Future of IC225 Sets

[TrainViation]

What’s the plan for LNER’s 91 + Mk4 sets once the Class 897s come in? Straight to the chopper?

 

[liamf656]

What’s the plan for LNER’s 91 + Mk4 sets once the Class 897s come in? Straight to the chopper?

I wouldn't imagine they'll be used anywhere else, no

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't imagine they'll be used anywhere else, no

I suppose it's possible TfW might want a few spare vehicles, but beyond that...

 

[TheGrew]

I suspect the 91s will be scrapped, though I would like to think the National Rail Museum might keep one for preservation. Assuming the MK4s are in reasonable condition, I would have thought they could be used to replace some of the MK3s still rolling around the network.

 

[D365]

I suspect the 91s will be scrapped, though I would like to think the National Rail Museum might keep one for preservation.

Am I right in saying that 91110 is nominated for preservation? Along with 91131 which is preserved at Boness.

Assuming the MK4s are in reasonable condition, I would have thought they could be used to replace some of the MK3s still rolling around the network.

Aside from Chiltern and ScotRail, which Mk3 sets are you referring to?

 

[TheGrew]

Am I right in saying that 91110 is nominated for preservation? Along with 91131 which is preserved at Boness.

Aside from Chiltern and ScotRail, which Mk3 sets are you referring to?

Regarding the 91s you are correct on both counts at least according to Wikipedia.
With Mk3 sets, my understanding was that many weren't PRM compliant, but the Mk4s are? In that case, it may even make sense for some rail tour operators to have them (again, assuming they can be modified to work with whatever needs to haul them).

 

[rmHawk765]

I've never considered the 897s a suitable replacement - to me they seem more suited to LNER's 'regional' operations, possibly for serving new destinations given their tri-mode capability. That would be completely wasted if they simply replace the 225 sets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never considered the 897s a suitable replacement - to me they seem more suited to LNER's 'regional' operations, possibly for serving new destinations given their tri-mode capability. That would be completely wasted if they simply replace the 225 sets.

Why? 397s have a decent enough interior that's in no way inferior to an IET. Maybe too many tables, but LNER may not lay them out the same way, TPE particularly seem to like tables. They ride like a cart but that doesn't make them regional trains.

 

[Class15]

I've never considered the 897s a suitable replacement - to me they seem more suited to LNER's 'regional' operations, possibly for serving new destinations given their tri-mode capability. That would be completely wasted if they simply replace the 225 sets.

Any reason why?

 

[xotGD]

Northern need extra stock...

 

[Jturner98]

What’s the long term plan with the Euston-Stirling Lumo service? Maybe the 225s could replace the 222s?

 

[hexagon789]

What’s the long term plan with the Euston-Stirling Lumo service? Maybe the 225s could replace the 222s?

New 80x, with the 222s then being available for their Cardiff/Edinburgh application.

 

[Topological]

I suppose it's possible TfW might want a few spare vehicles, but beyond that...

This is my expectation.

Though I wish that TfW would not keep trying to make ECML sets work on a regional service. Especially given that the Mk4 do not work anything like as well with the 67s as they do with the 91s.

This year the 7 sets on TfW completed their allocations on 0 working days. They probably would have done yesterday, but obviously the storm stopped that and now today Shrewsbury - Hereford is closed.

 

[TrainViation]

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if ScotRail took a few to boost their Inter7City fleet as electrification progresses, or to operate newer routes.

They bought 40 year old HSTs, so they definitely could buy 35 year old 91s, meaning age doesn’t really matter as long as it’s functioning and reliable. (Not that HSTs are…)

 

[JamesT]

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if ScotRail took a few to boost their Inter7City fleet as electrification progresses, or to operate newer routes.

They bought 40 year old HSTs, so they definitely could buy 35 year old 91s, meaning age doesn’t really matter as long as it’s functioning and reliable. (Not that HSTs are…)

Scotrail issued a tender for HST replacement over a year ago. The consensus on the forum is that Class 222s will be going there, though there hasn't been an official announcement.
I think the HST experience has probably killed off any enthusiasm in Scotland for such old stock, given how unreliable it's been.

 

[JonathanH]

They bought 40 year old HSTs, so they definitely could buy 35 year old 91s, meaning age doesn’t really matter as long as it’s functioning and reliable. (Not that HSTs are…)

Which Scotrail Inter7City route currently worked by HSTs is expected to be fully electrified within the reasonable lifetime of the class 91s?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hopefully a couple of sets will be saved by one of our deep-pocketed preservationists... if only to have something period-correct to run with the "Flying Badger".

 

[D365]

They bought 40 year old HSTs, so they definitely could buy 35 year old 91s, meaning age doesn’t really matter as long as it’s functioning and reliable. (Not that HSTs are…)

I'm not aware that ScotRail has purchased any HSTs outright. Nor that there would be any impetus for ScotRail to purchase Class 91 or Class 90 locomotives.

 

[nilvaj395]

I've never considered the 897s a suitable replacement - to me they seem more suited to LNER's 'regional' operations, possibly for serving new destinations given their tri-mode capability. That would be completely wasted if they simply replace the 225 sets.

I do see this point somewhat, even if I agree with the others in that they are capable of being equal intercity trains to the IET given a chance. Much like how the 805s have made some really good changes compared to earlier IETs (mainly lighting and seating but also other interior bits and bobs), it can be done for these, too.

The issues I see are with CAF suspension, which I find really affects how 'quality' it feels overall and the current seat layout. I can see why they might be viewed as not 'true intercity' than an IET even if their interior spec is equal if not better than the IET's in cases like the 397's vs 802's.

Extremely niche, but I hate how small the interior LED scrolling displays are. I hope they replace those with something akin to the 805's and make them wider so you dont have to scroll the text for 500 years to see all the information.

 

[Helvellyn]

I suspect given the IC225s will be approaching 40 years old when the 897s arrive to replace them that they would be in need of major overhaul for reuse anywhere else - If they are anything like the LNER IC125s that went to EMR they definitely would!

 

[YorksLad12]

I expect that a well-known Open Access advocate* will come up with a plan for a service from [random point] to [random point] calling at several out of the way places, once the trans-Pennine route is wired...

*I dare not speak his name. Like the Candyman or Beetlejuice.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think the breakers yard is the only place for them, as others have said 40 years isn’t exactly a bad life span. I am not sure what the design life was.

The route availability is too small for someone to form a charter set out of them.

I doubt they would have enough business to bother with the old rail tour from on the WCML or the electric parts of GWR.

 

[43096]

I think the HST experience has probably killed off any enthusiasm in Scotland for such old stock, given how unreliable it's been.

The HST experience that ScotRail have had has been almost entirely self-inflicted damage.

 

[D365]

I think the breakers yard is the only place for them, as others have said 40 years isn’t exactly a bad life span. I am not sure what the design life was.

30-35 years for the Class 91s.

 

[Transilien]

I do see this point somewhat, even if I agree with the others in that they are capable of being equal intercity trains to the IET given a chance. Much like how the 805s have made some really good changes compared to earlier IETs (mainly lighting and seating but also other interior bits and bobs), it can be done for these, too.

The issues I see are with CAF suspension, which I find really affects how 'quality' it feels overall and the current seat layout. I can see why they might be viewed as not 'true intercity' than an IET even if their interior spec is equal if not better than the IET's in cases like the 397's vs 802's.

Extremely niche, but I hate how small the interior LED scrolling displays are. I hope they replace those with something akin to the 805's and make them wider so you dont have to scroll the text for 500 years to see all the information.

Do the mk4s even have pis screens and automatic announcements?

 

[nilvaj395]

Do the mk4s even have pis screens and automatic announcements?

I was referring to the new CAF stock

But if that was an actual question from what I recall, they have LCD screens at each end of the coach. Not sure about announcements as I don't use them so I will leave that to someone else

 

[Transilien]

I was referring to the new CAF stock

Yes, your statement about the CAF stock got me thinking about the situation on the trains that they are replacing.

 

[Halish Railway]

No doubt some start-up spot-hire company will try and get their hands on them for charter trains and to fill rolling stock shortages (and inevitably have their business model fail).

Is the Mk4's route availability good enough and gauging issues not too big a problem for them to replace older coaching stock on PLPR trains?

 

[The Foghorn]

I suspect the coaches will need bogie overhauls by the time they stand down. The locos will need expensive attention too.

I think a charter operator might question whether an extra 76 seats in a rake might make more financial sense than a DVT if terminus stations can be avoided on trips.

The 91s are good at what they do, but are very high geared and thus slow starting which can be a disadvantage, especially on routes where faster acceleration is prevelant.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No doubt some start-up spot-hire company will try and get their hands on them for charter trains and to fill rolling stock shortages (and inevitably have their business model fail).

Is the Mk4's route availability good enough and gauging issues not too big a problem for them to replace older coaching stock on PLPR trains?

PLPR?