Future Electrification Schemes

[sprinterguy]

Down with the bi-mode IEP!!!

Hear hear!

 

[Metroland]

All main lines should be electrified without delay, and alternatives to copper for power and signalling be deployed as soon as possible.

It cannot be underestimated to serious inflationary pressure that rising food and energy prices are going to create in the next ten years, we need a plan B.

Politicians and the public at large have dragged their feet far too long on these issues, indeed most people do get it that 'business as usual' is now over, just ask most academics in this area. Judging by reports in last weeks guardian, governments have dragged their heals for too long, and not preparing the public. Though that is changing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/15/peak-oil-warning

The Fukushima disaster has caused many western countries to cancel their nuclear programmes or significantly review them. France is expected to have blackouts this year, as rivers for cooling nuclear plants are dangerously low.

The bottom line is transport ought to be a planned around a lower energy future where walking, cycling, electric rail and trolley/battery buses play a far bigger role than the do now, powered by natural renewable energy.

 

[YorkshireBear]

All main lines should be electrified without delay, and alternatives to copper for power and signalling be deployed as soon as possible.

It cannot be underestimated to serious inflationary pressure that rising food and energy prices are going to create in the next ten years, we need a plan B.

Politicians and the public at large have dragged their feet far too long on these issues, indeed most people do get it that 'business as usual' is now over, just ask most academics in this area. Judging by reports in last weeks guardian, governments have dragged their heals for too long, and not preparing the public. Though that is changing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/15/peak-oil-warning

The Fukushima disaster has caused many western countries to cancel their nuclear programmes or significantly reviewing them. France is expected to have blackouts this year, as rivers for cooling nuclear plants are dangerously low.

The bottom line is transport ought to be a planned around a lower energy future where walking, cycling, electric rail and trolley/battery buses play a far bigger role than the do now, powered by natural renewable energy.

couldnt agree more.

I wish more people shared our view and this country wouldnt be in a mess that it is now.

I agree with nuclear in this country we can use the coast. But we need serious renewable energies or were gonna be in deep trouble.

Didnt know that about france, very interesting.

 

[NXEA!]

Just a few of my ideas: 1) The Uckfield line. 2) The Marshlink. 3). The GOBLIN. 4) The Snow Hill Lines. 5) The Valley Lines. 6) The Chiltern Main Line and the Aylesbury line. 7) The Romsey figure of 6. 8) Basingstoke-Exeter St Davids. By my calculations that is around 220 DMU's released there, which is through the electrification of Diesel Islands, lines where there are a lot of diesels freed up per mile, and main lines that rely solely on DMU's. I think replacing the Pacers through the cascading of stock from electrification schemes should be the priority, not the wiring of main lines such as the MML which have adequate and comfortable stock (I'm not saying that the MML shouldn't be electrified, I think it brings a lot of benefits, but I'd like to see other lines electrified which can bring about the withdrawal of Pacers).

 

[londonmidland]

Wasn't the Midland Mainline going to be electrified to Leicester, but they left it at Bedford because I was told it would of cost too much?!

 

[HST Power]

All main lines should be electrified without delay, and alternatives to copper for power and signalling be deployed as soon as possible.
It cannot be underestimated to serious inflationary pressure that rising food and energy prices are going to create in the next ten years, we need a plan B.

I agree regarding copper.

But not with anything else.

Whilst I realise this is not the thread to have a political debate, I'd just like to point out:

1) Inflation has stabilised. The IMF, who are the experts in the financial field say that whilst the rate may be high now, it's fully on course to recede to the target level.

2) Plan B? As far as this country goes that just isn't an option. The coalitions plans are fully endorsed by the G20, the IMF and the OECD. The unemployment rate has fallen. Benefit claims are down. Companies such as BMW and Nissan have poured £500 million into UK production. The cost of living is a global problem, but as far as this countries goes, if we change course now, we've totally wasted a strong start to economic recovery.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree regarding copper.

But not with anything else.

Whilst I realise this is not the thread to have a political debate, I'd just like to point out:

1) Inflation has stabilised. The IMF, who are the experts in the financial field say that whilst the rate may be high now, it's fully on course to recede to the target level.

2) Plan B? As far as this country goes that just isn't an option. The coalitions plans are fully endorsed by the G20, the IMF and the OECD. The unemployment rate has fallen. Benefit claims are down. Companies such as BMW and Nissan have poured £500 million into UK production. The cost of living is a global problem, but as far as this countries goes, if we change course now, we've totally wasted a strong start to economic recovery.

I think he means plan B in terms fo energy supply?

 

[tbtc]

In short: Are the costs of wiring Middlesborough to Newcastle for one train an hour worth it in the slightest? Not at all

I think I agree with you, but its a difficult one. My logic is as follows:

1. Gateshead - Metro Centre is a no brainer - a couple of miles that would free up the two or three DMUs that run the Morpeth - Newcastle - Metro Centre - Newcastle - Metro Centre - Newcastle - Morpeth diagrams (more if you include peak workings to Chathill etc)
   
2. TPE (by which I mean the main route through Leeds) sounds like a good line to electrify, given the four/hour service and the capacity problems...
   
3. ...but then what do you do about the "branches" to Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough?
   
4. Hull seems to have a good business case as it'd allow electric Leeds - London services to run via Hambleton, it'd allow Hull - London trains to be electric too (swing bridge at Selby notwithstanding)
   
5. Wire to Middlesbrough? Well, its only one train an hour (York - Middlesbrough), but that train would spend a lot of time under the wires from Manchester Airport to Northallerton, so it'd save quite a few DMUs if you wired it.
   
6. If you wire Northallerton - Middlesbrough then the half hourly service from Darlington to Saltburn should have a good business case. Split the Bishop Auckland service off into a shuttle? Whitby stays DMU operated.
   
7. The London - Sunderland service now runs under the wires from Kings Cross to Eaglescliffe. Wiring the 30(something) miles up through Hartlepool to Wearside would free up the HST/180s used by GC.
   
8. So you then end up in a situation where the route from Middlesbrough to the Metro Centre is all under wires, but trains aren't able to use all of the wires (due to the different voltages)

It's tricky, one of the things about electrifying one line is that you improve the case to electrify a neighbouring one. But the voltage problems aren't going to be easy to get round.... my head hurts!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I will take it that my usual response to these threads will be inferred from my Username ...

Hmm, let me think, you want us to wire the West Highland Line?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think I agree with you, but its a difficult one. My logic is as follows:

1. Gateshead - Metro Centre is a no brainer - a couple of miles that would free up the two or three DMUs that run the Morpeth - Newcastle - Metro Centre - Newcastle - Metro Centre - Newcastle - Morpeth diagrams (more if you include peak workings to Chathill etc)
   
2. TPE (by which I mean the main route through Leeds) sounds like a good line to electrify, given the four/hour service and the capacity problems...
   
3. ...but then what do you do about the "branches" to Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough?
   
4. Hull seems to have a good business case as it'd allow electric Leeds - London services to run via Hambleton, it'd allow Hull - London trains to be electric too (swing bridge at Selby notwithstanding)
   
5. Wire to Middlesbrough? Well, its only one train an hour (York - Middlesbrough), but that train would spend a lot of time under the wires from Manchester Airport to Northallerton, so it'd save quite a few DMUs if you wired it.
   
6. If you wire Northallerton - Middlesbrough then the half hourly service from Darlington to Saltburn should have a good business case. Split the Bishop Auckland service off into a shuttle? Whitby stays DMU operated.
   
7. The London - Sunderland service now runs under the wires from Kings Cross to Eaglescliffe. Wiring the 30(something) miles up through Hartlepool to Wearside would free up the HST/180s used by GC.
   
8. So you then end up in a situation where the route from Middlesbrough to the Metro Centre is all under wires, but trains aren't able to use all of the wires (due to the different voltages)

It's tricky, one of the things about electrifying one line is that you improve the case to electrify a neighbouring one. But the voltage problems aren't going to be easy to get round.... my head hurts!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hmm, let me think, you want us to wire the West Highland Line?

wow.... ermm me thinks voyager bi mode to operate middlesbrough manchester airport service. then all your problems go away!

Wire hull. makes perfect sense, you free up DMU's from york to hull too.

Scarbrough as im sure ive mentioned before on various threads make york blackpool non stop to york from leeds and extend that to scarbrough.

 

[Firestarter]

I'd probably extend Thameslink up to Corby as well with potential for further future extension round to Leicester via Melton Mowbray.

Would you have trains going to and from Leicester 24 hrs a day like we do with Bedford-StPancras/ Three Bridges

 

[tbtc]

wow.... ermm me thinkgs voyager bi mode to operate middlesbrough manchester airport service. then all your problems go away!

True

Wire hull. makes perfect sense, you free up DMU's from york to hull too

Good point, I think the Hull line really should be done with TPE north given the different DMUs it would free (plus the Hambleton option which would free up capacity through Wakefield)

Scarbrough as im sure ive mentioned before on various threads make york blackpool non stop to york from leeds and extend that to scarbrough.

Yeah, that would work. The main Scarborough traffic seems to be as far as Leeds/York, I don't think Manchester is as big a destination - I like the idea of the "Seaside Special"!

 

[YorkshireBear]

True



Good point, I think the Hull line really should be done with TPE north given the different DMUs it would free (plus the Hambleton option which would free up capacity through Wakefield)



Yeah, that would work. The main Scarborough traffic seems to be as far as Leeds/York, I don't think Manchester is as big a destination - I like the idea of the "Seaside Special"!

Yeah that does have a good ring to it! Agree about scarbough being to york and its not like changing at leeds would be that much of a haslle with 4 TPE services an hour passing through.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is there an alternative for copper for OHLE? Signalling is done with fibre optics nowadays.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there an alternative for copper for OHLE? Signalling is done with fibre optics nowadays.

You cannot provide power down a piece of fibre optic cable, only data for control. Signals still get their power down a copper (or possibly aluminium) cable. This is why fibre optic is not really a solution to cable theft.

 

[WatcherZero]

If you use optic fibre you no longer need to shield against EM from adjacent copper power cables and replace the aluminium inner sheef and steel tape with a flexible steel outer sheef.

Hows that work out?

 

[OxtedL]

Optic fibre cables DO NOT carry electricity, so are unaffected by EM. They carry light. Total internal reflection etc, if I recall.

Also making them completely useless in carrying power.

 

[WatcherZero]

Cabling usually contains data and power threads shielded from each other with Aluminium. If the data is optic rather than copper you no longer need the aluminium shielding which means you can better protect the copper power threads.

 

[OxtedL]

Right, now we've strung that out in as many different ways as humanly possible , I could perhaps post this little diagram, nicked from the Electrification RUS but with annotations on it, which I put together a while back now...

Perhaps some explanation:
- Dotted lines were "possible".
- It was just a sketch. Don't read anything into it.
- Yes, the remote branch lines in Cornwall have all been electrified. I think this was on the basis that they were either too short to cost that much (cough) or had massive potential for tourism. And it wouldn't make sense not to do them and leave a tiny fleet of DMUs, given that of course you would go all the way to Penzance...
- There is a ton missing in the North.
- I thought Scotland could probably cope without my input, they seem to be doing fine.

Take up your pinches of salt now.

 

[Class172]

Interesting to see the Snow Hill Lines don't feature!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps some explanation:
- Dotted lines were "possible".
- It was just a sketch. Don't read anything into it.
- There is a ton missing in the North

Take up your pinches of salt now.

Well, that's the aspirations of the good residents of the Caldervale Line from Manchester - Rochdale - Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford gone up in a puff of smoke!!

Perhaps they will have to settle for High Speed Barges on the Rochdale Canal to compensate...but I'm not too sure about the tilting mechanism.:roll:

 

[OxtedL]

Aargh. I shouldn't have bothered...

Tell you what, in penance for you all missing out on your salt intake today, I have produced a lovely template (which I believe is flood fill compatible) for you all to tear apart, if you so desire...

For example, a potential one is on the right. Pah.

 

[tbtc]

Right, now we've strung that out in as many different ways as humanly possible , I could perhaps post this little diagram, nicked from the Electrification RUS but with annotations on it, which I put together a while back now...
View attachment 6414
Perhaps some explanation:
- Dotted lines were "possible".
- It was just a sketch. Don't read anything into it.
- Yes, the remote branch lines in Cornwall have all been electrified. I think this was on the basis that they were either too short to cost that much (cough) or had massive potential for tourism. And it wouldn't make sense not to do them and leave a tiny fleet of DMUs, given that of course you would go all the way to Penzance...
- There is a ton missing in the North.
- I thought Scotland could probably cope without my input, they seem to be doing fine.

Take up your pinches of salt now.

Good stuff.

Its a shame there's no easy way of working out rail distances (in the way that I can find the "road" distance from A to B to give an idea of how many miles of track will need wiring, to work it out by rail means counting lots of different routes in Quail/ Track Atlas, given that the distances keep changing ).

PS: Looks like you're planning on electrification for the Oxted line?

 

[OxtedL]

PS: Looks like you're planning on electrification for the Oxted line?

Goodness, it appears so! I wonder how on Earth that slipped in there...!

I draw your attention to: http://www.mileage.railmiles.org/

And to the new chart above. Which I didn't include a disclaimer for, so here we go:
The map above may or may not be accurate. OxtedL can accept no responsibility for any injury or loss of limb incurred as a result of inaccuracies. Necessary modifications should be posted here, or on the "Network Map" thread in my sig, as relevant to subject. Some lines may appear suspicious. Apologies to Kenilworth, for example. Not all lines shown. Not to scale.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Goodness, it appears so! I wonder how on Earth that slipped in there...!

Come on, OxtedL, admit that you have suddenly been granted a new strategic power base within the Coalition of which you have been made "Chief Rail Planner" on account of your uncanny ability to produce "route maps" at the drop of a hat.

Are we going to have celebratory bonfires lit to acknowledge your new appointment on top of Oxted Tunnel and Limpsfield Tunnel?

 

[lancastrian]

This thread has done far better than I thought it might. Many interesting contributions, each of us with our own pet projects. (By the way where is the Oxtail Line?????).

Having had a good read through I have enjoyed the comments and byplay between the regular contributers. As a northerner I have a great desire to see many of the line in the north being electrified, starting with all the Trans-Pennine services, both North & South Trans-Pennine.

Plus of course my old favourites, Oxenholme to Windermere, and Carnforth to Barrow. To be honest, I would really like to see all the lines in Great Britain be electrified, simply because in the long term it will save money for the nation. Perhaps many of the local commuter services could be transfered to Light Rail, in the way that MetroLink has done in Manchester. Without metrolink I am sure that people of Rochdale, Oldham and simliar places will still be travelling in; horror of horrors a 'bug box' to wit a Pacer.

 

[OxtedL]

Come on, OxtedL, admit that you have suddenly been granted a new strategic power base within the Coalition of which you have been made "Chief Rail Planner" on account of your uncanny ability to produce "route maps" at the drop of a hat.

I have been advised that further comment on this issue would be unwise...
Lets just say, expect an announcement on Uckfield Line electrification sometime this week

If anyone does have a particular hankering for filling in maps with pretty colours, then that is what the one above was intended for. Prizes for the most imaginative colour scheme. It would make the whole "which lines should be electrified process that little more memorable, perhaps?

There's nothing quite like spending 30 minutes filling most of the UK train network in with grey to make you realise that we (probably) really need some kind of rolling electrification strategy to keep train travel moving in the future.

 

[Nym]

perhaps many of the local commuter services could be transfered to light rail, in the way that metrolink has done in manchester. Without metrolink i am sure that people of rochdale, oldham and simliar places will still be travelling in; horror of horrors a 'bug box' to wit a pacer.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No more light rail taking over heavy rail as a cheap option, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaassssssseeeee!!!!!!!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Just fancied a post as 00:48 is now 19 years since i was born!

Hate light rail on heavy rail routes, light rail deserves its own route not just cheapo on heavy rail. (maybe meadowhall on tram is okay behind centertainment)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I could perhaps post this little diagram, nicked from the Electrification RUS but with annotations on it, which I put together a while back now...
View attachment 6414

Long gone, indeed, are the days when all you had was some tracing paper, a pencil that had seen better days and your trusty tin of paints with water in a jam pot, to even have had hope of producing such maps.

 

[tbtc]

Just fancied a post as 00:48 is now 19 years since i was born!

Happy birthday
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps many of the local commuter services could be transfered to Light Rail, in the way that MetroLink has done in Manchester. Without metrolink I am sure that people of Rochdale, Oldham and simliar places will still be travelling in; horror of horrors a 'bug box' to wit a Pacer.

If things are bad now for lack of DMUs and capacity on the tracks, imagine if we didn't have the DMUs "spared" from the Oldham loop.