Future of Class 707

[spark001uk]

Also if they did halt supply/ditch the 707s, it would be a big disappointment to the passengers, who have been promised the extra capacity trains from May? Wouldn't be the best of starts to get off to with their customers.

 

[AlexNL]

Assuming building hasn't started on the 717s yet, couldn't the current builds of the 707s be re-jigged into becoming 717s, with the 8 already delivered being altered accordingly? I know that would mean new cab ends, but cheaper than having a load of excess 707s to move on?

I don't think so, as SWT has a contract with Angel Trains for the delivery of 30 trains of the 707 type which they need in their current franchise, and AT has a contract with Siemens to deliver those units. These 30 units will be delivered to AT/SWT and SWT will pay for them until their franchise expires.. The 717's are a different build which is financed by a different company (Rock Rail) and thus falls under a different contract.

If SWT were to cancel the 707's, they would have to pay Angel Trains an early termination fee. Angel Trains would then have to convince Siemens to take the trains back (and suffer severe penalties for breach of contract), or AT would have to sell the trains to Rock Rail who would then have to renegotiate their deal with Siemens. This would again mean fines due to breach of contract and apart from that, Siemens would have to re-engineer the trains as the 717's might be specced differently.

Simply put, SWT aren't going to cancel their 707 order because First/MTR have different rolling stock needs. Once the SWT franchise ends, the 707s aren't Stagecoach's problem so why would they cancel the order?

 

[SF-02]

It's well established that Southeastern do not have depot space for additional units - even the 377s allocated to them are still based at Selhurst. Having said that, would a cascade from South West to South East allow all of the Angel trains owned networkers (i.e. those that have not been retractioned, 465/2 465/9 and 466) to be taken off lease? The 700s could work similar diagrams as the current 5 car 376s, and 458s could replace the 465/9s on longer distance work.

I'm fairly certain that the infrastructure isn't there yet to handle that many 5 car units, and the prospect of training staff on two new multiple units from two different manufacturers does not sound pleasant, but even if one of the two fleets were to transfer it would bring about significant improvements to capacity.

In all likelihood the new SE franchise will probably go ahead and order yet another new fleet, but running the numbers briefly made it appear as if the suggestion might not be as odd as I first thought.

But its the same old problem as the 376s at Southeastern. 10 car trains on a railway 90% on the way to being fully 12 car after millions have been spent. It's a short term boost but not a solution for 10 years time, which isn't great for brand new trains and an area projected for mass population increases away from those areas near Cross rail.

 

[Starmill]

A few weeks ago people were seriously saying that GTR (SN) had to use the 442s to the end of their contract...

Did GTR have to pay any penalties for not using the 442s? Did they have a lease end date far into the future?

I had been under the impression that they were only leasing a handful (4?) at the time. If penalties were paid on 4 units that's rather different to Northern's 30+.

 

[MCR247]

But its the same old problem as the 376s at Southeastern. 10 car trains on a railway 90% on the way to being fully 12 car after millions have been spent. It's a short term boost but not a solution for 10 years time, which isn't great for brand new trains and an area projected for mass population increases away from those areas near Cross rail.

You could add a motored carriage into each unit? Might also help with acceleration

 

[D365]

Did GTR have to pay any penalties for not using the 442s? Did they have a lease end date far into the future?

I thought that the Class 442s had to be replaced under the terms of the new Southern franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought that the Class 442s had to be replaced under the terms of the new Southern franchise.

The question is really only about the 6 units that were intended to be kept for Eastbourne duties until some date in the future, always assumed to be in 2018.

Some of us thought that they'd go as soon as GTR had enough 377s to replace them, and that's what seems to have happened in the event.

 

[MCR247]

They're still leased by GTR though aren't they?

 

[Starmill]

The GTR Franchise Agreement included replacement of all of the Gatwick Express ones. My recollection is that they were going off-lease but the remaining ones weren't. Perhaps the 6 not being taken up on SW are still leased to GTR?

 

[swt_passenger]

They're still leased by GTR though aren't they?

Yes. I should have said "go out of normal use". I can't see them remaining with GTR for too long now though.

 

[Deepgreen]

There's another thread for 442s (at least one!).