Future MML rolling stock?

[BR Blue]

The Midland Main Line has been named for possible electrification during Network rail`s CP5, 2014-19. This will, surely, mean the end of the HST`s. What type of rolling stock will replace them?

Bombardier must be favourites (Britain`s only train builder) to knock out a dozen or so 8/9 carriage 125mph EMU`s. They are very likely to get the order to build panto carriages for the Meridian fleet.

I don`t think Siemans will get any extra orders this side of the next general election.

The IEP could be a contender but may have gauge difficulties due to its 26metre carriage length.

Finally, what about keeping mkIII sets and buying some AC locos and DVTs.

Ideas anyone?

 

[anthony263]

personally i think they should just use the class 222's they already have if they can be fitted with pantograph cars. That said something would have to replace the hst's

I quite like the idea of ordering some traxx locomotives, especially say if the Oxford - Coventry & Reading - Bassingstoke lines are wired as it would free up some 220's which could be used elesehwere

 

[Kingfisher200262]

The Midland Main Line has been named for possible electrification during Network rail's CP5, 2014-19. This will, surely, mean the end of the HST's. What type of rolling stock will replace them?

Bombardier must be favourites (Britain's only train builder) to knock out a dozen or so 8/9 carriage 125mph EMU's. They are very likely to get the order to build panto carriages for the Meridian fleet.

Britain's only CURRENT train builder. By the time this order is awarded, Derby may have been closed by Bombardier and Newton Aycliffe plus one other may be open.

I don't think Siemans will get any extra orders this side of the next general election.

This order won't be placed this side of the next General Election.

The IEP could be a contender but may have gauge difficulties due to its 26metre carriage length.

Wonder why they didn't think of that when they specified. Surely a "go anywhere" train would have made more sense?

Finally, what about keeping mkIII sets and buying some AC locos and DVTs.

As much as I love the Mk III, they are getting quite dated and having ridden on other, more modern designs, I think we can do better.

Ideas anyone?

Bring all the 220s, 221s and 222s together on the MML, add panto cars for them all and build new stock to replace them on Cross Country and West Coast.

 

[Class172]

Just fit the 222s with panto cars to make them EDMUs.

Displaced 220s I would put on the Cotswold line but add a panto coach and a normal coach to make them 6 cars.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would just pantograph the meridians and remove the diesel engines (even if it is temporary) Also buy traxx locos and DVT the MkIII carriges. Seems the cheaper option. Money saved not doing any new builds can be used to include. Sheffield-Moorthorpe, Swinton-Doncaster. (maybe to leeds via barnsley yet to decide on that)

 

[MCR247]

Are people assuming 222s would stretch to cover HST duties?

 

[sprinterguy]

Order around thirty brand new nine-car pure electric IEP trains: Forget about messing around with buying new electric locos to haul mark 3s; they're getting to the stage in their lives where they are due for withdrawal at the moment, let alone mid way, or more likely near the end, of the CP5 period; or bi-moding the 222s for the MML: The Great Western South West services would be a better destination for the twenty odd 222s fitted with panto cars to make seven car units and replace the remainder of the FGW HSTs.

 

[Nym]

Why not just cancel the Bi Mode IEP and order Electric IEPs for the MML, then assing the panto coaches to the 222 fleet would mean that the need for the Bi-Mode IEPs is gone, and they can be used for the bi mode required routes on the GWML...

 

[anthony263]

Are people assuming 222s would stretch to cover HST duties?

Maybe but that would be pushing it a bit. Maybe a new order of a couple of new class 222's would be ok providing Bombardier havent scrapped the jigs etc.

 

[sprinterguy]

The IEP could be a contender but may have gauge difficulties due to its 26metre carriage length.

As far as I know, the current IEP design features quite a taper beyond the current 23 metre total length between vehicle ends, as measured from the centre: This will be used to accomodate toilets and luggage space, etc, while the entrance doors will be located near enough to the locations you would find them from the vehicle centres on a twenty three metre vehicle, but with the whole of the saloon area between them used for seating.

 

[Nym]

*head desks!*

If we electrify the Midland Mainline and order LDPE electric stock to operate it, the displaced 222 stock, combined with some 221s displaced from Birmingham - Scotland by more new 390s mean that NO MORE diesel LDPE stock will need to be ordered, EVER! Including the Bi Mode IEP...

With the 22x series all converted to Bi Mode, then
***NO MORE LDPE STOCK THAT HAS SELF POWERED UNITS WILL BE NEEDED UNTIL THE 22x REACHES THE END OF IT'S LIFE!***

 

[sprinterguy]

Why not just cancel the Bi Mode IEP and order Electric IEPs for the MML, then assing the panto coaches to the 222 fleet would mean that the need for the Bi-Mode IEPs is gone, and they can be used for the bi mode required routes on the GWML...

Exactly

 

[Nym]

Elaboration...

The MML electrification will release (talking in vehicle terms)...

27 222 sets

Formed of 143 vehicles.

Would need another 52 vehicles for electrodieselification... gives 195 carrages, still 27 sets.

Now, 60% of the 533 coaches are to be Bi Mode, so thats 320 coaches, or 64 5 car units.

The 222s would provide

24 8 car units, 5 7 car units and 4 5 car units.

Displaced from electrification of Crewe - Chester and ordering pendos to cover Brum Scotland could provide a further 10 7 car 221 units when electrodieseled.

Now we have...

24 x 8car
15 x 7car
4 x 5car

Thats 43 sets (longer than the IEP sets) formed of 265 carrages, 55 short of what the IEP says we need. Now with extention of Electrification to Swansea that short fall of 55 carrages can be covered by said electrification.

Throw wires up between Bristol and Birmingham or Oxford and Birmingham and that saves enough sets to completely cover the HSTs from the B&H route, especially if it's extended down to Basingstoke and Dual Voltage capability added for the IEPs, then to be used for XC.

PS: Anyone who reads my rants on this regularly will know I have done all the maths on this and it would work quite nicely and also would work out cheaper than a Bi Mode IEP, and personally I would cancel the whole idea of not only the Bi Mode IEP but also the new LDPE Electric stock being based on MUs like this, instead being formed of LHCS. Traxx Loco and Mk.6 Carrages.

But a comfy 10 car long 23m carriage LDPE EMU would suffice nicely, with of course the ability to be loco hauled, not only for wires down but short extensions off main routes.

EDIT (WRT Below Post): I did do the analysis but for displacing the stock onto the GWML to be able to scrap this thick-o Bi Mode IEP idea!

EDIT EDIT: I would have more extensions off route...

The standard hourly pattern being...

2tph Sheffeild via Derby 1 Extended to Leeds, 1 Extended to York via Doncaster
2tph Nottingham
1tph Derby Slow (Possibly via Corby)
2tph Corby (Running over Thameslink as an extention of Bedford services)

Would 45 8, 9 or 10 car LDPE EMUs do nicely? You know, exactly the same spec as the GEML, ECML and GWML stock?

 

[HSTEd]

Right, the current 222 fleet stands at 27 sets:
54 Driving motors
89 Intermediate motors

If the entire fleet is to be converted to electrodiesel operation (as it should be) that would require an order of 27 Intermediate Pantograph Trailers assuming one per set.
That would bring the total count of vehicles to:
54 Driving Motors
116 Intermediate vehicles

This would seem to suggest a sensible fleet arrangement (by juggling all the vehicles around) of 19 6-vehicle and 8 7-vehicle sets, this would enable trains to be fairly uniform in capacity and prevent complete disasters if a shorter train has to substitute for a longer one.

If East Midlands trains were to acquire a fleet of EMUs to directly replace the HSTs (perhaps a fast accelerating EMU from the A-train family? The very rapid accelerations would improve journey times more than increasingly modest improvements in track speed) they could displace the Meridians to operating routes stretching beyond thier traditional territory.

Lets say 20 10-carriage EMUs were acquired, allowing the bulk of services below Nottingham to be entrusted to EMUs, this would permit the the electrodiesel units to be operated on extended Sheffield runs.
How would you like regular trains to Leeds and/or Manchester to provide some competition in the long distance passenger markets to those destinations, or perhaps even to Scotland in an echo of the MML of old.

I say you need electrodiesels for runs to Leeds and or Manchester because we are highly unlikely to get anything but the basic London to Sheffield via Derby route with a spur to Nottingham, I have my doubts about whether the Erewash valley would be included let alone the Hope Valley, Hallam Line or Grantham-Nottingham.

EDIT: It would appear Nym did the same analysis

 

[sprinterguy]

To jump on the bandwagon of enthusiastic folk with a grand plan for the UK rail network:

The Midland Main Line gains 30-35 x 9-car IEP electric units:
The MML HST sets are withdrawn.

East Coast gains the six 7-car 222s and four 4-car 222/1s, which are reformed into six 9-car EDMUs with two pantograph cars and four 6-car EDMUs with two pantograph cars, respectively formed as:
Nine car: DMF-MF-PTF-MRSMB-MS-PTS-MS-DMS
Six car: DMF-PTF-MC-MRSMB-PTS-DMS

The nine car sets replace the long distance ECML HST diagrams (Aberdeen/Inverness) and the six car sets replace the off the wires services completely within England (roughly), with the assumption that the East Coast also receive a fleet of thirty five 9-car IEP electric units, or up to 42 units if Aberdeen and North Transpennine (to Hull) electrification happens. Failing that, then East Coast would need to source a couple of additional electric sets to replace the four HST diagrams that are completely beneath the wires.

This leaves seventeen five-car 222s, formed into seven car sets by the addition of a pair of pantograph cars, for use on the GWML in place of the bi-mode IEP trains. This would assume GWML electrification to Swansea though, with bi-mode only required for the likes of the Cotswolds and Cheltenham services.

This would completely do away with the need for Bi-mode IEP units, and instead see a larger standard order of nine carriage electric IEPs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You know, exactly the same spec as the GEML, ECML and GWML stock?

As I also say above; the IEP project should have been designed with a more aggressive programme of electrification in mind, meaning that there would only be a requirement for a single standard design of 9-car electric trains.

 

[Grimsby town]

For me I would and a panto car to the 222s. I would the replace the 225s with 10 car IEP to increase capacity on ECML. I'd then replace the 26 hst's with the 31 225s. The frequency would then be:
1tph to Leeds via the Erewash valley
1tph to Sheffield the same calling points as today's fast
2tph to Nottingham
1tph to derby stopper
1tph corby maybe being extended to derby and Nottingham alternating every 2 hours

 

[HSTEd]

For me I would and a panto car to the 222s. I would the replace the 225s with 10 car IEP to increase capacity on ECML. I'd then replace the 26 hst's with the 31 225s. The frequency would then be:
1tph to Leeds via the Erewash valley
1tph to Sheffield the same calling points as today's fast
2tph to Nottingham
1tph to derby stopper
1tph corby maybe being extended to derby and Nottingham alternating every 2 hours

There are 13 HST set, its just listed like that because its a top and tailed formation of two locomotives and eight Mark 3s and not a multiple unit.

 

[Grimsby town]

There are 13 HST set, its just listed like that because its a top and tailed formation of two locomotives and eight Mark 3s and not a multiple unit.

Thanks. I thought that sounded a lot. In that case I'd displace the 7 car and some of 5 cars to xcountry to give them a similar fleet and order more IEP for the ECML to give them a uniform fleet

 

[BR Blue]

I expect the future east midland franchise to keep all the panto Meridians. All the cascading business is too much messing around. Example, the London Midland class 150`s. EMT are still waiting for Northern 156`s because Northern are still waiting for LM 150`s.
It`s anybody`s guess when the class 319 EMU`s become available, for the regions, due to delays to Thameslink.
I prefer a straight swap, just replace old with new. Job done.

 

[Nym]

Yeah, replace all the MML Fleet with electric IEPs and then the ED IEPs won't be needed, as they can use the 222 and 221 EDMU fleet thats going spare...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And it is replacing old with new, but the old has use elsewhere, so it's being sent...

 

[tbtc]

Electric stock really depends on what is being electrified.

Just the basic (London to Sheffield plus a branch to Derby?) or the whole thing (allowing electric operation as far as Leeds/ Doncaster?).

Because, if its done properly then I'd be wanting something "middle distance" for services like Nottingham - Leeds too.

Not sure about 125mph being needed - sounds nice but the gaps between stations aren't *huge*

 

[HSTEd]

If we get electrification all the way to Leeds/Manchester/Doncaster then Id be expecting either 110mph capable Class 350s or some kind of electrostar.

 

[Nym]

so why not iep stock? Or whatever the new standard of ldpe emu is?? That the 350 isn't..

 

[DarloRich]

What ever they buy it will be a voyager knock off. It will not be as comfortable as the trains that are replaced, they will be cramped, they will fit seats mad out of cardboard and padded by the advertiser from last week, they will be less pleasant places to be than even the 222 units.

I would even go so far as to say they would just buy another set of Desiros (or similar) and not proper IC stock. SOMETHING has to be bought as I doubt the 222 fleet can stretch to cover the increase in speed/diagrams that electrification would bring.

OMG I have had a terrible thought – cascade 91/MKIV to this route after the bloody IE CRAP is introduced- ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

 

[whhistle]

It's pretty simple :P

I would:

Get the Pioneers / Meridians together, give them to Cross Country (will there be enough?).
Give Hull Trains something else (surely the 180's would have been great for the micro fleet?).



Order new Pendolinos / Other Next Gen (InterCity EMU) to replace all trains on MML route.

OR

When Virgin get the East Coast route, they will replace the MK4 + 91's which can then go to the MML.



Give Voyagers from Cross Country (which have been displaced by Meridians) to either: Anglia or Northern areas to displace Sprinters and try and get some common stock in areas.
Ideally, the West Coast Voyagers would also be included in this (could the 180's be cleared for Virgin Wales route use?)

OR

Give the HST's from MML and East Coast to Cross Country, releasing Voyagers and Meridians for use in Anglia / Northern.



If new electric stock is ordered for East Coast or MML, the same should be ordered for GWML (added to the end of the order to give time for the GWML electrification). Alternatively, give the MK4 stock to the GWML - whoever can make most use of the entire stock.

 

[Yew]

Is it bad that I hope we end up with some of db's new ice stock.

 

[ainsworth74]

Get the Pioneers / Meridians together, give them to Cross Country (will there be enough?).

Depends on what you want to do, if you're talking about replacing Voyagers with Meridans then no, there are 27 222s currently with EMT whilst XC operate 57 220s/221s.

When Virgin get the East Coast route, they will replace the MK4 + 91's which can then go to the MML.

Sorry did I miss the entire bid process for ICEC? When did Virgin win it and when did they say they would replace all the rolling stock on the franchise?

Give Voyagers from Cross Country to either: Anglia or Northern areas to displace Sprinters and try and get some common stock in areas.

What services do Northern or Greater Anglia run that would require 125mph DEMUs? Granted Northern currently use 180s but that is only a temporary situation until more suitable rolling stock is cascaded along to replace them.

Ideally, the West Coast Voyagers would also be included in this (could the 180's be cleared for Virgin Wales route use?)

180s don't tilt so top speed on the WCML would be 110mph.

Give the HST's from MML and East Coast to Cross Country, releasing Meridians for use in Anglia / Northern.

Again what do Greater Anglia and Northern run that would be a good use for 125mph DEMUs? Also what use would EC have more HSTs? If anything they need more EMUs!

Is it bad that I hope we end up with some of db's new ice stock.

Yes because it wouldn't fit onto our infrastructure, so the first station it arrived at would either lose a few inches off it's edges or more likely wreck the side of the ICE unit

 

[YorkshireBear]

Voyagers and meridians should not be cascaded to routes with northern. I can imagine a nottingham carlisle service maybe using them but nothing else northern operate is really suitable. They need to be used to operate express services along lines that will never see electrification. Cant think of many right now though... :/
Chiltern? People being saying the DMUs dont accelerate well so would a 5/6/7 car meridian be of use there.

 

[talltim]

It's pretty simple :P

I would:

Get the Pioneers / Meridians together, give them to Cross Country (will there be enough?).
Give Hull Trains something else (surely the 180's would have been great for the micro fleet?).

The Pioneers and Meridians are together, with EMT
Hull Trains do have 180s. They are so unreliable that sometimes they are Hull Train

 

[HSTEd]

so why not iep stock? Or whatever the new standard of ldpe emu is?? That the 350 isn't..

I meant for things like Nottingham-Leeds or wherever, that isnt really an LDPE journey, the 222s will be the mainstay of the MML for the forseable future as they will likely just extend services to Leeds or Manchester which would require electrodiesel capability due to likelyhood of us getting Hope Valley/Hallam/Lower Wakefield electrification being slight at best.

Also if they did the first few miles of the Oakham to Kettering line they could run 350 style stock on the stopper to Corby as that is pretty much outer suburban distances from London, its further south than Peterborough.