Future of Class 379

[Bikeman78]

Need a decent bit of suburban electrification to swallow up 30 units. But it needs to be done quickly !. And what is more likely at the moment is that existing electrification gets scaled back.

Northern has around 100 class 150s which ought to be replaced in a few years. I wonder what the plan is. Too late for the 379s as it will take too long to electrify any useful routes. They should have carried on doing routes around Manchester. There would have been some combination of 321/350/379 available.

 

[Magdalia]

I never understood why the GN had their 317s replaced with 365s so soon

Speed. Class 365s are 10mph faster than class 317s on 1/200 gradients, and there's a lot of that on the ECML. Class 365s are at least half a minute quicker to Potters Bar on down trains and therefore take less up less precious ECML capacity. Same applies Peterborough-Huntingdon on the up line.

the 365s on GN were able to achieve significant growth thanks to their superior ambience

Traffic growth on the GN was due to the huge expansion of employment in London, electrification to Kings Lynn and reduced journey times following increase of line speeds between Hitchin and Cambridge. Very few commuters make their travel choices on the basis of train ambience.

 

[Bikeman78]

The 365s also allowed some 317s to be cascaded to LTS (though LTS never got all 25x 317 displaced), which combined with some other moves allowed the 302s to be withdrawn, and at one point most of the off-peak LTS service could in theory have become sliding-door, though I don’t think this was ever actually achieved in practice. Meanwhile, the 365s on GN were able to achieve significant growth thanks to their superior ambience.

The off peak service required 11+6+3 units to cover all trains with single units. They had about 20 class 317s which wasn't quite enough. On the last day of the class 302, pretty much the entire service was class 317s apart from the three class 302 workings and two class 310s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Thirty is a far more flexible number, and seeing as GWR want to replace Castles with IETs, and to be able to send some IETs off for crack repairs and bolster the many, many currently 5 car Swansea and Bristol services, I continue to think that the DfT should allow GWR to nab them. You only need fifteen to run a solid 12 car entirely electric hourly service to Cardiff, with the Swansea service remaining in the hands of IETs. They've got 2+2 seating and 2+1 in first class, space for a trolley and they've even got the same pale wood furnishings as the IETs - just need new seat covers and external green paint You’d release between 5 and 10 IETs (depending on whether single 800/3s or double 800/0s are used)

Many 5 car Swansea and Bristol services? The majority services on both routes are booked for 9 or 10 car formations.

With the removal of Bedwyn services and the fact the fast Bristol services never started running the IET fleet is not currently deployed fully.

12 car EMUs on the Cardiff terminators apart from when events on is overkill. At the moment the railway is having to take cost out not add it in. This isn’t going to change any time soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2022 ==

The off peak service required 11+6+3 units to cover all trains with single units. They had about 20 class 317s which wasn't quite enough. On the last day of the class 302, pretty much the entire service was class 317s apart from the three class 302 workings and two class 310s.

This also allowed many of the off peak services to be switched to DOO operation with the 317s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2022 ==

However, I am still of the opinion that we will see the class 379 units going to Great Northern, so that it releases the class 387's to go to Southern and then Southern releases 377 units to go to South Eastern, whilst at the same time using the class 377/3 units to replace the class 313 units.

There’s only 9 class 313 diagrams to replace from the December TT that only needs a very small cascade of stock or small number of service cuts to fulfil this.

 

[RobShipway]

Many 5 car Swansea and Bristol services? The majority services on both routes are booked for 9 or 10 car formations.

With the removal of Bedwyn services and the fact the fast Bristol services never started running the IET fleet is not currently deployed fully.

12 car EMUs on the Cardiff terminators apart from when events on is overkill. At the moment the railway is having to take cost out not add it in. This isn’t going to change any time soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2022 ==



This also allowed many of the off peak services to be switched to DOO operation with the 317s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2022 ==



There’s only 9 class 313 diagrams to replace from the December TT that only needs a very small cascade of stock or small number of service cuts to fulfil this.

It will be interesting as to how GTR Southern does the replace on those diagrams. To me there still needs to be a cascade of units with class 387 units replacing 377 units, such that the 377 units can then be doing those 9 diagrams.

 

[Southern Dvr]

There was a plan to bring in 387s down to Southern from Great Northern.

That plan no longer exists.

Any removal of 313s or lengthening of services will be done with 377/5 when they finally become available.

I know many of us here don’t want to accept the reality, but the reality is the 379s have no home and the 387s are staying put. I will be delighted to be proved wrong.

June 2021 I took a trip to Merdian Water and Tottenham Hale for the 317s whilst there was still a few around, caught a few ‘accidental’ 379s and had absolutely no idea they’d be in the situation they’re in now because they just seemed so modern and efficient. The problem is that they just can’t be afforded (if you believe the DfT) and thats highly unlikely to change.

 

[MML]

Given a choice of reducing the lease rates or sending them for scrap, surely a new lease must be more beneficial to the owner than a one off sale to the scrap man. How does the owner reduce its ownership costs sufficiently to permit a lowering of rental costs?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Given a choice of reducing the lease rates or sending them for scrap, surely a new lease must be more beneficial to the owner than a one off sale to the scrap man. How does the owner reduce its ownership costs sufficiently to permit a lowering of rental costs?

Doesn’t get round the big problem being no franchised rail operator is currently in the position to be able take on additional rolling stock due to budget constraints. It does mean the 379s are effectively redundant.

The only open access operator which runs totally under under the wires is Heathrow Express and this already has new rolling stock.

 

[RobShipway]

Given a choice of reducing the lease rates or sending them for scrap, surely a new lease must be more beneficial to the owner than a one off sale to the scrap man. How does the owner reduce its ownership costs sufficiently to permit a lowering of rental costs?

Doesn’t get round the big problem being no franchised rail operator is currently in the position to be able take on additional rolling stock due to budget constraints. It does mean the 379s are effectively redundant.

The only open access operator which runs totally under under the wires is Heathrow Express and this already has new rolling stock.

It is probably in Akiem's interest now, to be selling the class 379 units for scrap and any parts that can be used with the other Electrostar units could then be re - used to help keep those fleets going.

There was a plan to bring in 387s down to Southern from Great Northern.

That plan no longer exists.

Any removal of 313s or lengthening of services will be done with 377/5 when they finally become available.

I know many of us here don’t want to accept the reality, but the reality is the 379s have no home and the 387s are staying put. I will be delighted to be proved wrong.

June 2021 I took a trip to Merdian Water and Tottenham Hale for the 317s whilst there was still a few around, caught a few ‘accidental’ 379s and had absolutely no idea they’d be in the situation they’re in now because they just seemed so modern and efficient. The problem is that they just can’t be afforded (if you believe the DfT) and thats highly unlikely to change.

True enough. Akiem need to update their page though on the class 379 units https://www.akiem.com/en/trains-passagers/class-379-2/ as it still says that they are operated by Abeillo East Anglia, which has not been the case since February.

If the Wkipedia page for the class 379 is correct, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_379 they can work in multiple with 375, 376, 377, and 378. Which had me thinking, as to whether the carriages from the class 379 units could be inserted into class 375 or class 377 units? If this could be done, then the only thing that you are scrapping is the driving cars for the class 379 units. But I suspect that someone has thought about that already and due to lower numbers travelling regularly since Covid, has probably thought better of the idea. The problem you are going to have possibly, if in say the next year the passenger numbers go up and the class 379 units have been totally scrapped, is then how do you expand the fleets of class 375/377 units as the production run for the Electrostar has long since been disbanded.

The only other hope is if the class 379 units are useable abroad somewhere that is looking for passenger trains, but cannot afford to be buying brand new.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It is probably in Akiem's interest now, to be selling the class 379 units for scrap and any parts that can be used with the other Electrostar units could then be re - used to help keep those fleets going.


True enough. Akiem need to update their page though on the class 379 units https://www.akiem.com/en/trains-passagers/class-379-2/ as it still says that they are operated by Abeillo East Anglia, which has not been the case since February.

If the Wkipedia page for the class 379 is correct, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_379 they can work in multiple with 375, 376, 377, and 378. Which had me thinking, as to whether the carriages from the class 379 units could be inserted into class 375 or class 377 units? If this could be done, then the only thing that you are scrapping is the driving cars for the class 379 units. But I suspect that someone has thought about that already and due to lower numbers travelling regularly since Covid, has probably thought better of the idea. The problem you are going to have possibly, if in say the next year the passenger numbers go up and the class 379 units have been totally scrapped, is then how do you expand the fleets of class 375/377 units as the production run for the Electrostar has long since been disbanded.

The only other hope is if the class 379 units are useable abroad somewhere that is looking for passenger trains, but cannot afford to be buying brand new.

I am not sure how compatible the 379s are with classes 375 - 378. The 377/6 and 377/7 are not compatible with the older 377s. Perhaps the 379s would be compatible with the five car 377/6 and 377/7. And it is not just a case of adding coaches. First the 379s have a rather different layout and doors to 376 and 378. Furthermore a 375 or 377 might not take to having more intermediate coaches added. You would also have to ensure the motor and control coaches made it into the receiving unit otherwise they would be slower. There would need to be work to make them suitable for 3rd rail. In the end would be losing 50% of the coaches anyway. Messy.

I think the 379s role is to provide competition against the other ROSCOs (Rolling Stock Companies). But the problem is there has been a fall in demand for electric multiple units. This might pick up slowly but the DaFT (Depertment for Transport / roads) are possibly soon going to have to implement cutbacks to subsidies. The DaFT have not plumped for much ambitious recently have they ?.

 

[skyhigh]

It is probably in Akiem's interest now, to be selling the class 379 units for scrap and any parts that can be used with the other Electrostar units could then be re - used to help keep those fleets going.

Akiem wouldn't care if any parts are reused, why would they? They don't have any interest in units owned by other ROSCOs - and they all have their own spares supplies. If they want to pay to buy parts from scrap units, they will. But why spend money buying used spares when you have no need for them?

 

[Kite159]

The 377/6 and 377/7 are not compatible with the older 377s.

They do run together with the older 377s. Ie a 8 coach set formed of a 377/6 & 377/3. Or a 9 coach set formed of a 377/7 attached to a 377/1.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They do run together with the older 377s. Ie a 8 coach set formed of a 377/6 & 377/3. Or a 9 coach set formed of a 377/7 attached to a 377/1.

Thats interesting. I have never seen them mixed and was told that it was because they are not totally compatible. Maybe the differences have been resolved and I have not paid much attention recently. I remember understanding that the 377/6 and 377/7 have more in common with 379s and 387s and were built in the same era. Said they are not strictly 377s.

 

[Bikeman78]

Thats interesting. I have never seen them mixed and was told that it was because they are not totally compatible. Maybe the differences have been resolved and I have not paid much attention recently. I remember understanding that the 377/6 and 377/7 have more in common with 379s and 387s and were built in the same era. Said they are not strictly 377s.

They were not compatible to start with. No doubt some software tweak took place. I've travelled on a mixed formation so it definitely happens.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They were not compatible to start with. No doubt some software tweak took place. I've travelled on a mixed formation so it definitely happens.

That is good to know. Logic has prevailed.

 

[D365]

That is good to know. Logic has prevailed.

Well. Compatibility between the Class 377 subfleets was always intended.

 

[Jturner98]

Unfortunately 379s aren’t compatible with other Electrostar fleets. The software is different, they are also quite different underneath compared to other Electrostars.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Unfortunately 379s aren’t compatible with other Electrostar fleets. The software is different, they are also quite different underneath compared to other Electrostars.

So they are a microfleet then? and we know what happens to surplus microfleets.

 

[43102EMR]

So they are a microfleet then? and we know what happens to surplus microfleets.

I doubt the software mods will be too costly to implement - it’s just a case of no one needs them right now.

 

[Jturner98]

So they are a microfleet then? and we know what happens to surplus microfleets.

Technically yes, they incorporate a lot of the proposed Aventra technology, which is different to the Electrostars

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thirty units is rather a lot to be called a microfleet.

 

[AzureOtsu]

how do 379s relate to 387s as apposed to other electrostars? if there's some level of compatibility surely there's a possibility of 379s being reclassified as 387s with enough refurbishment

 

[HamworthyGoods]

how do 379s relate to 387s as apposed to other electrostars? if there's some level of compatibility surely there's a possibility of 379s being reclassified as 387s with enough refurbishment

But why do we need more 387s? Where are extra ones needed?
There has to be a need for additional trains to justify the refurbishment.

 

[Southern Dvr]

But why do we need more 387s? Where are extra ones needed?
There has to be a need for additional trains to justify the refurbishment.

There’s no money!!

If they’re not wanted as 379s they won’t be wanted as 387s!!

 

[MattRat]

There’s no money!!

If they’re not wanted as 379s they won’t be wanted as 387s!!

Well, at that point they'd be third rail capable, which would would give them options (maybe replace the 313s?). In fact, what's stopping them being made third rail capable and keeping everything else the same (so still the same class)?

 

[Mamorin]

I would go as far as to say they are not needed as 379s and would not be needed as 387s.

But I agree there is no money.

 

[Peter Sarf]

how do 379s relate to 387s as apposed to other electrostars? if there's some level of compatibility surely there's a possibility of 379s being reclassified as 387s with enough refurbishment

A bit like the 377/6s and 377/7s are not really 377s. But made to work together (better than I had recalled)

But why do we need more 387s? Where are extra ones needed?
There has to be a need for additional trains to justify the refurbishment.

Afraid so. So the 379s are a "microfleet" until they get made more like 387s. And there seems to be no demand to do that.

At the end of the day there are currently too many EMUs and not enough electrification .

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I would go as far as to say they are not needed as 379s and would not be needed as 387s.

But I agree there is no money.

Spot on!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2022 ==

Afraid so. So the 379s are a "microfleet" until they get made more like 387s. And there seems to be no demand to do that.

At the end of the day there are currently too many EMUs and not enough electrification .

There’s no demand to make them more like 387s as there’s no need for any extra 387s!!

 

[AzureOtsu]

Spot on!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2022 ==



There’s no demand to make them more like 387s as there’s no need for any extra 387s!!

more 387s with shoes would greatly benefit southern

 

[Peter Sarf]

more 387s with shoes would greatly benefit southern

Southern don't seem to (are not allowed to) need extra 387s.