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Future of Class 707

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southern442

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I thought the issue with the Class 377/5s remaining at Southeastern in the long term, was that they aren't compatible with the Class 375s? Or is this no longer a hinderance?

I also assume that Southern aren't needing any more dual-voltage 377 units.

The only dual voltage route they have at the moment is the West London route which seems to be ok now, plus they will have the 377/2s back soon. I don't know when or if the Marshlink line is due to be electrified, but if it is, there would be a need for some there, unless there is sufficient provision for OHLE on the current units.
 
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southern442

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And where will you get these magical 10-car length depot facilities? I thought that the 707s were specced like that because 5-car was the absolute limit on stock length?

It shouldn't be too much of a stretch, most sheds seem physically long enough to take them.
 

Roast Veg

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There's a very large question mark over Marshlink operation, and it may well not stay with Southern post upgrades.
 

tbtc

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Well, speaking as an East Midlander, I think this whole thing is is just scandalous.

Up here in the real world, where the only "new" stock we get for local services is about 30 years old, I can't believe this. You lot in the south live in some kind of parallel universe to the rest of us.

I don't know where you are in the East Midlands, but was it scandalous when Midland Mainline replaced the modern 170s with 222s after only a couple of years?

Is it scandalous that people are talking about replacing the modern 222s with new EMUs? Or that the mid life 91s/Mk4s are going to be replaced by IEP?

Some "local" East Midlands services were upgraded from 150s to 156/158 operation after just a few years, back in the 1980s - it's not exclusive to London.

If Siemens win the tender I'd expect them to manufacture new motor and trailer coaches with toilets to add to the existing 30 x 5 car trains making 30 x 10 car trains now with toilets and 4 (or even 5) coaches powered. Hey presto - 10 car suburban, high-powered metro trains. This way they wouldn't need to change anything on the current 707s, just add what's missing from the SWT spec.

Copy and paste the above to make the rest of the fleet up to 750 vehicles.

And where will you get these magical 10-car length depot facilities? I thought that the 707s were specced like that because 5-car was the absolute limit on stock length?

Aren't First partly replacing the 707s with ten car EMUs?

In which case, presumably their alchemists have found a way of magicking up some ten car depot facilities?
 

43096

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I would say Northern could have them, but were already getting a bit of new stock, they'd be good for 319 replacement however. Perhaps, sigh, southern could have them..

So the fact that the 319s are contractually signed up to Northern for the franchise is irrelevant then? Or are you proposing paying for two lots of trains?

The commercial naivety on here is quite staggering at times...
 

D365

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So the fact that the 319s are contractually signed up to Northern for the franchise is irrelevant then? Or are you proposing paying for two lots of trains?

Perhaps it would be worth giving us an indication of the contracted length of these leases.
 

DerekC

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If Siemens win the tender I'd expect them to manufacture new motor and trailer coaches with toilets to add to the existing 30 x 5 car trains making 30 x 10 car trains now with toilets and 4 (or even 5) coaches powered. Hey presto - 10 car suburban, high-powered metro trains. This way they wouldn't need to change anything on the current 707s, just add what's missing from the SWT spec.

Copy and paste the above to make the rest of the fleet up to 750 vehicles.

If you make enough new vehicles it would be perfectly possible to end up with 5 car units with 60% motored axles and two toilets per unit, for example. The permutations are endless! Might be better to wait and see what has actually been agreed.
 

158756

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Perhaps it would be worth giving us an indication of the contracted length of these leases.

Northern's 319s are leased until April 2025 according to Porterbrook's website. Nothing will change before then, and I think there's a potential franchise extension after that. Even in the unlikely event that the 707s were going for scrap and available for £1, Northern couldn't have them.
 

D365

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Even in the unlikely event that the 707s were going for scrap and available for £1, Northern couldn't have them.

If they were available for £1, surely there would be any number of takers.

I could have a driving car for my garden ;)

[/wibble]
 

Goldfish62

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I think "construction" is a fairly well-known thing done all over the place these days, I don't think we need to call it magic any more.

Probably also the case any proposal by Stagecoach is the best thing since sliced bread, but exactly the same proposal made by First would be rubbish/impossible /magic.
 

notlob.divad

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Northern's 319s are leased until April 2025 according to Porterbrook's website. Nothing will change before then, and I think there's a potential franchise extension after that. Even in the unlikely event that the 707s were going for scrap and available for £1, Northern couldn't have them.

Any (sensible) contract would have release clauses in. If Northern. Could get 707s for £1 it would almost certainly with their while triggering said release clause and paying whatever penalty there may be. As they would save the money many times over. So never say never. However I am inclined to agree it is unlikely to happen.
 

notlob.divad

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What does amaze me about rolling stock orders at the moment is. Newer and in this case brand new EMUs are being sidelined despite the fact the UK has a modest surplus of them, whilst the diesel powered fleet which is woefully short of stock and still struggling by with aging trains. The only fleet of DMUs likely to come free soon are the limited 185s from TPE which most people seem agreed are pretty limited in where they can be deployed.

I am not complaining as such, just observing that the overall decision making process seems quite flawed at times. It would be great to see a modest surplus of a variety of layouts and power sourced trains to allow TOCs to grow their service when required and also an attempt to bring down the leasing costs of units.
 

swt_passenger

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Northern's 319s are leased until April 2025 according to Porterbrook's website. Nothing will change before then, and I think there's a potential franchise extension after that. Even in the unlikely event that the 707s were going for scrap and available for £1, Northern couldn't have them.

A few weeks ago people were seriously saying that GTR (SN) had to use the 442s to the end of their contract...
 

3141

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Any (sensible) contract would have release clauses in. If Northern. Could get 707s for £1 it would almost certainly with their while triggering said release clause and paying whatever penalty there may be. As they would save the money many times over. So never say never. However I am inclined to agree it is unlikely to happen.

And if it did happen, there are lots of people who'd complain about being forced to have the South's cast-off trains.
 

HH

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Any (sensible) contract would have release clauses in.

Not so; a release clause would increase the cost; increasing the cost would make your bid more expensive and you probably wouldn't win the franchise.
 

Deepgreen

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As I understood the quote, Clifton did not say £15 million for each unit, but £15 million to make each unit (implying 'in the fleet') AC capable. That's £500,000 per unit which seems about right - pantograph, transformer, rectifier group, fitting, any soft- or firmware changes and testing that line isn't connected to earth...

BillyA's post #212 yields a per unit cost of around £440,000 for the Class 455s. This includes three phase inverters and four new traction motors, so the 707 refit price seems a bit high but, on the other hand, the figure quoted might be adrift. In any event they are both in the same ballpark.

Then he should have said 'the fleet' - by saying "each unit" (which doesn't imply the whole fleet at all), the wording can only be taken to mean 'per unit' - very poor phrasing at best.
 

D365

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And if it did happen, there are lots of people who'd complain about being forced to have the South's cast-off trains.

I do wonder if the same complaints were made when the Class 508s were transferred to Merseyrail.
 

southern442

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What does amaze me about rolling stock orders at the moment is. Newer and in this case brand new EMUs are being sidelined despite the fact the UK has a modest surplus of them, whilst the diesel powered fleet which is woefully short of stock and still struggling by with aging trains. The only fleet of DMUs likely to come free soon are the limited 185s from TPE which most people seem agreed are pretty limited in where they can be deployed.

I am not complaining as such, just observing that the overall decision making process seems quite flawed at times. It would be great to see a modest surplus of a variety of layouts and power sourced trains to allow TOCs to grow their service when required and also an attempt to bring down the leasing costs of units.

And people are still rejecting the class 230's! Without trying to start a debate, people need to realise that conversions such as these are needed. The comments people make about them not being very good units are valid at times but that doesn't matter because what other choice is there?

Although the class 195's will come into service soon which should free some 153's (and pacers but they need to be gotten rid of) which must be of some use somewhere. Plus the 385's will leave a handful of Scotrail units spare.

Having lots of EMU's isn't necessarily a bad thing, but electrification is not progressing quick enough for all of them to be put to decent use. At the moment the problem is lots of brand new trains replacing mid-life EMU's. If this was to happen in 6 or 7 years time then it wouldn't be such a bad thing, but right now it's probably not economically smart to scrap units that aren't quite life expired yet. What should be happening is the new trains replacing DMU's.

Another problem is the new company going mad with power and announcing the replacement of all it's fleet because they have the money to do so. This is silly in my opinion because, in reality, the public don't care about new trains. They only care about 'new' trains. Of course it's good press to stand in the depot with a shiny new train, but the press is just as good if you stand in the depot with a shiny refurbished train. The public and media don't notice because they simply have better things to do than look into the specifics when it comes to shiny clean trains.
 

southern442

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And if it did happen, there are lots of people who'd complain about being forced to have the South's cast-off trains.

Linking to what I said in my previous post, give it a clean and a new lick of paint, and keep your mouth shut, and nobody will suspect a thing. :lol: The majority of the public don't know, and don't really care about, specifics when it comes to the rail industry, and they will only complain about getting cast-off's if it is pointed out to them. I doubt the average guy from East Didsbury will see a shiny, clean, re-fitted train rolling in for Manchester at 07:26, and then start sniffing around saying "hold on a second, this is a class 319, which previously spent 1987 to 2014 IN THE SOUTH!"
 

Feathers44

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Absolutely. Look at the introduction of the 456s into SWT land. They looked good and worked well.

How many people actually realised that these things have been around since the early 90's?

In this case, I'm warming to the sleight of hand idea that what we'll really get is slightly retooled 707's in any case.
 

NotATrainspott

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What does amaze me about rolling stock orders at the moment is. Newer and in this case brand new EMUs are being sidelined despite the fact the UK has a modest surplus of them, whilst the diesel powered fleet which is woefully short of stock and still struggling by with aging trains. The only fleet of DMUs likely to come free soon are the limited 185s from TPE which most people seem agreed are pretty limited in where they can be deployed.

I am not complaining as such, just observing that the overall decision making process seems quite flawed at times. It would be great to see a modest surplus of a variety of layouts and power sourced trains to allow TOCs to grow their service when required and also an attempt to bring down the leasing costs of units.

And people are still rejecting the class 230's! Without trying to start a debate, people need to realise that conversions such as these are needed. The comments people make about them not being very good units are valid at times but that doesn't matter because what other choice is there?

Although the class 195's will come into service soon which should free some 153's (and pacers but they need to be gotten rid of) which must be of some use somewhere. Plus the 385's will leave a handful of Scotrail units spare.

Having lots of EMU's isn't necessarily a bad thing, but electrification is not progressing quick enough for all of them to be put to decent use. At the moment the problem is lots of brand new trains replacing mid-life EMU's. If this was to happen in 6 or 7 years time then it wouldn't be such a bad thing, but right now it's probably not economically smart to scrap units that aren't quite life expired yet. What should be happening is the new trains replacing DMU's.

Another problem is the new company going mad with power and announcing the replacement of all it's fleet because they have the money to do so. This is silly in my opinion because, in reality, the public don't care about new trains. They only care about 'new' trains. Of course it's good press to stand in the depot with a shiny new train, but the press is just as good if you stand in the depot with a shiny refurbished train. The public and media don't notice because they simply have better things to do than look into the specifics when it comes to shiny clean trains.

There is some justification for this 'madness'. Remember that while only a relatively small proportion of the overall rail network is electrified, those electrified miles carry a disproportionately large number of passengers. The lines which are electrified are either fast InterCity and freight trunk routes and/or suburban commuter routes into major cities, particularly London but also Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow. Because of this nature electrified services tend to be much, much busier than diesel ones.

A packed Pacer service somewhere in the forgotten regions of England and Wales might be uncomfortable for passengers but it's not actually going to be that busy on an objective level. The main limit to capacity here is the available diesel rolling stock. If more trains were available, it would be trivial to run longer services as there are rarely platform length issues and it is often possible to run additional services as more paths can be easily made available.

All of these huge numbers of electric trains are being ordered for routes where this is not the case. In many cases, the trains that are being replaced are already as long as is practically possible on the infrastructure. 12 car trains are pretty much the absolute limit on any route, while some others are restricted to 8 cars due to depot and severe platform length constraints. The Thameslink route, for instance, only has some 8 car trains because that's the maximum feasible on some of the important stopping patterns and routes. Current passenger numbers are either overfilling or close to overfilling the trains, while future projections suggest that the problem is only going to get worse. Increasing capacity beyond this requires major investment of some kind, and once the infrastructure is at its practical limit the next best option is to optimise the trains. Instead of having individual 3-5 car units which get joined up at peak times, you have full length single units where every possible metre of length is used to carry passengers. You have extra wide doors and gangways to minimise dwell times, shaving off precious seconds that are required when trains are coming in at 150 second intervals. You make trains lighter so that the track doesn't get as hammered, meaning less need for disruptive and expensive infrastructure repairs. Depot space is at a premium near London so you have to make trains as reliable as you possibly can, so that as many of them as possible can be squeezed into what depot space is available.

London commuter services really shouldn't be thought of as normal National Rail services, either by us on this forum or by the powers-that-be. Their requirements are now much more aligned with traditional metro operations such as the London Underground. These metro systems are absolutely vital to the economic well-being of the city and so they do things to achieve maximum efficiency which traditional rail services simply do not need.
 

Deepgreen

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Absolutely. Look at the introduction of the 456s into SWT land. They looked good and worked well.

How many people actually realised that these things have been around since the early 90's?

In this case, I'm warming to the sleight of hand idea that what we'll really get is slightly retooled 707's in any case.

Apart from the intensely cramped seating, the destination indicators that have never worked since they were installed, the PIS that has been very unreliable and the odd-looking remaining ex-toilet window that now has a blank wall next to it because it wasn't thought worth fitting a standard-sized window there.
 

HH

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In this case, I'm warming to the sleight of hand idea that what we'll really get is slightly retooled 707's in any case.

Warm to it all you like, it's pretty unlikely. Firstly the Minister would have to agree and he's not going to like the possible media storm over what constitutes a new unit. Secondly there's the thorny question of how much the ROSCO could charge for the refurbished stock; First/MTR & DfT would expect to pay less than for completely new stock, which would be hard for the ROSCO to swallow, given the units would now have cost as much as IEPs. Finally there would have to be all sorts of contract renegotiations, including the Franchise Agreement, where First/MTR and DfT would take very different views about how the change would affect costs and revenue. By the time all this was sorted out it would be too late.
 

Roast Veg

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It's well established that Southeastern do not have depot space for additional units - even the 377s allocated to them are still based at Selhurst. Having said that, would a cascade from South West to South East allow all of the Angel trains owned networkers (i.e. those that have not been retractioned, 465/2 465/9 and 466) to be taken off lease? The 700s could work similar diagrams as the current 5 car 376s, and 458s could replace the 465/9s on longer distance work.

I'm fairly certain that the infrastructure isn't there yet to handle that many 5 car units, and the prospect of training staff on two new multiple units from two different manufacturers does not sound pleasant, but even if one of the two fleets were to transfer it would bring about significant improvements to capacity.

In all likelihood the new SE franchise will probably go ahead and order yet another new fleet, but running the numbers briefly made it appear as if the suggestion might not be as odd as I first thought.
 

spark001uk

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I imagine the choices are either take the 707s on, or halt current builds of them and re-jig the order into becoming 717s (unlikely imo).
 
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Class 170101

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Call me cynical: I suspect they may well enter long-term service on SW(T/R) anyway. My guess is that this is a gambit by either DfT (no fan of ROSCOs) or First/MTR to reduce the lease cost. I doubt the toilet issue will be a deal-breaker if Angel can offer them at an attractive enough price.

I have to agree with this.

Also, the cost of staff training and re-vinyling units is a drop in the ocean, compared to the millions of pounds that units cost. We seem to be good at focussing on the pennies here, rather than worrying about the pounds.

The costs might be. However it does depend upon establishment. Its all well and good sending drivers training but lots of training in quick succession is going to stretch the establishment of drivers to its limits and maybe beyond, this could result in cancellations if staff are unwilling to work overtime, which in itself has an additional cost.
 
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