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Future of 22x Units

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Prestige15

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I can't think any other TOC the 22X would end up other than a few.

GWR (long distance such as Great Malven - Brighton)
Grand Central
Any open access that would operate on mainlines (possibly this CO-OP rail Birmingham -Swindown - Weymouth)
Possibly the next frainchise in east midlands (to be known as East Midland Railway) if the network expand making more use of them
East-West rail express (doubts)

Apparently the boss of Chiltern Railways is keen to have a few
 
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The Ham

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I can't think any other TOC the 22X would end up other than a few.

GWR (long distance such as Great Malven - Brighton)
Grand Central
Any open access that would operate on mainlines (possibly this CO-OP rail Birmingham -Swindown - Weymouth)
Possibly the next frainchise in east midlands (to be known as East Midland Railway) if the network expand making more use of them
East-West rail express (doubts)

Apparently the boss of Chiltern Railways is keen to have a few

I never can remember how many coaches the silver mainline trains have, however if you reform 222's so that they are the same length of train (i.e. the number of coaches plus the loco and DVT) then the 222's would have more seats than the current trains.
 

sprinterguy

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I never can remember how many coaches the silver mainline trains have, however if you reform 222's so that they are the same length of train (i.e. the number of coaches plus the loco and DVT) then the 222's would have more seats than the current trains.
They have six carriages. Leave the six 7-car 222s as they are and they'd seem the ideal replacement for both the loco hauled sets and some of Chilterns' 'doubled up' 168 formations. Before Chiltern took on the ex-TPE 170s and converted them to 168/3s, the 222 fleet seemed an ideal size to replace the 168s and loco hauled rakes if they became available.
Post-2019, with the fitting of power doors, they should eat less out of the dwell times.
Aye, while it won't change point to point timings it will help the trains get away from stations that bit faster. And it will certainly eliminate the perennial problem of doors on catches, and the less frequent occurrence of passengers attempting to board or alight moving trains via the droplight windows!
 

whhistle

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The thing is, the Class 222s are very much wanted and needed at EMT. I know many on this forum mention cascading thwm to XC, but I reckon EMT would fight tooth and nail to keep them.
Unless [EMT] were going to replace them with new bi-modes... sort of like the ITT states they should.
 

krus_aragon

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After this morning's announcement, the situation appears to be:
That will leave Cross Country as the only operator of 22x units, depending on the outcome of their delayed franchise renewal.
 

Royston Vasey

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Do Cross Country even want more trains? They seem quite happy with status quo direct award apathy.

I expect the OA operators would not literally kill for the 221s versus their current stock, unless drastically more expensive (though knowing the free market economics of the ROSCOs, they will be). And Hull are getting 802s which leaves the Mackem Express.
 

whhistle

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Throwing it out there, but I wonder if Grand Central might be interested in some.

Unlikely, and would be better if XC binned off their HSTs and took on all the 22x class to keep them together.
 

ExRes

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Throwing it out there, but I wonder if Grand Central might be interested in some.

Unlikely, and would be better if XC binned off their HSTs and took on all the 22x class to keep them together.

I'm not sure, for example, that XC would want to pay for 27 sets and 143 coaches worth of 222s rather than 5 HSTs
 

The Ham

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If we assume that XC end up with all the Virgin trains 221's that would give them a fleet of:
38* 4 coach units
40* 5 coach units

If they take the current 38*4 coach units and swap them with 38*5 coach units, that then leaves 2*5 coach units and 38*4 coach units to cover the 20*5 coach units. That would allow every 5 coach unit to be covered by at least a 4+4 formation.

Given that there's already a few 4+4 (or greater) services in reality that's going to the capability to run quite a significant percentage of the services as X+X.

If you then reform the 222's to create:
7*9 coach units (to replace the HST's)
8*7 coach units (with the same capacity as the 4+4 units.

Withan extra 9 units over the only 220/221 fleets that's an extra 9 services which could run in pairs.

As a minimum that's 29/58 services (50%) which could run end to end as pairs of units and 100% of diagrams which would be able to be allocated a minimum of a 5 coach unit. That doesn't allow for any existing pairings which happen or for the pairings to only happen over the core or for the retention of the HST's or for any of the spare units. As such it should be possible for the core to always be diagramed as a pair of units or a 7+ coach unit.
 

The Ham

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I'm not sure, for example, that XC would want to pay for 27 sets and 143 coaches worth of 222s rather than 5 HSTs

Indeed, which is why I am of the view that at least some of the end coaches in the 222 fleet may well be scrapped.
 

sprinterguy

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I'm not sure, for example, that XC would want to pay for 27 sets and 143 coaches worth of 222s rather than 5 HSTs
For that matter, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the next Crosscountry operator might decide that an all-new fleet of, say, 30 x 7-car and 30 x 5-car Hitachi AT-300 derivatives (360 vehicles) might be cheaper to operate in terms of leasing, track access, maintenance and fuel costs than 143 class 222 vehicles and 252 class 220/221 vehicles (395 vehicles) to achieve a comparable increase in capacity.

I suppose it depends to an extent whether the 222s are likely to become available during the term of a new direct award franchise, or under the next franchise operator: I'd expect a relatively short term direct award franchise to only be considering available existing stock rather than new build. With no other likely homes to go to you'd expect Beacon Rail and Eversholt to offer the class 220/221 and 222 fleets to the Crosscountry franchise, in whatever form it takes, at a competitive lease price.
 
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Julia

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Throwing it out there, but I wonder if Grand Central might be interested in some.

Unlikely, and would be better if XC binned off their HSTs and took on all the 22x class to keep them together.

... and binned the 170s (or passed them on as 15x replacements) as well?
 

Jorge Da Silva

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For that matter, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the next Crosscountry operator might decide that an all-new fleet of, say, 30 x 7-car and 30 x 5-car Hitachi AT-300 derivatives (360 vehicles) might be cheaper to operate in terms of leasing, track access, maintenance and fuel costs than 143 class 222 vehicles and 252 class 220/221 vehicles (395 vehicles) to achieve a comparable increase in capacity.

I suppose it depends to an extent whether the 222s are likely to become available during the term of a new direct award franchise, or under the next franchise operator: I'd expect a relatively short term direct award franchise to only be considering available existing stock rather than new build. With no other likely homes to go to you'd expect Beacon Rail and Eversholt to offer the class 220/221 and 222 fleets to the Crosscountry franchise, in whatever form it takes, at a competitive lease price.

True, by the time the 22X's become free the franchise may well be up for renewal which could mean new stock. HST's I think are the only short term solution as 222's and 221's will not be available until 2022
 

sprinterguy

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Would Wales work, especially on the Holyhead/ Manchester to Cardiff/ West Wales axis.
The Welsh regional services have already got new trains on order, probably offering more seats once they're running in five carriage formation (on Manchester - Cardiff) than a 5-car 22x equivalent.

Prior to the award of the current Transport for Wales franchise I had considered the 222 fleet to be an appropriate size to replace the 175 fleet, as some jiggery-pokery could yield, for example, 17 x 6-car and 10 x 4-car class 222s, but KeolisAmey have gone for a more wholesale fleet replacement with brand new stock.
 
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The Ham

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From a another thread, with regards to a way of releasing the 170's from XC for use at East Midlands Railways:

Indeed, however would it not be better for XC to take ~20*158's from EMT (to run the Stansted services in pairs) along with the 222's in exchange for the 170's.

That could allow some of the 222's to be used to strengthen the current 220/221 fleets. You could even end up with a fleet of:
- 17*5 coach units to cover the remaining 17/28 units
- 1*4 coach unit to provide extra capacity or act as a spare to the above
- 6*8 coach units (comparable to a 4+5) to provide extra units to provide extra capacity to the current 220/221 fleets.

If you really wanted to you could swap 25*2 (50 coaches) for 10*3 coach 158/159's and 10 central coaches (total of 40 coaches), so XC had a fleet of 4 coach 158/159's. (Note it could be that XC could use 1 end coach as a middle coach much as others have done, as long as it's only one then there's still going to be extra capacity over running 2+2)

The likes of SWR could then run more 10 coach trains by having 3+3+2+2 rather than 3+3+3, others may then also then be able to run more 4 coach services rather than 3 coach services.

Would allow XC to be the home of all 22x units (other than 6 end coaches), but would kind of force XC to get new units to replace the 158's as party of the next franchise.
 

LOL The Irony

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Why does there have to be that one person who wants to get rid of 22x driving cars everytime their future is talked about? It's getting boring now and is frankly silly. Just leave them as is.
 

JonathanH

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It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the next Crosscountry operator might decide that an all-new fleet of, say, 30 x 7-car and 30 x 5-car Hitachi AT-300 derivatives

Arguably it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they would just decide to order 5-car ones like all the other IEP operators.

It would seem a bit silly with 22x available but the numbers have to stack up whatever they do. It can't be taken for granted that XC will operate longer trains in the future.
 

greatvoyager

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It seems logical that XC should get the remaining 221s seeing as they already operate them, but there would still be some work to do to them. The West Coast sets would need to be put back into their original formation, and would they replace the seating in the "shop" vehicle from the current flexible first/standard format? XC seem to be a bit reluctant to invest in the fleets in terms of putting their own finish on the interiors, as opposed to the VT blue and red.
Getting the 222s would be great too though, either way it will provide much needed extra capacity.
 

Kettledrum

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Do Cross Country even want more trains? They seem quite happy with status quo direct award apathy.

Cross Country may seem quite happy but their passengers are certainly not. They are being crammed into trains which are far too small on long journeys. Cross Country shouldn't have been allowed to get away from it, but the franchise system has failed these passengers. The cascaded trains from either Virgin or EMT are so badly needed to boost capacity
 

Jozhua

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Cross Country may seem quite happy but their passengers are certainly not. They are being crammed into trains which are far too small on long journeys. Cross Country shouldn't have been allowed to get away from it, but the franchise system has failed these passengers. The cascaded trains from either Virgin or EMT are so badly needed to boost capacity

Yes! I don't see how the government can get people to leave cars when many long distance operations such as TPE and XC are so unpleasant.

The franchising system doesn't seem to be responding to changes in passenger numbers in any reasonable time frame...
 

The Ham

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Yes! I don't see how the government can get people to leave cars when many long distance operations such as TPE and XC are so unpleasant.

The franchising system doesn't seem to be responding to changes in passenger numbers in any reasonable time frame...

Whilst I agree, the XC franchise is one of those which hasn't been relet for quite a long time. In fact it started in 2007, which puts it closer to things like the zero growth franchis of Northern (2004) and that ethos, than the WCML franchise problems (2012) or the CP5 High Level Output Specification (2012). The latter of which was quite forward thinking with what it proposed (given what's transpired, some may joke several Control Periods to far forward thinking).

XC could have been relet as early as 2014, meaning that if that happened we could be looking forward to what was being proposed by the following franchise early in the 2020's rather than just the next.

As I've pointed out on other subjects, rail growth has seen over 70% growth in a shorter period than the XC franchise has been running for. As such, it there had been a new franchise it would have increased capacity and we'd probably be looking at a doubling of capacity from what we've already got (some may think my suggestion of scraping end units is boring, but based on the above and the potential communication issues between the 222 fleet and the 220/221's and the stupidly short formations of 4 coach units, which increases staff and leading costs without providing much extra capacity, there could be a case for doing so).

Given that there's few locations which could be suitable for 22x's, especially if XC replace them with bimodal trains, their current owners would likely be looking to offer them on a good deal to anyone who is likely to be interested.

Basically you're looking at:
- XC (most likely, as posted above, possibly with the 5 coach 222's & 158's replacing the 170's and the other 222's strengthening the current Voyager fleet)
- Chiltern (but given the length of their current Mainline loco hauled services they would only be interested if the unit length was the same length and not pairs of units due to the loss of capacity)
- SWR (as a fixed length formation of 22x's with 10 coaches could provide broadly the same capacity as a 9 coach train formed of 159's, of these were used on the Exeter services they could provide some journey time improvements, given they wouldn't be so heavily used a lot of their current problems would appear to go away)

(Of the three two would only be interested in longer unit types for capacity reasons, mostly as the 4 coach units have so few seats in them).

Pretty much any other franchise which could have used them had either ruled them out (ScotRail) or has new stock (TPE, GWR, EMT, Wales, etc.).

Yes you could find an open access operator who may be interested in them, but again they're not going to be interested in them in their 4 coach configuration.

The two most likely way that we're not going to see them scrapped, either in their entirety, part of the 22x fleet or the scraping of some end coaches, would be then all going to XC or their owners doing Project Thor.

Project Thor would likely result in the lengthening of all 4 coach units to 5 coach units with all 5 coach units either having a coach replaced with a new pantograph coach or having 2 pantograph coaches added and the using up of the extra coaches to form either 9+ coach units.

Given how powerful the 22x fleet is, if they weren't required to run at over 100mph on diesel (or at least not very much) there could even be a case made for a trailer coach being added of they were 10 coaches long (i.e. 7 diesel coaches, 2 pantograph coaches and 1 trailer coach).

However even without any trailers the fleet could be:
- 34*5 coach 220's
- 15*5 coach 221's
- 5*10 coach 221's
- 17*5 coach 222's
- 10*9 coach 222's (actually 1 could be 10 coaches long)

You would gain more capacity, especially given that you could also design the new pantograph coaches without the need for an accessible loo, with those 106 new pantograph coaches.

The big question is, would you bother given the risk? I wouldn't have thought so. Which would probably mean, unless someone can give a good reason why not, that the scraping of some of the 22x fleet within the next 10 years (subject to XC getting a new franchise within that timeframe), even if that's just end coaches.

Especially given that when comparing a 4+4 train with a 7 coach unit, or an 4+5/8 or 5.5/9, you'd see broadly the same capacity but save on the lease costs of 1 coach (which always used to be £110,000/ year) as well as the need for an extra member of catering staff (without the benefit of extra, or much extra, income by them being provided compared with them not being provided). Such cost savings are going to be significant as to if XC make a premium payment or not to the DfT, which under the current system would be quite significant. (Whether that's true going forwards is another matter, however I would be surprised if it wasn't still a significant factor).

Yes there's still a case for being able to strengthen services over the core. However on certain routes (Reading/Southampton and the North East) there's not much route beyond the core, so there's not much saving from splitting and using one unit for the next return leg. Even then the potential for extra revenue would likely be able to cover most of those costs (even if that's mostly getting a bigger share of the any train ticket sales over that route).
 

Kettledrum

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Recent new franchises have resulted in the ordering of new rolling stock, not just bi-modes so this could make the leasing companies wake up and drop their lease costs for the 22x units, otherwise they will go unused - which would be a shame as they do still have some life left in them.

Is there the possibility that the availability of the 22x units could open up the possibility of new services that can't currently run because of a lack of rolling stock. I'm struggling to think of many - Nottingham to Glasgow perhaps or Bournemouth to Bristol perhaps?

Either way I agree that 4 car units are too short, so we could see the scrapping of some end cars.
 

Julia

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Recent new franchises have resulted in the ordering of new rolling stock, not just bi-modes so this could make the leasing companies wake up and drop their lease costs for the 22x units...

The leasecos will do what is most profitable for them, not what's best for the system as a whole. They can always create shortages to keep their prices high. But that's another thread.

Is there the possibility that the availability of the 22x units could open up the possibility of new services that can't currently run because of a lack of rolling stock. I'm struggling to think of many - Nottingham to Glasgow perhaps or Bournemouth to Bristol perhaps? Either way I agree that 4 car units are too short, so we could see the scrapping of some end cars.

I'd like to see the figures on how cost-effective a 4x222 would be compared to a 2+4 HST set... heresy, I know!
 

hwl

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My view is that they will need substantial overhaul before they see new uses, a big potential market is longer (4-6 car) services on busier secondary routes with max 100mph running for example replacing GWR "castle" HST sets (similar routes at EMR, Scotrail, TfW) but would need complete interior gutting and refitting orientated around their new user base.

Given that the new market is probably centred arround max 110/110mph running a project Thor mark2 approach might be in order. Instead of building new pantograph /transformer cars, modify one of the existing centre cars (steel bodyshells so easier than Aluminium) removing the engine and fitting a pantograph well and transformer, the max speed on diesel would fall to around 105/110 for 4/5 car but you would get full 125mph perform on electric so a relatively cheap bi-mode that might suit several locations (Scotrail replacing some HSTs and helping add capacity with a rolling electrification programme)
 

hwl

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The leasecos will do what is most profitable for them, not what's best for the system as a whole. They can always create shortages to keep their prices high. But that's another thread.



I'd like to see the figures on how cost-effective a 4x222 would be compared to a 2+4 HST set... heresy, I know!
I suspect GWR would be go for 222 option if they had been available at the time.
 

sprinterguy

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Arguably it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they would just decide to order 5-car ones like all the other IEP operators.
As much as I hate to contemplate such a rolling stock strategy, you could well be right. In which case, a 220/221/222 fleet would be preferable from a passenger's point of view in terms of providing additional capacity!

Gaining the class 222 fleet (for use on North East - South West diagrams) alongside the existing 220s and 221s would ensure Crosscountry didn't have to operate a train shorter than a 5-car single unit (All 4-car sets could be doubled up).
 

Andrew*Debbie

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I've read the 221's use more fuel per seat-mile than most other diesels. I have no idea about maintenance and repair costs.

Does anyone know if it would cost more to lease and run ex-Virgin 221s compared to other options?
 
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