Future of 22x Units

[greatvoyager]

I don’t think this thread has produced any firm evidence that XC will be phasing out 221/220 anytime soon. If anything, I’d expect ex west coast 221s, and ex EMT 222s will be more likely to displace their few HSTs. Bi-modes for the long term, but not in the immediate future.

Unlike most people, I genuinely like the 22x fleet, I've never had a problem with them. As a frequent user of them, I feel that even if it is short term, they do still have a lot to offer. Sure they're not the most fuel efficient, but they were ahead of their time in terms of being fully accessible.
One thing that does stand in the way is the fact that the west coast 221s and CrossCountry 221s are different both in their formations and interior layout. Would XC (or whoever takes over from them by that time) really spend money in bringing all of them in to line so that they have a common layout once more? I doubt it.

 

[Energy]

Unlike most people, I genuinely like the 22x fleet, I've never had a problem with them. As a frequent user of them, I feel that even if it is short term, they do still have a lot to offer. Sure they're not the most fuel efficient, but they were ahead of their time in terms of being fully accessible.
One thing that does stand in the way is the fact that the west coast 221s and CrossCountry 221s are different both in their formations and interior layout. Would XC (or whoever takes over from them by that time) really spend money in bringing all of them in to line so that they have a common layout once more? I doubt it.

I doubt it, XC will probably take all the 221s and keep them the same, just covering over the virgin logos as the repainted ones are mostly white on the outside and the interior is similar apart from first class and the shop, the shop would just be closed, possibly open on long journeys, and first class would just have the XC logo instead of Virgin. This is just my guess but considering its Arriva it seems likely they wil do as little as possible to me.

 

[greatvoyager]

I doubt it, XC will probably take all the 221s and keep them the same, just covering over the virgin logos as the repainted ones are mostly white on the outside and the interior is similar apart from first class and the shop, the shop would just be closed, possibly open on long journeys, and first class would just have the XC logo instead of Virgin. This is just my guess but considering its Arriva it seems likely they wil do as little as possible to me.

I guess it depends how long they'll be in service for before being replaced. Say no new stock is ordered / delivered until 2030, then maybe they'll have to do a refresh / repaint on them but if it's only a few years, they probably wouldn't bother.

 

[krus_aragon]

I guess it depends how long they'll be in service for before being replaced. Say no new stock is ordered / delivered until 2030, then maybe they'll have to do a refresh / repaint on them but if it's only a few years, they probably wouldn't bother.

That decision would be made by the next franchisee, of course. If XC see a direct award extension, Arriva will just put them in service with as little work done as is practical.

 

[greatvoyager]

That decision would be made by the next franchisee, of course. If XC see a direct award extension, Arriva will just put them in service with as little work done as is practical.

Either way, the capacity should increase on many services, which is desperately needed on XC.

 

[Energy]

Either way, the capacity should increase on many services, which is desperately needed on XC.

We can all agree XC need more capacity, Virgin wanted to expand the existing voyagers to 6 cars I believe but Arriva won the franchise. I think that in the next franchise XC's voyagers will get replaced and Virgin will want the next franchise as they currently won't have any from December. And being Virgin they will probably decide to replace the entire fleet.

 

[greatvoyager]

We can all agree XC need more capacity, Virgin wanted to expand the existing voyagers to 6 cars I believe but Arriva won the franchise. I think that in the next franchise XC's voyagers will get replaced and Virgin will want the next franchise as they currently won't have any from December. And being Virgin they will probably decide to replace the entire fleet.

That would be ironic seeing that Virgin introduced them. Either way, whoever thought running shorter trains more frequently was a good idea didn't think things through properly.

 

[Energy]

That would be ironic seeing that Virgin introduced them. Either way, whoever thought running shorter trains more frequently was a good idea didn't think things through properly.

I don't think they had as many passengers when they were introduced, 5 cars would be fine and simply double them up on busier journeys but 4 cars easily leads to overcrowding.

 

[greatvoyager]

I don't think they had as many passengers when they were introduced, 5 cars would be fine and simply double them up on busier journeys but 4 cars easily leads to overcrowding.

It's a shame Project Omega never happened. Although it wouldn't have converted them to bi mode units, 220001-034 and 221141-144 would've gained the fifth car, which although not a dramatic increase, would have enabled overall consistency.

 

[Energy]

It's a shame Project Omega never happened. Although it wouldn't have converted them to bi mode units, 220001-034 and 221141-144 would've gained the fifth car, which although not a dramatic increase, would have enabled overall consistency.

It would certainly be better than the current 4 cars.

 

[greatvoyager]

It would certainly be better than the current 4 cars.

Absolutely. In terms of fuel consumption, as they are massively overpowered, can an eco-mode be installed on 220/221 units?

 

[greatvoyager]

One thing that needs to be addressed is the smell on voyager trains. The toilet fumes need to be away from the air conditioning.

 

[Energy]

One thing that needs to be addressed is the smell on voyager trains. The toilet fumes need to be away from the air conditioning.

I doubt it will get fixed, the Virgin replacement are retiring them and XC will probably not bother unless they get used in the next franchise, which looks unlikely.

 

[greatvoyager]

I doubt it will get fixed, the Virgin replacement are retiring them and XC will probably not bother unless they get used in the next franchise, which looks unlikely.

I'm amazed that they have been in service nearly 20 years and nothing has been done to fix it.

 

[greatvoyager]

I noticed that Virgin Trains have fitted new external destination displays on their voyagers. I wonder if CrossCountry are required to do the same.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm amazed that they have been in service nearly 20 years and nothing has been done to fix it.

I'm sure I recall they said that they'd done something about the smell when they were still fairly new. It's just that it didn't deal with the problem completely.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'm sure I recall they said that they'd done something about the smell when they were still fairly new. It's just that it didn't deal with the problem completely.

It'll probably be left unchanged now.

 

[Energy]

I don't think anybody is willing to pay to fix it, the new WCML franchise is replacing them and XC wouldn't invest considering how long is left of their franchise and how it is looking like they are going to be replaced in the next. The ROSCO which owns them wouldn't bother fixing it unless someone is ready to start operating them.

 

[greatvoyager]

I don't think anybody is willing to pay to fix it, the new WCML franchise is replacing them and XC wouldn't invest considering how long is left of their franchise and how it is looking like they are going to be replaced in the next. The ROSCO which owns them wouldn't bother fixing it unless someone is ready to start operating them.

I just hope something positive happens with 22x units.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Would Voyagers be worthwhile using to cascade 168s off the Birmingham/Stratford-London Chiltern services, enabling the 168s to replace 172/1s which could then go to WMR to have more 4 car (semi permanent 2x2 car sets) service on Snow Hills

Or give them TfW to replace 175s?

 

[JonathanH]

Would Voyagers be worthwhile using to cascade 168s off the Birmingham/Stratford-London Chiltern services, enabling the 168s to replace 172/1s which could then go to WMR to have more 4 car (semi permanent 2x2 car sets) service on Snow Hills

Or give them TfW to replace 175s?

No - in both cases. Capacity is too low and neither route is good for speeds above 100mph. Completely the wrong type of rolling stock.

TfW already has stock on order to replace 175s.

 

[Energy]

No - in both cases. Capacity is too low and neither route is good for speeds above 100mph. Completely the wrong type of rolling stock.

TfW already has stock on order to replace 175s.

Actually voyagers accelerate rather well and already stop at Leamington Spa. Although longer will be spent at stations with the doors compared to the 168s. Chiltern is also built on efficiency which is why most services don't have first class and they have the door son the 168s in that position for less time spent at stations. The voyagers don't fit with Chiltern's model of efficiency but I don't think much does, the 800s have doors which don't let a lot of people get on and off quickly, they could get bimode aventras or stadler flirts. But this is getting a bit off topic so I'm going to make a seperate thread on possible options for Chiltern as Chiltern are rather unique.

 

[Jozhua]

I doubt any, beyond a cab car or two for reformation, will go to scrap.

Surely a few sets of five car 221's/222's will make there way over to Grand Central, then the 180's could go to scrap, as they seem a lot more deserving of that fate.

I reckon Cross Country will probably use the spare trains to lengthen services and replace HSTs. By the time EMR and West Coast Rail have replaced their 221/2's, it will be 2022 and the HSTs will be in their 5th decade of operation, so I doubt newer units will go to scrap before they do.

Also EMR's order of as yet unnamed AT300's seems adequate for today's traffic but by the time 2022 rolls around, perhaps not.

It will probably be a similar situation to the 221 fleets that were supposed to replace the HSTs, that the new fleets turn out to not provide enough capacity and the old fleet is drafted back in to help out. I give the EMR AT300's a year or so before the 222's are smugly back to quickly bring capacity up!

 

[Energy]

I give the EMR AT300's a year or so before the 222's are smugly back to quickly bring capacity up!

Part of the issue is that EMR ordered 5 cars and 2 five cars theoretically other the same or more capacity but in real life people don't seem to spread between the two units. So yes they have the same or more capacity compared to a 9 car but one half the train will be more full than the other.
If anybody knows how 2 5 cars are on GWR and wants to prove me wrong I would be interested as they have been on GWR for some time now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the issue is that EMR ordered 5 cars and 2 five cars theoretically other the same or more capacity but in real life people don't seem to spread between the two units. So yes they have the same or more capacity compared to a 9 car but one half the train will be more full than the other.
If anybody knows how 2 5 cars are on GWR and wants to prove me wrong I would be interested as they have been on GWR for some time now!

Often long trains are quieter towards the front, but this seems to happen regardless of whether they are walkable through or not - it happens on near enough every 12 car departure from Euston, for instance, where full and standing at the back (enough to declassify 1st) but a bay each at the front is not at all unusual.

The issue I more see is with catering and/or the guard only being in one half. VTWC staff both buffets on 10-car Voyager services, but most other TOCs don't seem to do this.

 

[Energy]

The issue I more see is with catering and/or the guard only being in one half. VTWC staff both buffets on 10-car Voyager services, but most other TOCs don't seem to do this.

Virgin can justify this as there services get very full but for other operators, its doubling the staff costs nearly and they can't justify that.

 

[Mikey C]

Can operators with 2 joined together units play around with the seat reservations to spread the loading, e.g. for services out of STP with only one platform entrance at the rear, have more reserved seats on the front 5 cars than on the rear 5 cars, which will be busier with late arrivals?

 

[Jozhua]

Part of the issue is that EMR ordered 5 cars and 2 five cars theoretically other the same or more capacity but in real life people don't seem to spread between the two units. So yes they have the same or more capacity compared to a 9 car but one half the train will be more full than the other.
If anybody knows how 2 5 cars are on GWR and wants to prove me wrong I would be interested as they have been on GWR for some time now!

My issue is that 'the same or a bit more capacity' isn't going to cut it in 2030, when these units will not even be 10 years old!

Trains now are already overcrowded, the AT-300's will probably bring some improvement when they arrive, but this will quickly be filled again.

Can operators with 2 joined together units play around with the seat reservations to spread the loading, e.g. for services out of STP with only one platform entrance at the rear, have more reserved seats on the front 5 cars than on the rear 5 cars, which will be busier with late arrivals?

Yes, I think this would be sensible. My only concern with capacity is how much the trains will actually run as 10-car.

 

[RichmondCommu]

They should be used on the Cardiff to Nottingham services. Or maybe the S & C.

 

[tbtc]

Part of the issue is that EMR ordered 5 cars and 2 five cars theoretically other the same or more capacity but in real life people don't seem to spread between the two units. So yes they have the same or more capacity compared to a 9 car but one half the train will be more full than the other

In my experience, if the original coach is busy then people are more likely to just stand in the original coach than walk into another one - the there's still four other coaches to walk through should one coach of your five cars be too busy though.

Virgin can justify this as there services get very full but for other operators, its doubling the staff costs nearly and they can't justify that.

The cost of a second Guard/ catering staff on a two hundred and forty metre train are going to be relatively minor - it's a long way for one Guard to attend to all passengers as it is - and having the catering two hundred metres away further down the train is a lot less attractive (just my personal preference, but I'd maybe consider walking a coach or two for refreshments but not several coaches, which would be the case if you had just one "buffet"/"shop" in a ten coach train).

A second Guard would be no bad thing - I'm not sure how one is going to be able to look after all passengers and be easily reachable on such a long train.

My only concern with capacity is how much the trains will actually run as 10-car

When I've done the maths on the back of a fag packet, if you assume a half hourly Nottingham and a half hourly Sheffield service (i.e. similar to now) plus around ten percent of trains spare for "maintenance" (etc) then you should have enough AT300s for about half of all diagrams to be doubled up - given that a number of services through Leicester are four/five coach Meridians at the moment, a one hundred and twenty metre long train (that doesn't have the over-provision of First Class that the 222s currently have) should be fine for a lot of departures.