Future HST usage as the Royal Train?

[fairysdad]

Inspired by this comment on this thread:

I saw the film. It's good that they're encouraging a sense of pride in the railway and its history. Maybe when the new trains are all here, they'll keep an InterCity 125 for special occasions.

Not necessarily whether it *will* happen, but in theory, *could* a HST rake be used for the Royal Train? It seems to be a versatile go-almost-anywhere train (well, if they use the short links for third-rail country!), and is a rather iconic train. (Plus, I reckon it'd look good in the Royal Train livery!)

 

[Ash Bridge]

Inspired by this comment on this thread:



Not necessarily whether it *will* happen, but in theory, *could* a HST rake be used for the Royal Train? It seems to be a versatile go-almost-anywhere train (well, if they use the short links for third-rail country!), and is a rather iconic train. (Plus, I reckon it'd look good in the Royal Train livery!)

The only negative to my mind is could you find a use for the power cars when not on Royal Train duties, wouldn't do them a lot of good stood idle for weeks/months in between royal jobs, a locomotive can be employed elsewhere to keep it active or earn its keep.

 

[syorksdeano]

Inspired by this comment on this thread:



Not necessarily whether it *will* happen, but in theory, *could* a HST rake be used for the Royal Train? It seems to be a versatile go-almost-anywhere train (well, if they use the short links for third-rail country!), and is a rather iconic train. (Plus, I reckon it'd look good in the Royal Train livery!)

The only negative to my mind is could you find a use for the power cars when not on Royal Train duties, wouldn't do them a lot of good stood idle for weeks/months in between royal jobs, a locomotive can be employed elsewhere to keep it active or earn its keep.

Well most of the Royal family sit around doing nothing all day so why can't the power cars

 

[gazthomas]

Well most of the Royal family sit around doing nothing all day so why can't the power cars

:roll:

 

[Townsend Hook]

It would seem a bit pointless to go from using relatively modern class 67s to 70s-vintage HST power cars; doubly so when, as pointed out earlier, the current locos can be used for other purposes when not on Royal duties.

 

[The47Wanderer]

Could be used for freight...

 

[gazthomas]

How about a Royal Train 156 or 158?

 

[richard1976]

Give them a 142

 

[gazthomas]

Give them a 142

Ha ha, or how about an ePacer. Or an rPacer - r=Royalty!

 

[pdeaves]

(Plus, I reckon it'd look good in the Royal Train livery!)

Certainly the coaching stock would, as some of the royal train vehicles are Mark 3s anyway.

 

[70271]

If the power cars were to come from a pool that is in day to day use then theoretically there probably isn't any real issue. If they are stand alone and are for Royal use only then I suspect the power cars won't appreciate being stood down for months on end...

 

[Temple Meads]

Yet another solution looking for a problem.

 

[g8396]

I think the use of a 442 as the royal train should be considered. Then use a power car to drag it when its not on 3rd rail.

 

[MK Tom]

Posts before class 442 suggested: 13. That's not bad.

 

[colchesterken]

The currant royal train is mostly mk3 s, so converting a few ex HST coaches and re wiring the ones they have now is a good cheap solution. if they used power cars from general stock they could have a special wash and vinyl royal standards and union flags applied

 

[route:oxford]

Yet another solution looking for a problem.

Not so sure about a Royal Train as such...

But much of the HST stock heading to Scotland, perhaps a Scottish State Train would be appropriate?

Nicola is, after all, in many Scot's eyes the "Queen of Scots".

 

[marks87]

But much of the HST stock heading to Scotland, perhaps a Scottish State Train would be appropriate?

Some of the ex-Haymarket 158s are already in a state...

 

[sprinterguy]

Well most of the Royal family sit around doing nothing all day so why can't the power cars

You seem to be making the elemental mistake of confusing members of the royal family with items of oily, mechanical machinery with complex electrical circuits. They behave quite differently when exposed to extended periods of inactivity.

And anyway, how do you know that the Royal family "sit around doing nothing" out of the public eye? They might indulge in all manner of different exercises to keep themselves limber.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The only negative to my mind is could you find a use for the power cars when not on Royal Train duties, wouldn't do them a lot of good stood idle for weeks/months in between royal jobs, a locomotive can be employed elsewhere to keep it active or earn its keep.

Though I appreciate that things were different in their latter days with EWS, I can't remember that the two dedicated class 47s, 47798/799, were often employed on anything outside of royal train duties in RES days, and their availability didn't seem to suffer then.

The Royal Train vehicles are maintained to a high standard at Wolverton, so I see no reason why this level of care couldn't be extended to a pair of HST power cars: Network Rail seem able to maintain a regular set of weekly diagrams (destinations vary, but the set is used regularly) based around three power cars, so the occasional movement of the Royal train should be easy enough to facilitate with a comparable arrangement of power cars.

 

[Russardo]

If the power cars were to come from a pool that is in day to day use then theoretically there probably isn't any real issue. If they are stand alone and are for Royal use only then I suspect the power cars won't appreciate being stood down for months on end...

I don't get these comments that are always banded about - trains sitting idle for a while surely can't be that big an issue? As long as the batteries aren't left to drain (do depots use trickle charge?) and water ingress is prevented what's the problem?

 

[D365]

Ha ha, or how about an ePacer. Or an rPacer - r=Royalty!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Though I appreciate that things were different in their latter days with EWS, I can't remember that the two dedicated class 47s, 47798/799, were often employed on anything outside of royal train duties in RES days, and their availability didn't seem to suffer then.

To my mind though with a pair of loco's such as the Royal 47's if one of them did fail to start or develop a fault (and perhaps they did on occasion) when required to work a Royal Train duty you have at least the other one to fall back on which could work the train single handed, you don't have this option with a single HST powercar.

 

[70271]

I don't get these comments that are always banded about - trains sitting idle for a while surely can't be that big an issue? As long as the batteries aren't left to drain (do depots use trickle charge?) and water ingress is prevented what's the problem?

If in dry warm storage they should be fine, but if left outside with no use for periods of time (even with being looked after) then you'll always get water ingress onto the electronics through condensation which day to day use wards off, and that is a minimum. The roof on a power car also leaks quite well so that won't help. To begin with you won't get much issue but if kept like this over time then you'll start to get a few issues. Another consideration is if the power car isn't going to be in use for a month or more then you have to prepare the engine in a storage mode (theoretically...).

 

[sprinterguy]

To my mind though with a pair of loco's such as the Royal 47's if one of them did fail to start or develop a fault (and perhaps they did on occasion) when required to work a Royal Train duty you have at least the other one to fall back on which could work the train single handed, you don't have this option with a single HST powercar.

Wait a minute, who has suggested using only one power car? I assumed that there would be a pair, as per their current method of operation. Same level of redundancy as with a pair of locomotives.

The Royal Train typically operates with up to ten or eleven carriages, far too many for a single HST power car to handle.

One other point to consider (just noticed that this has already been mentioned further up the thread), of course, is that the current Royal Train consist of a mix of loco-hauled mark 2 and mark 3 coaches with standard 1000V train supply, rather than the three phase supply used by HSTs. I am assuming here that either the existing mark 3s could be converted to three phase supply, or the Royal Train gets a completely new replacement set of HST mark 3s.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Wait a minute, who has suggested using only one power car? I assumed that there would be a pair, as per their current method of operation. Same level of redundancy as with a pair of locomotives.

The Royal Train typically operates with up to ten or eleven carriages, far too many for a single HST power car to handle.

Ah, we have a slight misunderstanding here, what I meant was if one of the two power cars was unavailable, and that the remaining one would be insufficient, sorry should have made that clearer.

 

[sprinterguy]

Ah, we have a slight misunderstanding here, what I meant was if one of the two power cars was unavailable, and that the remaining one would be insufficient, sorry should have made that clearer.

Ah, fair enough, that makes sense. That's why I briefly touched upon keeping a third power car as a spare, in a similar manner to Network Rail: There's generally a third locomotive provided for Royal Train duty during busy periods (47787 during the Golden Jubilee year, 67026 for the Diamond Jubilee) anyway, though I admit that these locos have the flexibility to be out earning their keep elsewhere when not being called upon to perform royal duties, which HST power cars would not be able to do.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Ah, fair enough, that makes sense. That's why I briefly touched upon keeping a third power car as a spare, in a similar manner to Network Rail: There's generally a third locomotive provided for Royal Train duty during busy periods (47787 during the Golden Jubilee year, 67026 for the Diamond Jubilee) anyway, though I admit that these locos have the flexibility to be out earning their keep elsewhere when not being called upon to perform royal duties, which HST power cars would not be able to do.

Now you mention NR powercars just made me think that perhaps the Royal powercars could find occasional work on the NR train to keep them active when not performing RT duties?

 

[Wivenswold]

Inspired by this comment on this thread:



Not necessarily whether it *will* happen, but in theory, *could* a HST rake be used for the Royal Train? It seems to be a versatile go-almost-anywhere train (well, if they use the short links for third-rail country!), and is a rather iconic train. (Plus, I reckon it'd look good in the Royal Train livery!)

It would be very useful when the royals flee back to Germany when the UK becomes a Republic.

 

[Carntyne]

Why would you use an older loco? 67s are plenty as it is.

 

[fairysdad]

Yet another solution looking for a problem.

That's why I asked a purely theoretical question about it. I know that it wouldn't happen, partially down to knowing that the current locos are newer than a HST is. (That said, I assume that the HSTs are route cleared for more places than the 67s are as I alluded to in my opening post.)

(Although the 67s are newer than the 43s, I believe that the Royal Train has used steam locos in the past, so perhaps age isn't an issue for HM!)

The currant royal train is mostly mk3 s, so converting a few ex HST coaches and re wiring the ones they have now is a good cheap solution. if they used power cars from general stock they could have a special wash and vinyl royal standards and union flags applied

One other point to consider, of course, is that the current Royal Train consist of a mix of loco-hauled mark 2 and mark 3 coaches with standard 1000V train supply, rather than the three phase supply used by HSTs. I am assuming here that either the existing mark 3s could be converted to three phase supply, or the Royal Train gets a completely new replacement set of HST mark 3s.

I didn't realise that the Royal Train's coaches were a mix of MkIIs and MkIIIs, I assumed that it was a set of standard coaches - must admit though, I've never thought about it fully.

The Royal Train typically operates with up to ten or eleven carriages, far too many for a single HST power car to handle.

... I didn't realise that either that it was a flexible number of coaches in the rake, again, I assumed that it was a fixed set of coaches used. I've looked into it a bit now, and see that it depends on which member of the Royal Family is using the train as to which coaches are being used.

 

[najaB]

That said, I assume that the HSTs are route cleared for more places than the 67s are as I alluded to in my opening post.

Using the Scotland sectional appendix (since I have it to hand) it looks like the 43s are cleared more or less everywhere except some freight-only branches.