Future of Class 455s at Southern

[Topgun333]

Obviously the 455s are elderly units having been built in the early 1980s. However, South Western announced a £23m refurbishment of its 91 units a couple of years back that includes new traction equipment. They obviously hope to operate the 455s for some years yet.

I've not seen any plans from Southern/Thameslink about their 46 455s though. Do they intend to keep their stock operational for years to come and do they have refurbishment plans in place?

 

[hassaanhc]

Obviously the 455s are elderly units having been built in the early 1980s. However, South Western announced a £23m refurbishment of its 91 units a couple of years back that includes new traction equipment. They obviously hope to operate the 455s for some years yet.

I've not seen any plans from Southern/Thameslink about their 46 455s though. Do they intend to keep their stock operational for years to come and do they have refurbishment plans in place?

Southern have just completed (or are on their last 1-2 units) of a refresh programme that has been running since 2012:
New flooring
New ceiling-mounted grab poles near the doors
New seat moquette
New internal door buttons
Repaint

 

[swt_passenger]

The GTR franchise announcement just said that numbers in normal use would be reduced, but there was nothing more detailed. I took it to mean that normal traction in the metro area would be 377 variants, with 455s being used only as peak 'top ups'.

No information about SWT style retractioning has ever been published, AFAICR.

 

[Feathers44]

I didn't realise they'd done anything with them! I don't get on them often but when I have it's been juddery/sticking doors and dingy interiors. When compared to the SWT fleet, they give the impression of being on their last legs.

Perhaps I've only seen non-refreshed ones?

 

[455driver]

The SWT re-tractioning was mainly to reduce the amount of maintenance the 455s needed because Wimbledon has had to take on the maintenance of the 456s and if they tried to add that to the current 455 maintenance there wasnt enough staff or shed space available.
By reducing the maintenance requirements of the 455s there are enough staff and shed space available without the expense of acquiring more land and staff.

 

[physics34]

on the subject of southerns 455s, they have been transferred from Selhurst to Stewarts Lane, with some 377s moving from BI to SU too, as space is required at BI for the 387s.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If Southern were to axe their 455s and go for a new build, how likely is it that SWT would go for a new build to replace theirs as a follow on order?

 

[Juniper Driver]

I heard that SWT were going to get their 455's at a later date but am not sure how true this is.

 

[AM9]

If Southern were to axe their 455s and go for a new build, how likely is it that SWT would go for a new build to replace theirs as a follow on order?

Surely if SWT wanted any new build metro stock, they would extend the Desiro City order. That would further simplify their maintenance regime.

 

[CosherB]

Obviously the 455s are elderly units having been built in the early 1980s. However, South Western announced a £23m refurbishment of its 91 units a couple of years back that includes new traction equipment. They obviously hope to operate the 455s for some years yet.

I've not seen any plans from Southern/Thameslink about their 46 455s though. Do they intend to keep their stock operational for years to come and do they have refurbishment plans in place?

Elderly?! And DRS are going to be using Mk 2 carriage stock that's at least a further 10 to 20 years older on Northern routes - now that's getting on for elderly! lol

 

[al.currie93]

Southern will never replace their class 455s... I simply will not allow it

 

[cjmillsnun]

Elderly?! And DRS are going to be using Mk 2 carriage stock that's at least a further 10 to 20 years older on Northern routes - now that's getting on for elderly! lol

Considering the traction motors are from the 4SUBs, yes they're elderly. They make the 442s traction package look thoroughly modern in comparison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Southern were to axe their 455s and go for a new build, how likely is it that SWT would go for a new build to replace theirs as a follow on order?

I would suspect very unlikely. SWT and Porterbrook have spend an absolute ton on their 455s and are upgrading the traction package to something modern.

I suspect SWT's 455s may well outlast the CEPs

 

[Murph]

Considering the traction motors are from the 4SUBs, yes they're elderly. They make the 442s traction package look thoroughly modern in comparison.

Electric motors have an almost indefinite service life if they are well designed and manufactured, if they receive suitable care in terms of maintenance and refurbishment, and don't get thrashed to death. If they are still appropriate for the purpose, and the heavy bits are good, they can be repeatedly rewound and fitted with new bearings to be almost good as new each time.

 

[455driver]

I suspect SWT's 455s may well outlast the CEPs

They already have! :roll:

Oooohhhhh you mean in longevity!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I heard that SWT were going to get their 455's at a later date but am not sure how true this is.

If SWT did get all of Southern's 455 how much would it cost to refurb them to the same standard as their own 455s, inc restoring the corridor connection, and new traction motors (same as what SWT are installing on theirs)?

Would it get anywhere near the cost of an equivalent new build of Desiro Cities?

 

[jopsuk]

It would cost a lot. Especially with the Desiros having been ordered. Plus, they're getting 5-car (100m) Desiro City sets, to operate mainly as 10-car (200m) trains. When the 455/456 fleet get replaced the same will happen I would expect (though much of that will be handled by Crossrail 2).

It wouldn't be as expensive as the new build, but it would not be economically viable nor would it make operational sense. There's little scope for creating 5-car units either, especially as 455s have a single motor coach in a 4-car unit.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What about taking only the motor vehicles from the Southern 455s and inserting them into some of the SWT 455s, thus creating 5 car 455s with a much better power to weight ratio?

DTSO-MSO-TSO-MSO-DTSO

You'd then only need to refit one carriage, plus give it the traction upgrade, and not mess about re-doing the cab ends either.

 

[Murph]

What about taking only the motor vehicles from the Southern 455s and inserting them into some of the SWT 455s, thus creating 5 car 455s with a much better power to weight ratio?

DTSO-MSO-TSO-MSO-DTSO

You'd then only need to refit one carriage, plus give it the traction upgrade, and not mess about re-doing the cab ends either.

The current setup has approx 750kW for 4 cars at max 75mph. Do they really need significantly more power?

 

[455driver]

The current setup has approx 750kW for 4 cars at max 75mph. Do they really need significantly more power?

No but if they were made up to 5 coach trains using the TSO they would be slower, Peters idea would give them an abundance of power and so more able to keep or make up time.

Going a stage further, why not make some up with an extra MC and some with an extra TSO, end result is semi permanent 10 coach sets with 3 motor coaches.

 

[Murph]

No but if they were made up to 5 coach trains using the TSO they would be slower, Peters idea would give them an abundance of power and so more able to keep or make up time.

Yeah, I guess a 5 car formation might justify it, if 5/10 is the preferable size.

Going a stage further, why not make some up with an extra MC and some with an extra TSO, end result is semi permanent 10 coach sets with 3 motor coaches.

And, a month later, there's some 10-car sets zooming around with 4 Ms, and some crawling around with 2 Ms… Or am I being too cynical and not giving enough credit to the depot staff to ensure that never happens? Didn't someone mention an all-trailer train being deposited in a platform after a split in a bygone era, as the only motors vanished into the distance?

 

[swt_passenger]

I think that SN 455s were a possible option but superseded by the Desiro City decision. When the tender was issued for the requirement that eventually became Desiro City, it did include the possibility of using secondhand DC units, with the SN 455s being about the only obvious fleet that fitted the requirement to be compatible with the existing inner suburban rolling stock:

Supply of electric suburban passenger rolling stock. Supply of a fleet of electric suburban heavy rail passenger railway stock. The rolling stock may be either new build or an existing fleet. Where the fleet is new build it must be dual voltage and the chosen supplier will be required to enter into a maintenance support arrangement for the period following the introduction of the whole fleet up to approximately 31.3.2019. Where the fleet is an existing fleet it must operate on a DC network and be compatible with an existing fleet operated by Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited and modified to meet its requirements.

http://www.publictenders.net/node/2303409

In the negotiation period it is probable that the likelihood of Crossrail 2 being built was firming up to the extent that they were now looking at the proportion of the SWT inner suburban fleet (at end CP5 figures) that would still be needed if large areas of the SWT network (the main suburban side) was transferred to TfL.

So whatever that smaller number is, it's all they need in the longer term, and the Desiro City order (with options) is probably sized to meet that requirement.

 

[jopsuk]

No but if they were made up to 5 coach trains using the TSO they would be slower, Peters idea would give them an abundance of power and so more able to keep or make up time.

Going a stage further, why not make some up with an extra MC and some with an extra TSO, end result is semi permanent 10 coach sets with 3 motor coaches.

Or given the crossrail/Thameslink fashion for long fixed formations remove the excess cabs and make them properly ten-car units with three motor coaches- by my calculation you could get 45 units and you could even ditch 41 out of 43 of the coaches from the 508s. Fixed formations would also allow the cab ends to be properly weather sealed

But this is wibble

 

[swt_passenger]

Or given the crossrail/Thameslink fashion for long fixed formations remove the excess cabs and make them properly ten-car units with three motor coaches- by my calculation you could get 45 units and you could even ditch 41 out of 43 of the coaches from the 508s. Fixed formations would also allow the cab ends to be properly weather sealed

But this is wibble

You're being unfair on yourself. SWT did a trial of a ten car 455 formation, made up 4+3+3, IIRC. Clearly it's been overtaken by events, but some serious trials were definitely undertaken before the present plans were firmed up. I wonder if those trials were planned before the 456s became available? I always thought the 456 transfer was bit of a fast ball for SWT, after all they'd originally hoped for a completely different solution to the CP4 HLOS capacity...

 

[jopsuk]

You're being unfair on yourself. SWT did a trial of a ten car 455 formation, made up 4+3+3, IIRC. Clearly it's been overtaken by events, but some serious trials were definitely undertaken before the present plans were firmed up.

the "wibble" is my idea of fixed-formations

 

[dgl]

What about having 2 4 car sets coupled but with no driving trailer instead using half a 456 on each end, would that work? The extra non driving trailers would come from 455's displaced from southern.

 

[hassaanhc]

What about having 2 4 car sets coupled but with no driving trailer instead using half a 456 on each end, would that work? The extra non driving trailers would come from 455's displaced from southern.

The driving trailers on both the 455 and 456 have the compressors, while the 456 Driving Motors do not. Therefore the compressors would need to be moved for your idea to work.

 

[455driver]

The driving trailers on both the 455 and 456 have the compressors, while the 456 Driving Motors do not. Therefore the compressors would need to be moved for your idea to work.

The TSOs had a compressor when they were built (giving the 4 coach set 3 compressors) but these were removed soon after entry to service, the framework for them is still visible.

 

[Juniper Driver]

The TSOs had a compressor when they were built (giving the 4 coach set 3 compressors) but these were removed soon after entry to service, the framework for them is still visible.

Very true,even I knew that.

 

[jopsuk]

What about having 2 4 car sets coupled but with no driving trailer instead using half a 456 on each end, would that work? The extra non driving trailers would come from 455's displaced from southern.

Or form 10-car fixed sets using 2x455+1x456? Turn the 455 cabs into passenger space. That would, of course, only be possible for 24 sets.

 

[cjmillsnun]

What about taking only the motor vehicles from the Southern 455s and inserting them into some of the SWT 455s, thus creating 5 car 455s with a much better power to weight ratio?

DTSO-MSO-TSO-MSO-DTSO

You'd then only need to refit one carriage, plus give it the traction upgrade, and not mess about re-doing the cab ends either.

One issue with that.

SWTs 455s belong to Porterbrook, and SN's belong to Eversholt IIRC.