Furloughed / Self Employed Workers Discussion

[Bletchleyite]

I have heard it said that the original reason for the 6 week school summer holiday was to allow children to help with the harvest.

I believe that is correct.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Am I the only one who had to look up the word "furlough"?

I also had no idea what is was (nor even how to pronounce it!), even though I've worked in retail for seven years!

Well I'm with Costa and we were doing takeaway only up until last Monday, then when I was in work on that Monday morning I had a call from my area manager to say all stores would be closing at 5pm for the foreseeable (with the exception of service stations and hospitals). We were told that we would get 80% of our pay from the government, but would still be expected to 'work' from home, by means of completing any courses from home such as any food and safety courses, supervisor sign offs etc. As a signed off supervisor, I only had the one to do, which I was in the middle of doing (and have since completed) anyway before this outbreak.

My store manager then posted on our Facebook group to state about this furlough business. This meant that we were/are not expected to work or do any online training. When Costa decides to reopen we can be given as short a time as 24 hours but we cannot take another job i.e. Tesco's that's up for grabs at the moment. We do not use any holiday allowance, we still accrue pension payments and still accrue holiday. When we come back to work we will go back to our original contracts with terms and conditions. This applies to 13th May.

If we didn't agree with this (it was entirely our choice of course) we would still be required to do offsite training and would have probably lost holiday allowance and probably a portion of our holidays already.

So in short, it was the better option. It essentially is almost like a temporary redundancy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also had no idea what is was (nor even how to pronounce it!), even though I've worked in retail for seven years!

It's not something you can legally do in the UK in normal circumstances other than by way of zero hours or short term contracts where you know up front it can happen. It's common in the US where you have "work at will", i.e. you can fire or quit for any or no reason without significant notice.

 

[Cowley]

I also had no idea what is was (nor even how to pronounce it!), even though I've worked in retail for seven years!

Well I'm with Costa and we were doing takeaway only up until last Monday, then when I was in work on that Monday morning I had a call from my area manager to say all stores would be closing at 5pm for the foreseeable (with the exception of service stations and hospitals). We were told that we would get 80% of our pay from the government, but would still be expected to 'work' from home, by means of completing any courses from home such as any food and safety courses, supervisor sign offs etc. As a signed off supervisor, I only had the one to do, which I was in the middle of doing (and have since completed) anyway before this outbreak.

My store manager then posted on our Facebook group to state about this furlough business. This meant that we were/are not expected to work or do any online training. When Costa decides to reopen we can be given as short a time as 24 hours but we cannot take another job i.e. Tesco's that's up for grabs at the moment. We do not use any holiday allowance, we still accrue pension payments and still accrue holiday. When we come back to work we will go back to our original contracts with terms and conditions. This applies to 13th May.

If we didn't agree with this (it was entirely our choice of course) we would still be required to do offsite training and would have probably lost holiday allowance and probably a portion of our holidays already.

So in short, it was the better option. It essentially is almost like a temporary redundancy.

One of our girls has a part time job with Costa and they seem to have treated their staff pretty well through this so far.

 

[ValleyLines142]

One of our girls has a part time job with Costa and they seem to have treated their staff pretty well through this so far.

To be fair, I've had exactly the same thoughts.

Usually, Costa can be a little bit behind when it comes to many crisis-like situations such as this, and sometimes have a tendency to not give a toss about the staff/take them for granted. Starbucks and one of the other competitors (can't remember which one) closed on Friday (20th), whereas Costa stayed open until the Monday (23rd), but I think they were just trying to explore whether it was viable to keep franchises in the hospitals open or not. Costa went through a phase two years ago where staff turnover was higher than it had ever been and head office were making some pretty poor decisions on many topics, but I agree I think they have dealt with this fantastically and have remained calm, concise and in clear communication with ALL employees (not just higher management/store managers).

 

[bussnapperwm]

My brother works for whitbread in one of their restaurants and was told they were closing literally the day before...but he was still required to go in on the Monday as part of a clean up crew.

He did bring back a load of food though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, I've had exactly the same thoughts.

Usually, Costa can be a little bit behind when it comes to many crisis-like situations such as this, and sometimes have a tendency to not give a toss about the staff/take them for granted. Starbucks and one of the other competitors (can't remember which one) closed on Friday (20th), whereas Costa stayed open until the Monday (23rd), but I think they were just trying to explore whether it was viable to keep franchises in the hospitals open or not. Costa went through a phase two years ago where staff turnover was higher than it had ever been and head office were making some pretty poor decisions on many topics, but I agree I think they have dealt with this fantastically and have remained calm, concise and in clear communication with ALL employees (not just higher management/store managers).

It's a bit easier for Starbucks as they own most of their stores, whereas Costa are often franchises.

 

[ValleyLines142]

It's a bit easier for Starbucks as they own most of their stores, whereas Costa are often franchises.

It's about 50/50 to be fair.

 

[High Dyke]

When I was in he Army in the 50s a Furlough was Leave.

Indeed it was. The word furlough originally referred to “a leave of absence given to soldiers.” It was borrowed from the Dutch verlof, which is related to the English word leave.

I'm in that dilemma at the moment regarding the staff of our Railway Club (Ex BRSA). We've been advised that HMRC won't have their system up and running until the end of April, and can't submit a claim until the online system is in operation, though claims can be backdated. So where does that leave the employer when there's no income to the business and the staff still want paying? The advice from Government is to stick with your workers and not make them redundant, if possible. However, many small business are already suffering financially without having to wait HMRC to catch up. Our local council has identified that we are entitled to the business grant, as outlined by government, but it could be another couple of weeks before any tangible money is in the bank account.

BRSA: British Rail Staff Association

 

[Dai Corner]

Indeed it was. The word furlough originally referred to “a leave of absence given to soldiers.” It was borrowed from the Dutch verlof, which is related to the English word leave.

I'm in that dilemma at the moment regarding the staff of our Railway Club (Ex BRSA). We've been advised that HMRC won't have their system up and running until the end of April, and can't submit a claim until the online system is in operation, though claims can be backdated. So where does that leave the employer when there's no income to the business and the staff still want paying? The advice from Government is to stick with your workers and not make them redundant, if possible. However, many small business are already suffering financially without having to wait HMRC to catch up. Our local council has identified that we are entitled to the business grant, as outlined by government, but it could be another couple of weeks before any tangible money is in the bank account.

BRSA: British Rail Staff Association

Can you take a Business Interruption Loan, using the future payment as security?

 

[High Dyke]

Can you take a Business Interruption Loan, using the future payment as security?

We were hoping we could, but the bank have refused it. Then again we were already using the overdraft facility the club had prior to all of this.

 

[thejuggler]

Our Local Council update email says they sent first payments of grants today (£20m worth, 2000+ payments) so it may not take as long as a couple of weeks.

 

[Butts]

To be fair, I've had exactly the same thoughts.

Usually, Costa can be a little bit behind when it comes to many crisis-like situations such as this, and sometimes have a tendency to not give a toss about the staff/take them for granted. Starbucks and one of the other competitors (can't remember which one) closed on Friday (20th), whereas Costa stayed open until the Monday (23rd), but I think they were just trying to explore whether it was viable to keep franchises in the hospitals open or not. Costa went through a phase two years ago where staff turnover was higher than it had ever been and head office were making some pretty poor decisions on many topics, but I agree I think they have dealt with this fantastically and have remained calm, concise and in clear communication with ALL employees (not just higher management/store managers).

Is this thanks to it being owned by Coca Cola now ? - how have things changed since Whitbread sold it ?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Is this thanks to it being owned by Coca Cola now ? - how have things changed since Whitbread sold it ?

There does seem to be much clearer direction to be honest.

 

[Iskra]

I also had no idea what is was (nor even how to pronounce it!), even though I've worked in retail for seven years!

Well I'm with Costa and we were doing takeaway only up until last Monday, then when I was in work on that Monday morning I had a call from my area manager to say all stores would be closing at 5pm for the foreseeable (with the exception of service stations and hospitals). We were told that we would get 80% of our pay from the government, but would still be expected to 'work' from home, by means of completing any courses from home such as any food and safety courses, supervisor sign offs etc. As a signed off supervisor, I only had the one to do, which I was in the middle of doing (and have since completed) anyway before this outbreak.

My store manager then posted on our Facebook group to state about this furlough business. This meant that we were/are not expected to work or do any online training. When Costa decides to reopen we can be given as short a time as 24 hours but we cannot take another job i.e. Tesco's that's up for grabs at the moment. We do not use any holiday allowance, we still accrue pension payments and still accrue holiday. When we come back to work we will go back to our original contracts with terms and conditions. This applies to 13th May.

If we didn't agree with this (it was entirely our choice of course) we would still be required to do offsite training and would have probably lost holiday allowance and probably a portion of our holidays already.

So in short, it was the better option. It essentially is almost like a temporary redundancy.

Costa's initial intention was to pay 100% of wages without any furlough arrangement or government support as none had been offered at that point, hence why you could be asked to complete work at home. At that time that was an extremely generous arrangement, not matched by any similar employer. Costa only changed to furlough when it realised it could claim back the 80%from the government by doing this. Discussions with the government from high level HR and a legal team were held, the government tried to go back on its word saying that as Costa had already offered 100% pay, they didn't need the 80% from the government. Eventually agreement was reached and hopefully the money saved means Costa can now continue to pay its staff for longer should this drag on. This explains the confusing and conflicting initial information as the situation was fluid.

It was a no-brainer to choose furlough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other thing the furlough did was encouraged non-essential businesses to close. Without it I'd expect that McDonald's would have stayed open, for instance.

To whoever said it's temporary redundancy, yes, it basically is. Common in the UK but the UK's normal employment law doesn't really allow for it.

 

[Iskra]

One of our girls has a part time job with Costa and they seem to have treated their staff pretty well through this so far.

Costa provides industry leading pay, holiday and benefits, which isn't always appreciated by a lot of its staff. It's hard work, but you get paid well for that. It's generally a good place to work. Where it can fall down though, is if you get a bad manager, it can ruin things for a lot of people very quickly.

To be fair, I've had exactly the same thoughts.

Usually, Costa can be a little bit behind when it comes to many crisis-like situations such as this, and sometimes have a tendency to not give a toss about the staff/take them for granted. Starbucks and one of the other competitors (can't remember which one) closed on Friday (20th), whereas Costa stayed open until the Monday (23rd), but I think they were just trying to explore whether it was viable to keep franchises in the hospitals open or not. Costa went through a phase two years ago where staff turnover was higher than it had ever been and head office were making some pretty poor decisions on many topics, but I agree I think they have dealt with this fantastically and have remained calm, concise and in clear communication with ALL employees (not just higher management/store managers).

That really disappoints me. If you genuinely feel that way, it probably says more about your line manager, or area manager than it does the company. However, posting that on the internet is not the most sensible thing to do. If I can assist you with anything please feel free to PM me.

Costa stayed open longer to run stock down, create an effective shut down policy, get all cash collections done so there is no cash now sat in stores, and negotiate with the government about the pay situation. Some stores are in locations that can't be easily closed and secured unless the full building is closed, they don't all have shutters and front doors that you can just lock and walk away. I also believe the government wanted a gradual close down of non-essential business, to avoid panic.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Costa provides industry leading pay, holiday and benefits, which isn't always appreciated by a lot of its staff. It's hard work, but you get paid well for that. It's generally a good place to work. Where it can fall down though, is if you get a bad manager, it can ruin things for a lot of people very quickly.

That really disappoints me. If you genuinely feel that way, it probably says more about your line manager, or area manager than it does the company. However, posting that on the internet is not the most sensible thing to do. If I can assist you with anything please feel free to PM me.

Thank you for reaching out to me but I'm all good thank you

To be fair, it is usually down to the store manager, but I'm not in that position at the moment. Not all of them are big, bad and evil, but a few let the power get to their head a little, shall we say?

I've been with the company for nearly seven years, having briefly left for nine months to work in Starbucks however when I had a confirmed offer to do my Masters part time they couldn't accommodate my availability, so I had no choice but to go back to Costa. Thankfully my current manager is very supportive and one of the best I've had in a long time; I knew for her ages beforehand so I wasn't remotely worried about returning.

I have eight managers in the past and three of them have been corrupt as hell, thankfully the rest of them were great. Furthermore, I'm one of the ones that will happily confront them (where appropriate) if something is amiss; sadly many other baristas (especially the younger part-time ones) won't do anything if something happens that shouldn't and their too scared to speak up. It's a shame.

I'm not worried about putting anything on here because I'm anom and nobody knows which Costa I work, also I haven't degraded the company but have merely spoken the truth

Costa stayed open longer to run stock down, create an effective shut down policy, get all cash collections done so there is no cash now sat in stores, and negotiate with the government about the pay situation. Some stores are in locations that can't be easily closed and secured unless the full building is closed, they don't all have shutters and front doors that you can just lock and walk away. I also believe the government wanted a gradual close down of non-essential business, to avoid panic.

Agreed. We had quite a lot of things to sort out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the issue with this sort of industry is similar to that of retail (and chain pubs) - typically managers and staff are poorly paid, and that often means quite junior, inexperienced management and therefore that management being of rather varying quality.

 

[Iskra]

Thank you for reaching out to me but I'm all good thank you

To be fair, it is usually down to the store manager, but I'm not in that position at the moment. Not all of them are big, bad and evil, but a few let the power get to their head a little, shall we say?

I've been with the company for nearly seven years, having briefly left for nine months to work in Starbucks however when I had a confirmed offer to do my Masters part time they couldn't accommodate my availability, so I had no choice but to go back to Costa. Thankfully my current manager is very supportive and one of the best I've had in a long time; I knew for her ages beforehand so I wasn't remotely worried about returning.

I have eight managers in the past and three of them have been corrupt as hell, thankfully the rest of them were great. Furthermore, I'm one of the ones that will happily confront them (where appropriate) if something is amiss; sadly many other baristas (especially the younger part-time ones) won't do anything if something happens that shouldn't and their too scared to speak up. It's a shame.

I'm not worried about putting anything on here because I'm anom and nobody knows which Costa I work, also I haven't degraded the company but have merely spoken the truth



Agreed. We had quite a lot of things to sort out.

I am glad things are better than they have been for you. There is a confidential reporting hotline for reporting behaviour that isn't right, and it does get taken seriously, so feel free to use it if you need in the future.

I would just advise caution as the 'Costa doesn't care' narrative is not particularly popular with those at the top of the company after they just went and asked Coca Cola to sign off x million to pay the staff full pay for 8 weeks, before the government committed to doing anything. Equally, the internet is nowhere near as anonymous as you might think, so I would just be careful with how much personal information you put into the public domain.

 

[Iskra]

I think the issue with this sort of industry is similar to that of retail (and chain pubs) - typically managers and staff are poorly paid, and that often means quite junior, inexperienced management and therefore that management being of rather varying quality.

Costa managers aren't particularly badly paid and do very well in terms of holidays and other benefits, a good manager can also do very well out of the bonus scheme too. They also have relatively little oversight so working arrangements can be flexible and they are basically their own boss and few questions are asked providing things to appear to be going well- that can be however, both a positive and a negative.

Costa's problem is that it has expanded at a faster rate than what it's talent pipeline could deliver in terms of quality, experienced managers, so some people have ended up getting positions they shouldn't have (or weren't ready for) due to lack of alternative options.

The other is once a store gets a bad reputation within the company, not many people are willing to go there to fix it, particularly if they have crafted a nice easy life in the store they are in.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I am glad things are better than they have been for you. There is a confidential reporting hotline for reporting behaviour that isn't right, and it does get taken seriously, so feel free to use it if you need in the future.

I have the number on my phone. Not that I've ever had to use it.

I would just advise caution as the 'Costa doesn't care' narrative is not particularly popular with those at the top of the company after they just went and asked Coca Cola to sign off x million to pay the staff full pay for 8 weeks, before the government committed to doing anything. Equally, the internet is nowhere near as anonymous as you might think, so I would just be careful with how much personal information you put into the public domain.

No personal information is being shared. I've merely stated a fact which is probably public knowledge anyway

 

[Iskra]

I have the number on my phone. Not that I've ever had to use it.



No personal information is being shared. I've merely stated a fact which is probably public knowledge anyway

I mean your own personal information

 

[ValleyLines142]

I mean your own personal information

Oh well I'd never share that anyway

 

[Taunton]

Furlough is a term more commonly used in the USA where employees are laid off without pay but still retain their employed status and their "benefits". These are key to many in the USA as it means the company medical plan is still in place for them - something that many in the USA are so concerned about that they would rather lose their pay than their medical coverage.

The current UK arrangement is that the government will reimburse 80% of pay up to £2.5k per month. The employer will need to keep records of what they have paid out and then claim this back, details not nailed down yet but likely as an offset to when they pay their income tax and VAT over to the taxman. The details issued to companies seem (to us doing this) a lot clearer than those issued to employees, they are here (see link) as the "Coronavirus job retention scheme". Although the reclaiming may take a while to sort out, for employees things have already started from 1 March.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...bout-covid-19/covid-19-support-for-businesses

If your rmployer is so short of cash that they can't even fund this while waiting for the repayment, there is the separate Business Interruption Loan also described in that section. But normally the outstanding PAYE, NI and VAT to be paid over for recent months ought to cover this while things are getting going - I know people here sometimes like to portray these things have not been thought through, but they have, more than sometimes is given credit for. I know that won't stop some whinging though.

Yes, you will pay any applicable tax/NI on furlough pay. And you must do no work, not even answer a customer email, while on furlough, for your furlough-paying employer. However, you could have a separate second job and that is unaffected; many people have multiple jobs anyway.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Furlough is a term more commonly used in the USA where employees are laid off without pay but still retain their employed status and their "benefits". These are key to many in the USA as it means the company medical plan is still in place for them - something that many in the USA are so concerned about that they would rather lose their pay than their medical coverage.

The current UK arrangement is that the government will reimburse 80% of pay up to £2.5k per month. The employer will need to keep records of what they have paid out and then claim this back, details not nailed down yet but likely as an offset to when they pay their income tax and VAT over to the taxman. The details issued to companies seem (to us doing this) a lot clearer than those issued to employees, they are here (see link) as the "Coronavirus job retention scheme". Although the reclaiming may take a while to sort out, for employees things have already started from 1 March.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...bout-covid-19/covid-19-support-for-businesses

If your rmployer is so short of cash that they can't even fund this while waiting for the repayment, there is the separate Business Interruption Loan also described in that section. But normally the outstanding PAYE, NI and VAT to be paid over for recent months ought to cover this while things are getting going - I know people here sometimes like to portray these things have not been thought through, but they have, more than sometimes is given credit for. I know that won't stop some whinging though.

Yes, you will pay any applicable tax/NI on furlough pay. And you must do no work, not even answer a customer email, while on furlough, for your furlough-paying employer. However, you could have a separate second job and that is unaffected; many people have multiple jobs anyway.

You can undertake training, or even volunteer, with your employer whilst in furlough, but you must not provide them with a service or generate any income for them.
Seems a bit pointless then really!

 

[Bantamzen]

Furlough is a term more commonly used in the USA where employees are laid off without pay but still retain their employed status and their "benefits". These are key to many in the USA as it means the company medical plan is still in place for them - something that many in the USA are so concerned about that they would rather lose their pay than their medical coverage.

The current UK arrangement is that the government will reimburse 80% of pay up to £2.5k per month. The employer will need to keep records of what they have paid out and then claim this back, details not nailed down yet but likely as an offset to when they pay their income tax and VAT over to the taxman. The details issued to companies seem (to us doing this) a lot clearer than those issued to employees, they are here (see link) as the "Coronavirus job retention scheme". Although the reclaiming may take a while to sort out, for employees things have already started from 1 March.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...bout-covid-19/covid-19-support-for-businesses

If your rmployer is so short of cash that they can't even fund this while waiting for the repayment, there is the separate Business Interruption Loan also described in that section. But normally the outstanding PAYE, NI and VAT to be paid over for recent months ought to cover this while things are getting going - I know people here sometimes like to portray these things have not been thought through, but they have, more than sometimes is given credit for. I know that won't stop some whinging though.

Yes, you will pay any applicable tax/NI on furlough pay. And you must do no work, not even answer a customer email, while on furlough, for your furlough-paying employer. However, you could have a separate second job and that is unaffected; many people have multiple jobs anyway.

Its just worth pointing out the business interruption loans are not guaranteed, and are at the discretion of the lenders. And there are already a lot of businesses reporting that they can't get them, so I would challenge your view that things have been thought through (I do have other reasons for holding this view, although I am not yet in a position to explain why).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its just worth pointing out the business interruption loans are not guaranteed, and are at the discretion of the lenders. And there are already a lot of businesses reporting that they can't get them, so I would challenge your view that things have been thought through (I do have other reasons for holding this view, although I am not in a position yet to explain why).

I think to be fair there has been very little time for thinking things through!

 

[Bantamzen]

I think to be fair there has been very little time for thinking things through!

There has been over 3 months.

 

[theageofthetra]

You can undertake training, or even volunteer, with your employer whilst in furlough, but you must not provide them with a service or generate any income for them.
Seems a bit pointless then really!

What is stop a business that hasn't been particularly affected by this crisis (or would normally see a seasonal downturn this time of year ) furloughing their staff to get the taxpayer to pick up the wage bill whilst they still do work for them?

Can you work elsewhere whilst receiving furlough payment?