Future for rail in south west Wales

[Western 52]

I guess if the proposed Swansea North station gets built some GWR services could split at Port Talbot? 5 cars to Neath and Swansea and 5 to Carmarthen or further via the District Line. Nice straight platform at Port Talbot for coupling sets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2021 ==

Comments on points above:

1) Being as only Tenby, Manorbier, and Pembroke are the intermediate stations that are normal stops with the rest being request stops, would it only actually reduce the run time by 1 minute for every 2 consecutive request stop stations?

2) This is a major concern of mine especially with anything that involves lengthy single track sections.

3) If the signalling system allows, an option could be for the existing London - Swansea to operate as 2x5 coupling/uncoupling at Port Talbot Parkway (the station is an island platform and has Relief Lines as the outer tracks (similar to London Underground's Metropolitan Line between Finchley Road and Wembley Park) so as not to block anything else behind).

I think you just beat me to the Port Talbot idea!

 

[Jez]

There are missed opportunities in South West Wales, namely Pembroke Dock line and quick access to Cardiff and direct access to Cardiff Airport.
With so many small stops its difficult to find a good balance to provide a reliable yet workable service to serve all small stations between Carmarthen and Cardiff whilst also achieving a fast service.
I've always been surprised how Milford Haven is the favoured 2 hourly direct destination for Manchester services and not Pembroke Dock, especially in Summer.
The introduction of loco services Swansea-Manchester will mean a change is needed to provide services West of Swansea. Currently the hourly Manchester services are split between terminating Milford Haven or Carmarthen. So I would expect when the locos start that the milford Haven services will continue and there will be a need for an hourly Swansea- West to connect with the loco to retain the hourly Carmarthen services. Hopefully these will be extended to Pembroke Dock and Fishguard.

There also needs to be some joined up thinking, especially for tourists, aside from Tenby and Pembroke itself, how accessible are the other stations to relevant towns or holidays parks/tourist hot spots. If not that great then we'll advertised and interlining bus services are needed.

I can see more Cardiff - Carmarthen or further West services being required as the loco will not be calling at swanline stations and bridgend-Cardiff intermediate stations. Is a 2 hourly service for Swanline stations really progression?

My own personal suggestion would be to have a Cardiff - Pembroke Dock or Fishguard 2 hourly service that goes via the VOG, running fast to Barry & calling at Rhoose for the Airport, then swanline stations to Swansea, all stops to Pembroke Dock or Fishguard. It won't be the faster service by any stretch but will provide an alternative serving more stations, including a direct link to the Airport from the West. It will also support peak demand between Cardiff and Barry.
Manchester - Milford services call at Swanline and intermediate stations West of Swansea as well, as they currently do, providing an hourly service on intermediate stations.

Tied in with the loco people have the option to get a faster service between Cardiff and Swansea with an additional 2 hourly Cardiff-West Wales train following shortly behind. Similarly if coming from the West and connecting a Swansea, the option to change onto the loco for the faster service heading east, or stay on the stopper to Cardiff.

Swanline did have a separate 2 hourly service pre Covid timetable and only a small amount of Manchester trains called at Swanline stations in the morning/evening peak. Id suggest that Swanline deserves to go hourly and have a separate service from the core West Wales-Manchester service when things get back to normal and the new trains arrive. I live far closer to a Swanline station than i do to main line stations and for me if im going to Cardiff/Swansea or one of the towns on this route its far more convenient for me to go to my local Swanline station than drive to one of the main line stations but what puts me off is the infrequent 2 hourly service with massive gaps at some parts of the day - e.g 1904 Cardiff to Swanline stations, next service from Cardiff stopping at Swanline not for another 4 hours. Also there are massive gaps in the morning for Cardiff bound passengers, a service about 640am from Swansea to Cardiff and then nothing until after 910am!! The Swanline timetable seems to be more convenient for those travelling towards Swansea rather than Cardiff with an hourly Swansea bound service in the morning from 6.30-9.30ish and then the same in the evening with services stopping from 5pm-7pm ish hourly. Perhaps there just isnt a market for enough Cardiff bound passengers from these stations.

As for West Wales - I can see Manchester services terminating at Swansea every 2 hours, the other other hour will probabaly go to Milford (fast to Carmarthen) as now. That leaves a gap for a 2 hourly Swansea-Pembroke Dock in the hour the Milford isnt running, providing a reasonable connection from the Manchester service. Therefore if they want to make Swansea-Carmarthen half hourly we need an hourly Swansea-Carmarthen to bridge the gap between the Milford/Pembroke services. Perhaps if Swanline is to go hourly they could extend that to Carmathen and possibly have a Cardiff/Newport-Carmarthen stopping at all stations (apart from Pencoed/Llanharan etc which is covered elsewhere). Even if Swanline is to remain 2 hourly its still an idea to extend to Carmarthen. It will prevent West Wales passengers from having to change at Swansea if they are going onwards to Cardiff or Newport.

 

[30907]

Comments on points above:

1) Being as only Tenby, Manorbier, and Pembroke are the intermediate stations that are normal stops with the rest being request stops, would it only actually reduce the run time by 1 minute for every 2 consecutive request stop stations?

Yes, only marginal, though I would have guessed at 1min/stop as timings assume a 0-sec stop at a request stop IIRC.

2) This is a major concern of mine especially with anything that involves lengthy single track sections.

Indeed.

3) If the signalling system allows, an option could be for the existing London - Swansea to operate as 2x5 coupling/uncoupling at Port Talbot Parkway (the station is an island platform and has Relief Lines as the outer tracks (similar to London Underground's Metropolitan Line between Finchley Road and Wembley Park) so as not to block anything else behind).

Allowing for extra time on the Swansea portion, not sure that offers a huge advantage over reversing at Swansea, and is slower than the Cardiff option - 1 unit fewer though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Regarding Whitland - Tenby running hourly just using the loop at Tenby, would the timetable be robust enough?

There are multiple opportunities to reduce the journey time that would add up to sufficient time.
1. the signalling - surely ERTMS would render the 3-4 minutes that the driver spends getting and returning tokens unnecessary.
2. three stop-and-blow level crossings between Manorbier and Pembroke Dock
3. plunger operated Manorbier crossing (I think that's still the case)

Could expect in 10 years that (1) will happen; (2) needs someone to care about applying for a change - it's a pointless system... ; (3) needs money.

As I said in post #10. Better accelerating units would probably be enough. Perhaps putting barriers on a couple of the crossings if more time is needed. No need for ETCS.

 

[fishwomp]

Crossing moves seem to be booked in 3 minutes, could save max 2 but probably 1.
Running alternate trains "fast" might ease matters by a couple of minutes.
Faster-accelerating units might help?
However, I am wary of running a timetable that demands very high punctuality over a long-ish distance such as Swansea-Pembroke.

The passing moves at Tenby are a little worse than 3 minutes - often arr-dep is 10 in down direction, and 2-3 in the up. This is presumably more about reliability than the extra driver operated token system.

 

[Western 52]

Swansea Bay and West Wales Metro project needs strong backing

The transport project could result in more frequent, faster and better connected trains and buses

www.walesonline.co.uk

Interesting to see this article on Wales Online. Lools like some improvement may arrive if funding can be secured. Even talk of passenger services on freight lines and a local service terminating at Burry Port! Maybe mostly wishful thinking, but four authorities are backing the concept.

 

[Caaardiff]

Is there any reason why the district line and main line couldn't be linked at Skewen/Llansamlet? I was looking at google maps and notice they pass by each other near Skewen/M4 and the district line passes through Skewen/Llandarcy, i assume underneath the mainline. There was a lot of backlash that if the Disctrict line is used for new or more direct services to West Wales that Neath would lose out. Are the lines at a big difference in level?

 

[Western 52]

Is there any reason why the district line and main line couldn't be linked at Skewen/Llansamlet? I was looking at google maps and notice they pass by each other near Skewen/M4 and the district line passes through Skewen/Llandarcy, i assume underneath the mainline. There was a lot of backlash that if the Disctrict line is used for new or more direct services to West Wales that Neath would lose out. Are the lines at a big difference in level?

I think there was a connection many years ago. Not sure how feasible reinstatement would be though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Restore the Saturday "HST" (OK, we'll have to have an Hitachi)..

Mention was made in another thread that class 800s may find it difficult to negotiate Narberth tunnel; has that now been scotched? In which case, could the London to Pembroke Dock service be reinstated for summer Saturdays using class 800s?

The original Intercity Express Programme plans showed that the line west of Carmarthen would not be cleared for class 800s and the GWR franchise agreement stated that the Pembroke Dock summer Saturday service would be withdrawn when the IC125s went. This led many people (myself included) to assume that Narberth tunnel had been looked at and clearance found to be uneconomic. However, when the electrification to Swansea was cancelled the government were looking for a way to soften the blow and GWR / Network Rail were ordered to reinstate the Pembroke Dock summer Saturday services. I have been to Pembroke Dock on a class 800, so it turned out Narberth tunnel wasn't a problem after all.

No electrification. There’s not enough of a long term firm future for the lines unfortunately in my view. Services not frequent enough to warrant it as well. Cheap (as possible) line speed improvements are idea for reliability.

No electrification - a hybrid battery might contribute nicely to the acceleration out of Tenby and Kilgetty, or out of Milford Haven, or Fishguard! eg. the diesel engine gets the extra oomph of the battery

It appears Network Rail disagrees with you both on this. The Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy recommends the whole network in Pembrokeshire for electrification (although it does indicate that the case for this is poor west of Carmarthen) although I suspect this might be due to the freight service which cannot be handled by battery or hydrogen and needs to be electrically hauled if it continues. However, with the freight being oil products it might not last that long, and even then the Fishguard and Pembroke Dock branches have no freight. With potential for three trains an hour between Carmarthen and Llanelli (two to Swansea and one to Cardiff) I do however agree with Network Rail that there is a good case for electrification south from Carmarthen, perhaps with battery operation west of there instead of the electrification Network Rail suggests if a longer-term future for freight cannot be established.

New station sites

Please no - improve the journey time.

Potential for more commuters to Swansea and the main towns.

Given the speed of the roads.. the railway needs to improve its performance to make this have a chance. Remove the stop-toot-and-go level crossings (replace with slower toot-but-not-stop.. or lights) and you knock 3 minutes of journey time at the Pembroke end..

This. The Welsh Government look set to spend £60m further speeding up the A40 between Whitland and Haverfordwest; I feel like I spent half of 2020 arguing against this but it looks like it's going ahead - I'm losing the will to live. The railway has to do something to compete with this and, as such, I don't think the Fishguard and Milford Haven services should call at the promised new St. Clears station.

New or reopened routes.

Not enough population to do anything sensible I'm afraid..

The only thing I can think of in Pembrokeshire is connecting Pembroke and Pembroke Dock to Haverfordwest via Neyland, creating a circular route from Whitland. There is enough car traffic over the Cleddau Bridge (and, in particularly, into Haverfordwest from the south) at peak times to make me think 'something needs to be done here'. Probably would have to be bus-based rather than rail-based though, because a low-level Cleddau Bridge for trains wouldn't have clearance for shipping underneath it and the need probably isn't great enough to attract the kind of funding that would be required. If you could do it with a railway though, Pembroke Dock to Carmarthen might be faster via Haverfordwest than via Tenby.

With so many small stops its difficult to find a good balance to provide a reliable yet workable service to serve all small stations between Carmarthen and Cardiff whilst also achieving a fast service.

The way I think of it, the Pembroke Dock line (at least west of Tenby) is so indirect compared to the road network that any time competitive traffic is already lost on that route anyway so the Pembroke Dock service might as well call at all stations, leaving the Milford Haven and Fishguard to Swansea services free to miss out St. Clears, Ferryside and Kidwelly. The only problem with this approach is that the Pembroke Dock line is only a service every two hours, wereas I think St. Clears, Ferryside and Kidwelly should have an hourly service.

As for a faster service to Cardiff, going via Swansea is so slow that I feel everything going into Swansea might as well terminate there. A half-hourly 'fast' (Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend) between Swansea and Cardiff (one Manchester and one Paddington each hour) connecting with a half-hourly Swansea-Carmarthen (one all-stops and the other missing out Kidwelly and Ferryside as noted above) would be a good approach I reckon. For Cardiff, then I believe an hourly express service is needed to Carmarthen via the Swansea District Line calling at just Port Talbot, Morriston and Llanelli (although I'd settle for every 2hrs) using either a 158 or a 175.

To my (outsiders) eyes, Pembroke looks like at least as big a market as Milford Haven but the single track with only one passing place makes it hard to provide a good/ simple service there.

Pembroke Dock and/or Pembroke probably would but the indirect route via Tenby works against it compared to the relatively fast service to Haverfordwest and Milford Haven. The Saturday HST is/was fairly empty west of Tenby as far as I know and I suspect it's the journey time that kills demand further west.

I like the idea of 1tph on the Pembroke line as staycations (hopefully) boom.

There's then the problem of Tenby. Especially if you're tying to run a fairly clock face service to both Milford Haven and Pembroke. Whitland - Milford Haven - Whitland is roughly an hour and a half (with no break) whilst Whitland - Pembroke - Whitland is more like two and a half hours. But that's not the real problem, Tenby is. Tenby is half an hour from Pembroke Dock, and the only passing place (west of Whitland) so an hourly service on the Pembroke line would only work if you only had it as far as Tenby, with a bi-hourly service west of Tenby.

Those things are both 'real' problems. The level crossing upgrades west of Tenby that have been promised for years might reduce the time from Tenby to Pembroke Dock enough to make an hourly service reliable - but you then have the problem that Whitland - Pembroke Dock - Whitland takes roughly two hours while Whitland - Milford/Fishguard - Whitland (with a layover of about 20mins in Fishguard before heading back) takes more like an hour and 40 minutes. That means, if you had an even half-hourly service from Swansea to Whitland going west the Pembroke and Milford trains would only be a few minutes apart when heading back to Swansea.

That leaves you with two options for tidying things up, trying to save a few minutes between Tenby and Whitland (so that you can run hourly Pembroke Dock - Whitland as a standalone shuttle) or building a dynamic passing loop somewhere near Templeton to allow the service to fit into the half-hourly pattern east of Whitland. Unfortunately the latter option limits the service on the Pembroke Dock line to every two hours since you'd need a second new passing loop to make it hourly. The Templeton - Pembroke Dock block section would be too long for an hourly service and the Tenby loop is in the wrong place to be much use (although you could use it during disruption and to enable the odd railtour to Tenby without having to cut the regular service at all).

The former site of Templeton Platform is a straight section of track, and would enable a 60 minute frequency between east of Whitland and Tenby (if every 60 minutes to Pembroke Dock, then the passing loop at Manorbier also needs reinstating).

Sadly, I don't think a 60 minute frequency to Tenby is possible with the Templeton loop (my preference is for it to be a dynamic loop with no station for speed reasons, although if you closed Saundersfoot station and openned Templeton instead I suppose it wouldn't be much slower than now) - it needs to be hourly all the way to Pembroke Dock with the loop at Manorbier otherwise the unit terminating at Tenby needs to sit there for an half and a half before it can come back, using as many units as going hourly all the way to Pembroke Dock would.

The more I look at the roads vs twisty railways and hear how slow the trains are the more its hard to ignore the elephant in the room that is saying to stop at Camarthen and run decent buses from there!

Bus might even be able to go through the middle of all the bigger places (where people want to go) and still be quicker, and also use the bridge to do round trips via Pembroke and Milford Haven offering much better connectivity across Pembrokeshire.

It's mainly only the A477 (and possibly the A40) that is a particularly fast road, largely because a load of stupid bypasses have been built meaning a bus wouldn't go through the middle of even the smaller places if it used the main road and it would be really slow compared to the car if it did go through those places. Something I have thought would be a good idea for a while would be a train every two hours to Pembroke Dock (using the new Templeton dynamic loop mentioned above to allow it to fit into the clockface pattern) with a fast Llandeilo - Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock bus along the A40 and A477 in the other hours running non-stop from Carmarthen to Milton (seemingly the only village on the A477 that hasn't been completely bypassed).

Whilst passenger numbers wouldn't be huge id love a couple of trains a day that link Bristol with Fishguard that connect to and from the Irish boats.

The ferries from Fishguard Harbour are a key reason why through services from east of Swansea are needed west of Carmarthen. Personally, I think both sailings should have a connecting express train both to and from at least Cardiff via the Swansea District Line (meaning the current evening service needs to be diverted from it's current destination of Swansea to Cardiff). These should call at only Fishguard & Goodwick, Whitland, Carmarthen, Llanelli, Morriston Tawe Valley Parkway and Port Talbot Parkway. I've left Bridgend out mainly to avoid the service being flooded by short-distance passengers out of Cardiff to give long-distance passengers a better chance of a seat. These boat trains would be one of the extensions of the regular pattern suggested below:

• 1tph Swansea, Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port, Kidwelly, Ferryside, Carmarthen, St. Clears, Whitland
  • 0.5tph extension to Pembroke Dock
• 1tph Swansea, Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port, Carmarthen, Whitland, Clunderwen, Clarbeston Road
  • several trains per day extended to Fishguard Harbour, combining with the boat trains below to provide a service every 2 hours with some 3 hour gaps
  • all services not bound for Fishguard extended to Milford Haven
• 1tph Carmarthen, Llanelli, Morriston Tawe Valley Parkway, Port Talbot Parkway, Cardiff Central
  • 2 trains per day extended to Fishguard Harbour, as noted above
  • several trains per day extended to Milford Haven, calling at Whitland, Haverfordwest and maybe Johnston, plugging all the gaps in the Swansea service above to give a roughly hourly service (with the Cardiff fasts being about 7-10 minutes ahead/behind the normal clockface pattern due to needing to follow / be followed by the Swansea service between Llanelli and Clarbeston Road)

looking hard for targeted upgrades that can increase speed (mainly with the aim of hitting those clock face possibilities).

The obvious one is the 20/25mph section just south of Carmarthen. It doesn't help make things clockface, since it's on the double-track mainline to Swansea, but would save a fair bit of time if made up to 55mph to match the track immediately south of there and, since this route uses Absolute Block signalling, would also reduce headways allowing a Cardiff to Fishguard fast train to run just ahead of a Swansea to Milford Haven to provide connections between the two.

There also needs to be some joined up thinking, especially for tourists, aside from Tenby and Pembroke itself, how accessible are the other stations to relevant towns or holidays parks/tourist hot spots. If not that great then we'll advertised and interlining bus services are needed.

I don't think Bluestone / Blue Lagoon / Oakwood (holiday accomodation, swimming pool with wave machine and flumes and theme park) are served by public transport at all at present - much improved bus links are needed both within the county and to rail stations.

Longer term don't forget the suggest Swansea metro, seeing new stations on the district line. Somehow that will likely tie in with West wales services for any operation to make sense.

In another thread, I recently mentioned that I would be supportive of the following service pattern:

1tph Cardiff - Carmarthen via Swansea District, calling Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Neath Road (for M4 Junction 45), Tircoed for Penllergaer (and M4 Junction 47), Llangennech, Bynea, Llanelli, and Carmarthen.

I think Tircoed for Penllergaer (and M4 Junction 47), Llangennech and Bynea should be left for the Swansea Metro, adding more than one stop between Port Talbot and Llanelli would slow the service down meaning it might as well go via Swansea High Street. I only include Morriston Tawe Valley Parkway at all because of the potential demand coming down the A4067 and B4603 - if a different Swansea Parkway option was pursuded (I believe junction 46 is currently a front-runner) I would oppose the Carmarthen service calling there.

1) Being as only Tenby, Manorbier, and Pembroke are the intermediate stations that are normal stops with the rest being request stops, would it only actually reduce the run time by 1 minute for every 2 consecutive request stop stations?

I thought Manorbier was a request stop in one direction, with the mandatory stop in the other direction being to operate the plunger for the level crossing, but checking the GWR journey planner it seems I was mistaken and it is marked as a normal stop both ways.

Id suggest that Swanline deserves to go hourly and have a separate service from the core West Wales-Manchester service when things get back to normal and the new trains arrive.

I agree, it needs to be a seperate Cardiff-Swansea hourly local service run by 231s or (E)197s - I would like to see it call at all stations if possible rather than running fast east of Bridgend (probably requires a 4 track section to allow it to be overtaken).

Is there any reason why the district line and main line couldn't be linked at Skewen/Llansamlet? I was looking at google maps and notice they pass by each other near Skewen/M4 and the district line passes through Skewen/Llandarcy, i assume underneath the mainline. There was a lot of backlash that if the Disctrict line is used for new or more direct services to West Wales that Neath would lose out. Are the lines at a big difference in level?

I think the Swansea District Line is in a tunnel fairly deep under Llansamlet. I would suggest however that a SDL-Gorseinion-Gowerton link would be far more useful (allowing a faster route into Swansea from Ammanford) than linking the two lines near Llansamlet. Neath wouldn't be on the new express service to Carmarthen, but neither would Swansea and if Swansea isn't on it why should Neath be? It needs to be a new service though, with Swansea and Neath retaining their current frequency albeit with a need to change in Swansea if going from Neath to somewhere west of Swansea.