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Future of 22x Units

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Jozhua

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When I've done the maths on the back of a fag packet, if you assume a half hourly Nottingham and a half hourly Sheffield service (i.e. similar to now) plus around ten percent of trains spare for "maintenance" (etc) then you should have enough AT300s for about half of all diagrams to be doubled up - given that a number of services through Leicester are four/five coach Meridians at the moment, a one hundred and twenty metre long train (that doesn't have the over-provision of First Class that the 222s currently have) should be fine for a lot of departures.

Okay, cool! Makes sense, should give a reasonable boost to capacity then.

I still think the provision for growth and fixing current shortfalls in capacity isn't absolutely massive, but placing more orders shouldn't be too hard, however unlikely.

With a solid refurb, retaining a small fleet of 222's could really give EMR a lot more flexibility and capacity, especially in times of disruption.
 
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greatvoyager

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Could voyagers and meridians be reconfigured to work with each other? I'm guessing it could be possible but unlikely to happen.
 

greatvoyager

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Just out of interest, will the arrival of 360s for the Corby service release any 222s? If so, would these be used to speed up the replacement of HSTs on EMR, or will they be available for cascade?
 

JonathanH

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Just out of interest, will the arrival of 360s for the Corby service release any 222s? If so, would these be used to speed up the replacement of HSTs on EMR, or will they be available for cascade?

Initially, when released by 360s running to Corby, the 222s will be used to replace HSTs on EMR. They will then be replaced by the new fleet of 5-car bi-modes and at that point be available for cascade.
 

greatvoyager

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Initially, when released by 360s running to Corby, the 222s will be used to replace HSTs on EMR. They will then be replaced by the new fleet of 5-car bi-modes and at that point be available for cascade.
Thank you for clarifying.
 

VT 390

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If the 222's on the Corby route are replacing HST's are there enougth of them to offer the same capacity overall as the HST's as the HST's are often the only trains where you can get a seat without a reservation.
 

greatvoyager

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If the 222's on the Corby route are replacing HST's are there enougth of them to offer the same capacity overall as the HST's as the HST's are often the only trains where you can get a seat without a reservation.
It will be helped by 180s joining too, but it'll depend if 222s will be able to run in double formation.
 

option

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This was one I didn't think of.
I wonder though if Chiltern would take on the XC HSTs if XC decided to bin them off in favour of a new uniformed fleet of bi-modes.

For a small franchise, it seems strange that Chiltern have seven different types of trains (two and three coach 165s, two, three and four coach 168s, two coach 172s and the loco hauled rakes). To my untrained eye, there looks like scope for simplifying the fleet (focussing on something like 195s with corridor connections?) rather than taking on additional types of train. But not up to me...

(I like the idea of a uniform fleet of bi-modes for XC mind)

Surely more likely that Chiltern get bi-modes.
Both ends of their network are in major urban areas, where there will be increasing pressure to get rid of diesel.
 

option

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I suppose it depends to an extent whether the 222s are likely to become available during the term of a new direct award franchise, or under the next franchise operator: I'd expect a relatively short term direct award franchise to only be considering available existing stock rather than new build. With no other likely homes to go to you'd expect Beacon Rail and Eversholt to offer the class 220/221 and 222 fleets to the Crosscountry franchise, in whatever form it takes, at a competitive lease price.

Always a possibility that one of them sells their 22x fleet to the other...
 

option

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In that paper a class 221 is ~120g CO2 per passenger km. 222 is ~90g and a class 43 HST is about 60g per passenger km. For diesel, CO2 emissions are directly related to fuel consumption. This implies HST uses about 1/2 the fuel of a 221 per passenger km. That is something any operator should to look at carefully before taking on a 221.


Railway diesels built before 2006 are exempt from emissions standards. I remember reading that 221s are surprisingly high emitters of pollution but can't find a source now.

Sources:
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/...rt-CO2-emissions-by-modal-shift-ETI-Comms.pdf
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/9/094012
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...renitalia-awarded-west-coast-partnership.html


What spec is that HST train though? Is it one with comparable toilets, air-con etc?
Also, the HSTs have newer engines.

Even without new engines, there may be tweaks available to improve the efficiency of those fitted to the Voyagers.
 

option

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I guess you could call it that. The thing that sets them apart is that they are a medium term stop gap, and one that people actually wanted. They aren't being foisted upon passengers in the same way many stop gaps are, as ScotRail wanted to offer a more specialised Intercity service with proper Intercity facilities, just like passengers had wanted. Though I wish I could speak as positively about the current time scale!

You may be interested in this, which outlines the proposals for modifying the 170s.

[/offtopic]


[/way offtopic]

Scotland will also then be in a situation where when the HSTs really are end of life, they'll be in a much more definite position in terms of electrification.
If both routes to Inverness are electrified, then get electric trains.
If only one is, or it ends at Aberdeen, or Perth/Dundee, then they'll need bi-mode, but they can then choose new or whatever is most reliable second-hand.


The Scottish electrification programme also impacts XC & LNER.
 

Energy

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Chiltern would not take HSTs, they just don't match their operations as they aren't fuel efficient and they are so old now.
 

The Ham

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In that paper a class 221 is ~120g CO2 per passenger km. 222 is ~90g and a class 43 HST is about 60g per passenger km. For diesel, CO2 emissions are directly related to fuel consumption. This implies HST uses about 1/2 the fuel of a 221 per passenger km. That is something any operator should to look at carefully before taking on a 221.

CO2 emissions on a per person basis are also related to the number of seats.

It is unfair to compare a 2+7 or 2+8 HST with a 5 coach 221 and claim that a 221 uses double the fuel.

A percentage of fuel is always needed to overcome drag, the longer the train proportionally the less drag that there is as although there is more as you get longer the increases are tiny for each extra coach you add.

There's a few reasons that the 222's are better than the 221's however the main one is that they don't tilt and so are lighter.

It should also be noted that the analysis assumes that Intercity trains (which includes HST's) are loaded at 40% full whilst other trains (which includes 221's and 222's) are loaded at 30% full.

Based on that there's 214 seats used in a HST and so the total train CO2 emissions would be 128kg.

Whilst a 221 would have 75 seats used and so the total train emissions would be 90kg.

This means that by just changing the 221's to bring 40% full would change the per seat emissions to 90g and so only 50% more.

However even that's a little off, as one chart I've seen (when talking about the same fuel report) sets the HST's at ~57g Vs ~107g for the 221's. This lowers the HST results by 5% and the 222 results by 10% resulting in a direct comparison figure of:
57g for the HST fleet
80g for the 221 fleet

This is then only 40% fuel increase on a per seat basis when both units are classed as Intercity services.

Whilst that's still a concern, it's not as bad as was being made out in the above post.
 

Energy

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I wonder if that will happen, it could allow more effective maintenance and leasing prices.
Will either of them want to spend the money buying a fleet which will be hard to get new customers for.

Maybe they could go internationally, I wonder if they could have some modifications and Amtrak could take them or operators which little electrified track.

This may be their only option as they are mainline trains but lots of the British mainlines are at least partly electrified and are suited to bimodes or electric trains.
 

greatvoyager

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Will either of them want to spend the money buying a fleet which will be hard to get new customers for.
Maybe they could go internationally, I wonder if they could have some modifications and Amtrak could take them or operators which little electrified track. This may be their only option as they are mainline trains but lots of the British mainlines are at least partly electrified and are suited to bimodes or electric trains.
221s will be easier to sort, they should go to XC. 222s not so certain.
 

DelW

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Maybe they could go internationally, I wonder if they could have some modifications and Amtrak could take them or operators which little electrified track.
Amtrak's passengers are used to the much more generous space permitted by their much larger loading gauge, I can't see cramped Voyagers going down well.
P1000778 small.jpg P1000807 small.jpg

Admittedly those were taken in business class, but standard had similar space if slightly less comfortable seats.
 

Jozhua

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Will either of them want to spend the money buying a fleet which will be hard to get new customers for.

Maybe they could go internationally, I wonder if they could have some modifications and Amtrak could take them or operators which little electrified track.

This may be their only option as they are mainline trains but lots of the British mainlines are at least partly electrified and are suited to bimodes or electric trains.

Yeah, I don't see that happening, US rail is a very different beast to the UK and in fact probably Europe...

Firstly, as mentioned above, the loading gauge is considerably larger in the US ^

Also, crash regs are stricter over there for various reasons, although I do believe they've been loosened a tad recently. Then there's signalling and stuff like the wierd bells they have on all the time to annoy local residents...

Also Amtrack doesn't really seem to be in need of new fleets, what with them still struggling their way to profitability and all.
 

greatvoyager

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One thing that needs changing is the interior. The Voyager/Meridian units are really showing their age now.
 

MarkyT

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Firstly, as mentioned above, the loading gauge is considerably larger in the US
The main problem with that is width. If you add high platfroms like the East Coast corridor or the new Virgin Trains USA/Brightline operation in Florida, they have to be set back sufficiently far from the near rail to allow wide freight cars to pass (where these share the track). Gap filler steps could be added to the trains. These could be fixed, although are better for PRMs and general quick boarding if movable like on the new Siemens Brightline carriages or various Stadler units including our new GA cl.7x5s. That might be an expensive modification though.
Also, crash regs are stricter over there for various reasons, although I do believe they've been loosened a tad recently. Then there's signalling and stuff like the wierd bells they have on all the time to annoy local residents...
One way to challenge the historic FRA crash resistance regs is to install and use PTC (positive train control) systems, which is American lingo for train protection. Most rail companies, both freight and passenger, are well on the way with this due to a Federal mandate and a number of commuter passenger networks, particularly on the east coast having various older forms of this already. One of the weird characteristic of the old FRA regs was the total non recognition of well established 'crumple zone' techniques. This meant that similar capacity passenger cars in the US are up to TWICE the unladen weight of typical European or far eastern examples. While these heavyweights are very resistant to deformation, they don't really protect passengers carried within very much from sudden decelerations, and the total weight involved ensures that far more kinetic energy is involved in collisions. Bells, whistles and bigger headlamps are very easy to add. They managed it with Flying Scotsman after all!
Also Amtrack doesn't really seem to be in need of new fleets, what with them still struggling their way to profitability and all.
They're renewing the east coast corridor fleet with new tilting Alstom products at the moment, but they do otherwise seem to have the knack of keeping older fleets going for a long time.
 
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