Future Northern Class 319 diagrams.

[507021]

Hi all,

At the moment, I know there are currently sixteen or seventeen Class 319 diagrams, but I was wondering if anyone knows how many there will be after all of the electrification has been completed?

Thanks.

 

[Bovverboy]

Hi all,

At the moment, I know there are currently sixteen or seventeen Class 319 diagrams, but I was wondering if anyone knows how many there will be after all of the electrification has been completed?

Thanks.

At the last count there were seventeen 319 diagrams M/F, but one of those just does Liverpool to Preston, and return, in an afternoon. Slightly fewer diagrams on a Saturday, and only eight on a Sunday.
Twenty-four Allerton-based 319s are marked down as staying 319s, so when Manchester to Blackpool goes electric I would anticipate that at least twenty would be diagrammed for use M/F. Possibly slightly more, since any spare 769s might be designated as being available to cover a 769 or 319 diagram.

 

[Bovverboy]

Forgot to say, the number of Sunday diagrams will temporarily reduce to five when BPN-PRE reopens.

 

[507021]

At the last count there were seventeen 319 diagrams M/F, but one of those just does Liverpool to Preston, and return, in an afternoon. Slightly fewer diagrams on a Saturday, and only eight on a Sunday.
Twenty-four Allerton-based 319s are marked down as staying 319s, so when Manchester to Blackpool goes electric I would anticipate that at least twenty would be diagrammed for use M/F. Possibly slightly more, since any spare 769s might be designated as being available to cover a 769 or 319 diagram.

Thank you.

 

[Thomas6187]

A temporary 319 diagram is scheduled to start on Monday 12th to enable a 323 to go to Liverpool for train crew training. I believe its the diagram starting with 07:30 Alderley Edge-Manchester Piccadilly

 

[507021]

A temporary 319 diagram is scheduled to start on Monday 12th to enable a 323 to go to Liverpool for train crew training. I believe its the diagram starting with 07:30 Alderley Edge-Manchester Piccadilly

Oh that's interesting, thank you. Does this mean the 323s now being retained?

 

[Bovverboy]

A temporary 319 diagram is scheduled to start on Monday 12th to enable a 323 to go to Liverpool for train crew training. I believe its the diagram starting with 07:30 Alderley Edge-Manchester Piccadilly

Interesting indeed. It looks as though the above has been on the cards for a while, since from 11/12/17 the diagram which does 0730 ex-Alderley has started and finished at Stockport CMD, instead of Longsight.

The unit swap appears to be taking place tomorrow, Saturday 10/2/18. The 319 off 2C39 (1731 Wigan NW - Lime Street) then does 5Z39 (1839 ECS Lime Street - Stockport CMD) - it would normally do 5F39 (1828 ECS Lime Street - Allerton). Meanwhile the 323 working 5H36 (normally 1918 ECS Alderley Edge - Stockport CMD) terminates at Stockport (Platform 4) and becomes 5Z36 ECS Stockport - Allerton depot. Both 5Z39 and 5Z36 are given as timed for Sprinters.

I haven't found any sign of the 319 working the 0730 ex-Alderley being changed over at any point, so the implication is that the 319s will spend two consecutive nights at Stockport CMD.

Although the 'new' 319 duty mainly stays on Alderleys, it does do two trips to Crewe (0804 and 2004).

 

[coxxy]

Not too sure exactly what the plans are for introducing 319's on more services but the PIS codes have been added for Crewe, Alderley Edge, Stockport and Wilmslow.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh that's interesting, thank you. Does this mean the 323s now being retained?

The 323s were set to stay until the 331s entered service anyway. As the routes were to be revised before the 331s entered service it meant the 323s were to end up working services to Liverpool and Blackpool. However, with Bolton wiring delayed them reaching Blackpool before they leave isn't a certainty.

 

[driver_m]

Got to say, the 323 would be a far better unit to replace the 319 on the Liverpool electric services with the increased congestion thats coming with the extra services out of lime st over the next year or two. They'd be handy for shifting out of the way a bit quicker and do they have a similar capacity with being longer? Also would it be possible to run 6 cars on the fast Blackpool - Liverpool's without platform length issues? (This is only my opinion and thoughts)

 

[northwichcat]

Got to say, the 323 would be a far better unit to replace the 319 on the Liverpool electric services with the increased congestion thats coming with the extra services out of lime st over the next year or two. They'd be handy for shifting out of the way a bit quicker and do they have a similar capacity with being longer? Also would it be possible to run 6 cars on the fast Blackpool - Liverpool's without platform length issues? (This is only my opinion and thoughts)

323s have 23.6m carriages so a 323 in it's current state has around the same number of seats as a PRM modified 319. I don't think there's any plans to use them on Liverpool-Blackpool though and there won't be enough to run 6 car services to Liverpool.

 

[scrapy]

323s have 23.6m carriages so a 323 in it's current state has around the same number of seats as a PRM modified 319. I don't think there's any plans to use them on Liverpool-Blackpool though and there won't be enough to run 6 car services to Liverpool.

6 car 323s would not fit the platforms at Leyland, Euxton or Huyton. (Or any other station between Wigan and Lime St except St Helens Ctl and Edge Hill)

 

[507021]

The 323s were set to stay until the 331s entered service anyway. As the routes were to be revised before the 331s entered service it meant the 323s were to end up working services to Liverpool and Blackpool. However, with Bolton wiring delayed them reaching Blackpool before they leave isn't a certainty.

Ah right, thanks for the explanation.

 

[driver_m]

6 car 323s would not fit the platforms at Leyland, Euxton or Huyton. (Or any other station between Wigan and Lime St except St Helens Ctl and Edge Hill)

Ok cheers. That knocks that on the head..Forgot they stopped at Huyton and don't sign the route to Preston so no idea on platform lengths round there.

 

[56091]

Does anyone know what diagrams the 319s are booked to work on a Sunday around the network? Hope to get as many of the diagrams as possible this Sunday - any help much appreciated.

 

[Bovverboy]

Five units are scheduled to provide the entire service on Liverpool - Wigan North Western - Preston. Of those, three should operate the full route, and two (middle of the day only) should remain restricted to Liverpool - Wigan North Western.
The only other 319s scheduled for service on a Sunday are the three which operate the basic service on Liverpool - Manchester Airport. The first journey of the day to Liverpool, and last two of the day to Manchester Airport, remain diesel-operated. This Sunday, the first journey to Liverpool commences Manchester Piccadilly instead of Manchester Airport.

Further to my own post #7 (above), the transfer of the 319 from Liverpool to Stockport CMD took place more or less as scheduled, but the movement of the 323 from Stockport to Allerton did not. I don't know whether or not such a movement has taken place since.

 

[56091]

Five units are scheduled to provide the entire service on Liverpool - Wigan North Western - Preston. Of those, three should operate the full route, and two (middle of the day only) should remain restricted to Liverpool - Wigan North Western.
The only other 319s scheduled for service on a Sunday are the three which operate the basic service on Liverpool - Manchester Airport. The first journey of the day to Liverpool, and last two of the day to Manchester Airport, remain diesel-operated. This Sunday, the first journey to Liverpool commences Manchester Piccadilly instead of Manchester Airport.

Further to my own post #7 (above), the transfer of the 319 from Liverpool to Stockport CMD took place more or less as scheduled, but the movement of the 323 from Stockport to Allerton did not. I don't know whether or not such a movement has taken place since.

Many thanks!

 

[Bovverboy]

On Saturday 10 March there are no trains scheduled to be operating in the area bounded by Manchester Victoria/Blackburn/Euxton Junction/Wigan Wallgate/Ordsall Lane Junction/Water Street Junction. Most services are to be replaced by buses, but Preston-Airport and Southport-Airport are diverted via Parkside & Chat Moss, and the Blackburn to Clitheroe section of the service from Victoria is, as per the recent norm, tagged on to the Victoria to Blackburn via Todmorden service.
The Liverpool to Manchester stopping service is diverted to, at least, Oxford Road, but in the middle of the day all journeys extend to Buxton (one journey each way) or Hazel Grove (the rest), which I think is a first for the Liverpool stoppers. There is also one journey each way which extends from Oxford Road to Piccadilly.
It looks as though all the Hazel Grove journeys are going to be diesel-operated, although there is at least one duty which never leaves the OHLE. I don't know whether or not the 319s are cleared for Hazel Grove, it seems an omission if they're not, since they're approved for almost everywhere else in the local electrified area.
The evening service will probably be 319-operated, as I suspect will be the early morning journey from Piccadilly, the unit for which stables overnight there.

 

[50032]

On Saturday 10 March there are no trains scheduled to be operating in the area bounded by Manchester Victoria/Blackburn/Euxton Junction/Wigan Wallgate/Ordsall Lane Junction/Water Street Junction. Most services are to be replaced by buses, but Preston-Airport and Southport-Airport are diverted via Parkside & Chat Moss, and the Blackburn to Clitheroe section of the service from Victoria is, as per the recent norm, tagged on to the Victoria to Blackburn via Todmorden service.
The Liverpool to Manchester stopping service is diverted to, at least, Oxford Road, but in the middle of the day all journeys extend to Buxton (one journey each way) or Hazel Grove (the rest), which I think is a first for the Liverpool stoppers. There is also one journey each way which extends from Oxford Road to Piccadilly.
It looks as though all the Hazel Grove journeys are going to be diesel-operated, although there is at least one duty which never leaves the OHLE. I don't know whether or not the 319s are cleared for Hazel Grove, it seems an omission if they're not, since they're approved for almost everywhere else in the local electrified area.
The evening service will probably be 319-operated, as I suspect will be the early morning journey from Piccadilly, the unit for which stables overnight there.

The Lime Street - Hazel Grove services I'd assume will be 319 but the Lime Street - Buxton will obviously be DMUs. Remember that Stockport CS now has x2 319's overnight, but one isn't used on a Saturday. They are cleared for Hazel Grove and have previously been diagrammed for the odd ECS working from Manchester to Stockport CS, however whether one has actually made it there I'm not sure as the signaller can usually find a way to shunt the units across at Stockport.

 

[Bovverboy]

The Lime Street - Hazel Grove services I'd assume will be 319 but the Lime Street - Buxton will obviously be DMUs.

Hmm. Of the four units scheduled to operate the Liverpool to Hazel Grove service for most of the day, two show on RTT as either starting or finishing at Buxton. They'll obviously need to be DMUs between Buxton and Hazel Grove, and there's no sign of any DMU/EMU substitutions, but that doesn't mean there won't be any, of course.
I did mention that there was at least one duty which didn't stray beyond the OHLE - there are actually two, but I'm not convinced that they'll be 319-operated, all the same.

Remember that Stockport CS now has x2 319's overnight, but one isn't used on a Saturday.

I wasn't aware that one of Stockport's 319s wasn't used on a Saturday, but I'm far from convinced that it will be used on Liverpool - Hazel Grove on 10/3. The two relevant ECS movements between Stockport CMD and Piccadilly are shown as being pathed for Pacers, which is not what I would have expected if they were 319 movements.

They are cleared for Hazel Grove and have previously been diagrammed for the odd ECS working from Manchester to Stockport CS

Since 319s have been working the Airport shuttles one has been diagrammed ECS Piccadilly to Stockport CMD, six evenings per week.

however whether one has actually made it there I'm not sure as the signaller can usually find a way to shunt the units across at Stockport.

The routine is into a platform at Stockport, usually Platform 2, back on to the viaduct, then into the CMD. The booked platform is actually 3A, but that's usually occupied by the 2234 Stockport to Wigan Wallgate.

 

[50032]

Hmm. Of the four units scheduled to operate the Liverpool to Hazel Grove service for most of the day, two show on RTT as either starting or finishing at Buxton. They'll obviously need to be DMUs between Buxton and Hazel Grove, and there's no sign of any DMU/EMU substitutions, but that doesn't mean there won't be any, of course.
I did mention that there was at least one duty which didn't stray beyond the OHLE - there are actually two, but I'm not convinced that they'll be 319-operated, all the same.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But I'd bet my house on 5T21 off Stockport CS being a 319 at least.

I wasn't aware that one of Stockport's 319s wasn't used on a Saturday, but I'm far from convinced that it will be used on Liverpool - Hazel Grove on 10/3. The two relevant ECS movements between Stockport CMD and Piccadilly are shown as being pathed for Pacers, which is not what I would have expected if they were 319 movements.

The pathing means very little, for example all the Piccadilly-Airport shuttles are still timed for 323's.

Since 319s have been working the Airport shuttles one has been diagrammed ECS Piccadilly to Stockport CMD, six evenings per week.
The routine is into a platform at Stockport, usually Platform 2, back on to the viaduct, then into the CMD. The booked platform is actually 3A, but that's usually occupied by the 2234 Stockport to Wigan Wallgate.

Not quite, you can't shunt back from P2. The unit usually goes into the bay on top of the Wigan DMU (it just fits), if not you can shunt across from P1. As long winded as it sounds, ECS moves are sometimes diagrammed to Hazel Grove when there isn't a path to shunt across the running lines at Stockport, as happened in October with a 319 ECS I mentioned.

 

[Thomas6187]

Further to my own post #7 (above), the transfer of the 319 from Liverpool to Stockport CMD took place more or less as scheduled, but the movement of the 323 from Stockport to Allerton did not. I don't know whether or not such a movement has taken place since.

Now booked for Wednesday, departing Crewe at 18:22 after working the 17:02 Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe

 

[Bovverboy]

Now booked for Wednesday, departing Crewe at 18:22 after working the 17:02 Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe

So 323s are not yet passed for Chat Moss (as reported on a different thread) and one is having to go via Crewe instead. Amazing no-one thought of that before! Shame it won't now be passing my local station.

 

[SansHache]

Class 323s have now been cleared for driver training on the Chat Moss route (and Liverpool - Preston via St Helens). Not sure when this is planned to commence.

 

[boby32]

These are the current diagrams of class 319.

http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/diagrams-17-12.html

 

[Bovverboy]

These are the current diagrams of class 319.

http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/diagrams-17-12.html

I'm afraid that they're not the current diagrams at all, they're dated 11 Dec 2017. As of 12 Feb 2018, there's an additional 319 M/F duty. I'll see if I can upload it later.

 

[Bovverboy]

I think that this is the additional 319 diagram, mentioned above.
5H43 0643 Stockport CMD to Alderley Edge ECS
2H43 0730 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly
2K49 0804 Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe
5H47 0916 Crewe to Alderley Edge ECS
2H47 0949 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly
2K37 1038 Manchester Piccadilly to Alderley Edge
2H41 1150 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly
2K42 1238 Manchester Piccadilly to Alderley Edge
2H43 1350 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly
2K46 1438 Manchester Piccadilly to Alderley Edge
2H47 1550 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly
2K30 1637 Manchester Piccadilly to Alderley Edge
2H41 1750 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly
2K36 1838 Manchester Piccadilly to Alderley Edge
5K38 1920 Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly ECS
2K38 2004 Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe
5H29 2108 Crewe to Crewe ECS (via Crewe C.E.T. Sidings)
2H44 2145 Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly
2K41 2304 Manchester Piccadilly to Alderley Edge
5H28 2345 Alderley Edge to Stockport CMD ECS
All journeys between Manchester Piccadilly and Alderley Edge/Crewe (whether in public service or ECS) operate via the direct route. (Via Stockport).

 

[John C]

Here is 319367 at Hazel Grove on the 10:35 to Liverpool Lime Street, the previous 9:35 departure was also a 319 but was unable to get the unit number.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/railphotosonline/40014184274/in/dateposted/

 

[Grannyjoans]

Are 323's going to be working Liverpool - Manchester and Liverpool - Wigan/Preston services ?

 

[northwichcat]

Are 323's going to be working Liverpool - Manchester and Liverpool - Wigan/Preston services ?

I think the plan was

323s only:
Stoke to Manchester
Macclesfield to Blackpool
Glossop/Hadfield services
Hazel Grove to Manchester

319s and 323s:
Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport & Earlestown
Crewe to Manchester via Stockport

769s:
Alderley Edge to Wigan via Bolton
Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton
Manchester Airport to Windermere via Wigan

With other services getting/retaining 319s. Given the line through Chorley won't be wired by May and 769s are unlikely to be available that's probably changed though.