.

Yes, the trains may only be two carriage most of the time, but the passengers support a relatively frequent service and as you point out, it supports the tourist industry.

However wonderful the bus service, it in no way justifies replacing the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Southern Vectis have a bus station outside the station on the esplanade at Ryde which the following services run from:-
Service 2.....Ryde-Sandown-Shanklin-Godshill-Merstone-Newport
Service 3.....Ryde-Sandown-Shanklin-Ventnor-Wroxhall-Godshill-Rookley-Newport
Service 8.....Ryde-Seaview-Bembridge-Sandown-Arreton-Newport
Service 9.....Ryde-Binstead-Wootton-Newport
Service 37...Ryde-Haylands-Binstead-Ryde circular

None of those serve Ryde pier head. It's quite a walk.

That said, if the railway were to close some kind of people mover could deal with a shuttle along the pier.

 

[glbotu]

No I think you'd be incorrect there. The Islands railways paricularly the Ventnor line really served holidaymakers and if you wanted to, to get to London.

As a child growing up on the Island in the 1960's we'd probably go 3-4 times per year to London. As it happened I lived in Cowes after a short stint in St Helens (IoW). The bus in St Helens was the no. 8 and was about 200 yards away. The train was in Brading about 3 miles away. My mother didn't learn to drive till she was 35 and my father was away at sea with BP. Indeed that was one reason for going to London, to get to the Isle of Grain, but we never used the Island train service because it was irrelevant. We were bus users.

The only time we used the train was to get up the pier at Ryde if the Drewry tram was full.

As posted before you really have had to have lived on the Island to understand it all. The railway is so marginal. Good to get you to the ferry and ok if you go to school at Sandown High (I remember it as a grammar school) or live nearby fine, but really the Island is so small in terms of centres the railway is really irrelevent for local use unless it is for the reasons I stated before.

Ryde, a long distance from the shops and up a hill either from St Johns or the Esplanade. The bus took you to Cross Street or the Town Hall much much closer. Prior to closure, Cowes was apart from Pier Head, wonderfully located for the ferry service, Red Funnel to/from Southampton and also the most centrally placed station with regard to High Street access of any on the Island. Sandown and Shanklin are kind of out the way, Ventnor half way up St Boniface Down on the road to Wroxall. Frankly you'd be mad to go by rail for shopping and no one really did!

For years the main shopping centres were Ryde and Newport. We didn't have a big supermarket until 1982 I think when Tesco's built at Ryde Airport. I won the first road service licence in 50 years as a new operator to serve it with a bus service from the West Wight. Not bad against the cartel of SVOC, Seaview Services, West Wight Bus and Moss Motor Services.

Cowes, Sandown, Shanklin and Ventnor were secondary shopping centres and East Cowes and Freshwater tertiary shopping centres. Apart from local village stores er that was it.

Since then I've seen the complete collapse of the coach day tripper market. I remember in the mid 1980's at Yarmouth with West Wight bus vying for custom against Fountain Coaches for passengers and we'd have 4 or 5 coaches on Round the Island. Now gone, SVOC have closed Freshwater depot, West Wight bus went ages ago, Mosses have gone. Why because everyone drives! This is what will help kill the railway.

When I was little, my grandparents had never learned to drive. Now nearly all of us can drive and of course driving means freedom on a place like the Island.

For me the future of the Island line is to be absorbed by the heritage railway with some kind of tram system if both could co-exist. To carry on as now will not solve the problem.

Indeed often talked about is the closure of Ryde Pier with all ferries going to Fishbourne (effectively down stream Wooton). With that the train really does become probably superflous.

The best mainland anology I can think of is having a railway to/from Heathrow but not serving anywhere else in London other than stations at Kensington Olympia, Clapham Junction and terminating at Lewisham and then wondering why so few people use it.

It was just a shame the Sadler Vectarail project went west and that the lines to Cowes and Ventnor weren't saved. If we'd had trams I think things would have been different, but we didn't and we are where we are.

Given it has a half-hourly service, I can't see why you'd suggest that it's ready for closure. I appreciate it doesn't go to Cowes or Newport, but it's clearly providing some useful service, or it would be less frequent by now. You could argue the difficulty in closing a railway might have given it some reprieve, but there has been not even the slightest suggestion of cutting it back and all the proposals have been about enhancing or extending the service.

 

[Clip]

How long is this tunnel that is an issue?
Is there anything built upon it?

How many more times are we going to read about Southern Vectis on this thread rather than just 'bus'?

 

[MarkyT]

None of those serve Ryde pier head. It's quite a walk.

That said, if the railway were to close some kind of people mover could deal with a shuttle along the pier.

If an automated people-mover system was on the pier, why not extend that along the entire rail corridor to offer a much more frequent and demand-driven service. Small, minibus-size vehicles could offer service on a similar basis to Ultra pod shuttles at Heathrow airport. Using Google type street driving capabilities such vehicles could make short road extensions beyond the rail alignment to serve the towns better, e.g.

A Ventnor solution where the pods could use the old tunnel to access the area quickly then descend to sea level on roads.

A Ryde loop serving the shopping centre better.

Road extensions would be fixed routes on largely dedicated transit lanes that could be properly surveyed and controlled for the automation technology. Sharing with light traffic would be feasible but main roads with variable traffic would be avoided ideally, although they could be crossed on the level with suitable prioritisation measures.

In route terms, much of the above could be achieved with a busway, probably with a guidance system. I'm not a fan of the physical kerb guidance technology used for such schemes however, and with bus sized vehicles total guideway width for a 'double track' could be difficult for much of the network, built as it was for a single track railway, so at least some single track sections would probably have to remain, limiting capacity and flexibility. With light narrow-track vehicles like Ultra however, arranging a double track architecture everywhere on the former rail alignment would be much easier with minimal earthworks required. The key disadvantage of a bus solution would be lack of flexibility and crew costs and difficulties. An automated system could be truly 24/7, able to operate a vehicle on demand at any time. A system like that, combining the speed and reliability of the dedicated rail corridor with the convenience of the local road network could even be a taxi and bus killer I think!

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many more times are we going to read about Southern Vectis on this thread rather than just 'bus'?

Aren't SV now the only bus operator on the island, the Council having sold Wightbus to them? Therefore to all intents and purposes they are synonymous.

 

[swt_passenger]

There was a DfT announcement about this today:

Includes:

The plans are designed to deliver the services that local people need, while putting the line on a more sustainable footing for the future. Under the proposals, the government expects to ask bidders for the next franchise to help sustain the line while suggesting ideas to turn it into a separate and self-sustaining business during the life of the franchise, with Network Rail responsible for maintaining and improving the infrastructure of the line.

Government also expects bidders to develop proposals for how they will reduce the cost of running the line, which currently costs £4 million a year to run, against an income of £1 million. This could involve the next operator securing an investment partner or working with the community and stakeholders to set up a social enterprise to take over the running of the line.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-proposals-for-isle-of-wight-rail-services-announced

So that clears everything up, not.

 

[Clip]

No idea but seems a bit strange to constantly mention their name when simply saying bus route would be easier.

 

[DarloRich]

There was a DfT announcement about this today:

Includes:



So that clears everything up, not.

a stand alone Island Line business will fail in no time on the figures presented.

 

[Chris125]

Southern Vectis have a bus station outside the station on the esplanade at Ryde which the following services run from

I'm well aware of the bus station, but you may have noticed that it's a half mile walk from the Pier Head! A walk that leaves you fully exposed to the weather and sometimes the spray from the waves too.

What might be a pleasant novelty for tourists in summer is hardly acceptable the rest of the year for regular travellers and those who commute daily across the Solent - it's laughable to suggest otherwise.

 

[WatcherZero]

Isnt this just a fudge, kick it in to the long grass while attempting to keep both the residents and the conservative MPs who hold opposing views happy.

Keep the islanders sweet by bringing forward franchising consultation,
Keep the MP sweet by saying they will look at breaking it up but not until at least after the next franchise.

 

[jon0844]

I am said tourist, who despite having had a season ticket for two years has still to this day only used the train once to the pier head - and that involved a long wait that I wouldn't do next time.

I can't comment on when it's freezing cold and windy, but I would say that the next time I visit IOW (and I've only been 4 or 5 times in my life, and until last month it was last in the 1990s) I will walk the pier to get a bus or take a cab.

The trains might be 2tph but they're not every 30 minutes. It was disappointing to arrive by boat to look at the timetable and see the train was going to leave before the doors opened to disembark. And coming back, we decided to alight at the Esplanade, have a bite to eat, then walk the pier back to avoid having to wait in Costa.

I can't speak for the locals, but the train is already like a heritage line. When you have loads of people taking photos of the train, including those who had been on the steam train, you can see that it's in many ways a tourism train. The seats were particularly uncomfortable, which didn't help (and there's no reason that even an ancient train can't get a decent refresh inside once in a while).

I did like the colourful route map, but doesn't this also make it more clear as something for tourists? I'm pretty sure all the advertising was tourism related too.

As I said, if I go back in January and walk the pier and get drenched and frozen I might change my mind, but the train seemed to serve little use for my short break. If going for a longer time, it would make even less sense compared to the bus.

However, I'd be sad to see it go. It just needs to be invested in to make it more useful - and increasing the service frequency seems like an absolute must.

Sorry to offend people on the island and speak as some outsider that doesn't know the full facts (I was only there three days) but I suspect my thoughts aren't unique.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am said tourist, who despite having had a season ticket for two years has still to this day only used the train once to the pier head

You might want to try Lichfield City to Lichfield Trent Valley; it's cheaper

 

[jon0844]

That's what I have this year. A place I've NEVER been to!

 

[The Ham]

The DfT are getting in on the act too:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...eeks-ideas-to-secure-island-lines-future.html

The Department for Transport announced on September 11 that it would undertake public consultation on proposals to secure the future of the 13·5 km isolated line on the Isle of Wight by turning it into ‘a separate and self-sustaining business’ during the life of the next South Western franchise, which is expected to begin in 2017.

Island Line is operated within the South Western franchise, and carries around 1·1 million passengers/year on a fleet of small-profile ex-London Underground trains dating back to 1938.

According to DfT the line ‘currently costs £4m a year to run, against an income of £1m’. Bidders for the next franchise will be asked to develop proposals to reduce costs, which could involve securing an investment partner or setting up a social enterprise to take over running of the line. Network Rail would be responsible for maintaining and upgrading the infrastructure.

‘I am determined that residents, employers and tourists on the Isle of Wight will continue to benefit from the service that the Island Line provides’, said Rail Minister Claire Perry. ‘We know that the line is expensive to run and in the current financial climate we need to find ways to bring down the cost to taxpayers, while ensuring that the line continues to meet the needs of the community. Giving local people more say over these services is the best way to make this happen. That is why I want to see stakeholders work with the next operator to come up with innovative solutions that will reduce the burden on the public purse, while safeguarding the line for years to come.’

The government has also given its backing to a task force being set up by Isle of Wight Council to examine the future of the island’s transport. ‘We had a very open and honest discussion with the DfT about Island Line’, said council leader Jonathan Bacon. ‘It was encouraging to hear that the government will include the Island Line in its plans for the next South Western franchise from 2017. Government have made it plain that the line is expensive to run. However, the DfT has confirmed that it will work with the council as the government develops its invitation to tender, which will give the best opportunity for the continuation of the Island Line service.’

It leads to the question how can a railway have 1 million passengers yet only have an income of £1 million? Unless they are all getting returns which cost £2 and each way they are counted as separate passengers for each leg of their trip.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

None of those serve Ryde pier head. It's quite a walk. That said, if the railway were to close some kind of people mover could deal with a shuttle along the pier.

Ever tried walking from Sandown railway station to the main shopping area of the town, let alone the hotels on the sea front?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many more times are we going to read about Southern Vectis on this thread rather than just 'bus'?

Many forum members will not be aware of the name of the bus operator on the island, so as long as people make reference to "The Island Line" rather than "the train", then I will continue to refer to "Southern Vectis" rather than "the bus".

Happy now?..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No idea but seems a bit strange to constantly mention their name when simply saying bus route would be easier.

Southern Vectis is the name of the operator of these buses, so saying just "bus route", you would be led to believe that they only operate a single bus route.

Do not forget that Newport is the transport hub of the island despite having no rail service and its bus station serves quite a number of bus services to settlements all over the island. If you saw my earlier posting, you would have seen no less than four of these bus services mentioned that serve Ryde to Newport via different routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

The DfT are getting in on the act too:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...eeks-ideas-to-secure-island-lines-future.html

I also posted the DfT statement (from their own website) this morning...

 

[MarkyT]

Ever tried walking from Sandown railway station to the main shopping area of the town, let alone the hotels on the sea front?

There are an awful lot of smaller hotels and B&Bs in the backstreets between the station and the sea front though, many within a 5 minute 1/4 mile walk of the station, and the station is in a good place for most local housing with easy access on foot from all directions. The sea front is around a 1/2 mile away.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How would the Island Line have faired if it had never been part of the SWT franchise?

 

[jon0844]

If it wasn't 'bundled in' with anything else, I am sure it would have closed ages ago.