Furness Line overcrowding

[ashworth]

I've just returned from a holiday in Cumbria staying near Ulverston during which I enjoyed a number of day trips out by train. The only thing which spoilt these outings, especially as I was travelling with two elderly relatives, was the the very bad overcrowding on many services between Ulverston and Lancaster. I was very surprised to find this line so busy although it is good to see it being so well used.

The 0922 Barrow to Manchester Airport service was usually standing room only when it left Ulverston, and was uncomfortably overcrowded by the time it reached Arnside and Carnforth although it did improve after Lancaster. At least this was a TPE service using a 3 car Class 185 train.

However, even worse were most of the services operated by Northern which throughout the day were mainly just single 153 units.
The trains that I encountered that were uncomfortably overcrowded were the 1016 and 1416 Barrow to Lancaster services. However, the worst of all was the 1534 from Lancaster to Barrow, which was absolutely full to capaity with standing passengers the length of the train on leaving Lancaster on the two occaions that I used it. Passengers were left behind at both Carnforth, Silverdale and Arnside.

On Monday 30th August (Bank Holiday Monday) I stood all the way from Ulverston to Lancaster on the 1016 Barrow to Lancaster but that was nothing to the sight I was greated with on arrival at Lancaster. Theremust have been at least 200 passengers on the platform, and crowds more walking down the platform unknowingly to join those already waiting to board the 1132 Lancaster to Barrow service. A single 153 unit on really warm sunny Bank Holiday Monday with hundreds of passengers travelling to Cartmel Races! They must have left at least 100 passengers behind although i noticed that the next TPE sevice approx 45 minutes later was making an additional stop at cark and cartmel.
I know the 142's on this route were uncomfortable but surely it is better to get a set on one of those, rather than stand or even worse be left behind by a 153!

Sorry for such a lengthy post but what really annoyed me was this. We were boarding each day at Ulverston, a staffed station and so paid for tickets. Everyone else joining at the intermediate unstaffed stations were travelling for free because the trains were too crowded for the conductor to get through.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sorry for such a lengthy post but what really annoyed me was this. We were boarding each day at Ulverston, a staffed station and so paid for tickets. Everyone else joining at the intermediate unstaffed stations were travelling for free because the trains were too crowded for the conductor to get through.

Those travelling (on TPE) to Bolton, Preston, or Manchester stns will have to pay up there anyway - shame about this not being the case at Lancaster or north thereof. I suppose its just the summer hols - Ulverston for the Southern Lakes and Moirecambe bay & Barrow for the Cumbrian Coast.

 

[Greenback]

Sorry for such a lengthy post but what really annoyed me was this. We were boarding each day at Ulverston, a staffed station and so paid for tickets. Everyone else joining at the intermediate unstaffed stations were travelling for free because the trains were too crowded for the conductor to get through.

I've no doubt that not all of those passengers paid nothing. Some may have had rovers, rangers or season tickets, some will be using return portions, some will have bought tickets in advance on the web, and some will have to pay at least part of the fare later in their journey, particularly if they are also having a day out and intend to return home again!

I hope that makes you feel a bit better!

 

[12CSVT]

If most of the extra passengers were due to Cartmel races why weren't Northern's class 180s running on that line over the bank holiday ?

 

[MCR247]

deleted

 

[voyagerdude220]

Are 180's even cleared over the Barrow-In-Furness line?

Even if they are, does Northern have traincrews who have been trained on them, with the relevant route knowledge of the area concerned?

I get the impression that the 180's are on two set diagrams, with no real margin for altering them around.

 

[First class]

Are 180's even cleared over the Barrow-In-Furness line?

Even if they are, does Northern have traincrews who have been trained on them, with the relevant route knowledge of the area concerned?

I get the impression that the 180's are on two set diagrams, with no real margin for altering them around.

--Not cleared
--No driver knowledge
--No guard knowledge
--No stabling facilities up there for these units

 

[43167]

I would have thought they would be cleared as 175's used to work up there, which apart from the cabs, are basicly the same type of train.

Though crewing & stabling would be a problem.

 

[ashworth]

If most of the extra passengers were due to Cartmel races why weren't Northern's class 180s running on that line over the bank holiday ?

Whilst I agree that the situation was very bad during the Cartmel races weekend, most of the journeys that I made on overcrowded trains were during the week before Cartmel Races.

 

[ukrob]

Welcome to Northern. What you describe (other than leaving 100 people behind due to an event) is an everyday occurrence on many parts of Northern.

 

[PR1Berske]

If most of the extra passengers were due to Cartmel races why weren't Northern's class 180s running on that line over the bank holiday ?

Two words.


Northern.




Rail.

 

[WatcherZero]

Didnt you know? theirs no overcrowding outside London, its a figment of your imagination.

 

[Invincibles]

Presumably for Cartmel they could have sent the 180s out on the normal Blackpool route and so freed up a couple of extra units to strengthen the service along the Barrow line. However, maintanance may well have stopped that and for all I know the 180s might have been running the Blackpool service on Monday because it was a sunny weekend and people would have liked one last trip to the seaside.

 

[WatcherZero]

And it was the weekend the illuminations were turned on by Robbie Williams?

Edit: noticed op was Friday

 

[scrapy]

There was much worse overcrowding at Liverpool Lime St on bank holiday Monday. Some services were strengthened, many were not. Northern (and TPE) simply don't have enough units especially for strengthening when large events/bank holidays happen. Think the only people who don't understand extra carriages are needed are the government.

 

[Lampshade]

Presumably for Cartmel they could have sent the 180s out on the normal Blackpool route and so freed up a couple of extra units to strengthen the service along the Barrow line. However, maintanance may well have stopped that and for all I know the 180s might have been running the Blackpool service on Monday because it was a sunny weekend and people would have liked one last trip to the seaside.

They could have done, but GMPTE don't sponsor the 180s for weekend services and there's no chance of Northern strengthening services out of it's own pocket, God forbid :roll:

Northern's stock isn't used where it's needed anyway, it's used by whichever PTE collars it, hence why there are three car 158s running round West Yorkshire empty while packed 142s bounce around Manchester.

 

[Greenback]

There was much worse overcrowding at Liverpool Lime St on bank holiday Monday. Some services were strengthened, many were not. Northern (and TPE) simply don't have enough units especially for strengthening when large events/bank holidays happen. Think the only people who don't understand extra carriages are needed are the government.

Governments have never been keen on funding additional capacity for just a few days every year. This is why BR had to reduce it's fleet in the early 1980's. Nefore that, in the days of Beeching, many lines and stations were closed thatw ere extremely busy at certain times of the year (ie Summer Saturdays)but very quiet for the rest of the time.

What is annoying at the moment is that many services and routes are desperately in need of additional capacity for long periods of the day and week. It would be very useful to have more capacity as this would undoubtedly help TOC's to deal with evening sporting events and bank holiday trips as well.

 

[1across]

Last Monday (Bank Holiday) due to demand for travel to Cartmel races, the 11:32 northern rail service< a 1 car DMU originating at Lancaster was full to capacity, and approximately 50 people could not board.

Why Could'nt an extra car have been added as overcrowding occurs like this on this day each year.

 

[PhilipW]

Solution to overcrowding problem:

--- Continue with plans to electrify the Liverpool to Manchester line via Chat Moss, with the eastern section from Parkside Junction to Manchester being done first.
--- This will allow the Manchester to Scotland services to be run by EMUs. Yes, I know it will require a new batch of 2+2 seating EMUs to be built but it will be worth it.
--- This in turn will allow the displaced TPE 185s to strengthen other services which will include Barrow - Manchester Airport. Somebody better informed than me can indicate how many 185s will be freed up by this plan, but I think it is a fair number.
--- If the single track Oxenholme to Windeermere branch is also electrified, then even more 185s can be freed up.

This seems a very sensible way to proceed to me to help relieve overcrowding in the North West. Far better than building new DMUs.

Does anyone else agree ?

 

[Greenback]

There are a lot of sensible ideas, but the stumbloing block is that all involve spending money that the government says we haven't got!

 

[ukrob]

What you have described is what has already been announced (bar the branch).

 

[PhilipW]

There are a lot of sensible ideas, but the stumbloing block is that all involve spending money that the government says we haven't got!

If the basic problem is a national shortage of carriages, which I believe it to be, then the only solution has to be to spend some money to increase the capacity.

The debate then becomes what is the best, the most sensible and the most efficient way of doing it. I hope my suggestion fulfills those criteria.

Without additional carriages, the overcowding problem is just unsolvable. I fully realise the constraints the country is in, but also think there are sensible options to follow that spend money with constraint and with common sense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What you have described is what has already been announced (bar the branch).

True, Rob. But we all await the decision of the DfT this autumm as to whether it will proceed.

 

[Greenback]

If the basic problem is a national shortage of carriages, which I believe it to be, then the only solution has to be to spend some money to increase the capacity.

The debate then becomes what is the best, the most sensible and the most efficient way of doing it. I hope my suggestion fulfills those criteria.

Without additional carriages, the overcowding problem is just unsolvable. I fully realise the constraints the country is in, but also think there are sensible options to follow that spend money with constraint and with common sense

I agree. My comment was merely to illustrate that we need a centrally funded build of additional units to alleviate the problems found all over the country, but that it is unlikely to happen with the current government.

I am not at all certain that the finances of the country are as bad as we keep being told. The fact that the UK has a large deficit provides a handy excuse for the Condems to slash spending, as the Cons have always liked to do anyway, preferring as they do minimal state interference on ideological grounds.

Personally, I believe that there is still much investment that can still be made on economic grounds, and additional rolling stock is one of those.

 

[tbtc]

There's always something happening at the weekend in Northern Rail territory, whether it's football/ rugby legue, a concert, the Tall Ships at Hartlepool, York/ Doncaster Races, seaside events... it'd be impossible to tailor demand for each thing.

One sunny Sunday the Pacer to Edale has to turn away ramblers (with their massive rucksacks/ bikes), the next Sunday its raining and the additional capacity would be wasted.

I am not at all certain that the finances of the country are as bad as we keep being told. The fact that the UK has a large deficit provides a handy excuse for the Condems to slash spending, as the Cons have always liked to do anyway, preferring as they do minimal state interference on ideological grounds.

Personally, I believe that there is still much investment that can still be made on economic grounds, and additional rolling stock is one of those.

I agree that things aren't as bad as they sound. In a recession (and during the first periods of post-recession growth), the Government will be paying out more in benefits to the unemployed and receiving less in tax from those in work. This happens every time. Every Government in the world plans around these "swings" in finances to stabalise the economy. A lot of people are using the current economic climate to make a lot of long-term decisions (which they couldn't justify if the economy weren't coming out of recession).

 

[daccer]

there are two ways to cope with overcrowding ; fund more carriages or repress demand through higher pricing - have a guess which route we are heading down!