Full brake vans

[hexagon789]

I'm not sure that Mk2 or Mk3 full brakes were ever needed with Mk1 BGs being available and the need for lots of luggage space dying out from the days of loading all the trunks in the guard's van.

I think the Mk3b DVTs rather filled-in for any potential need for a Mk3 full-brake when the Mk1 BGs were no longer required. If BR did ever construct such things presumably they would've looked like this:



The 442 Wessex Electric motor cars are supposedly based off those in some respects IIRC.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not sure that Mk2 or Mk3 full brakes were ever needed with Mk1 BGs being available and the need for lots of luggage space dying out from the days of loading all the trunks in the guard's van.

I think the Mk3b DVTs rather filled-in for any potential need for a Mk3 full-brake when the Mk1 BGs were no longer required. If BR did ever construct such things presumably they would've looked like this:

I guess in the financial environment of the time BR couldn't get funding to provide smoother and more comfortable accommodation for guards and parcels, or knew it wasn't worth trying to ask.

It's also worth remembering that new Mk2 and Mk3 sets still had Mk1 catering vehicles, as no Mk2 buffets were built new and the Mk3a (loco-hauled) buffets were several years after the seated coaches. WCML Mk2 and Mk3 sets received these but other routes didn't and London-Norwich was running Mk1 buffets in Mk2 sets well into the 1990s. Probably buffet staff were assumed to be no more deserving than guards, and passengers were expected not to spend long there!

 

[Ken H]

I'm not sure that Mk2 or Mk3 full brakes were ever needed with Mk1 BGs being available and the need for lots of luggage space dying out from the days of loading all the trunks in the guard's van.

I think the Mk3b DVTs rather filled-in for any potential need for a Mk3 full-brake when the Mk1 BGs were no longer required. If BR did ever construct such things presumably they would've looked like this:

View attachment 61649

The 442 Wessex Electric motor cars are supposedly based off those in some respects IIRC.

the BG's were used for mail and parcels traffic as well as passenger luggage.

 

[hexagon789]

I guess in the financial environment of the time BR couldn't get funding to provide smoother and more comfortable accommodation for guards and parcels, or knew it wasn't worth trying to ask.

It's also worth remembering that new Mk2 and Mk3 sets still had Mk1 catering vehicles, as no Mk2 buffets were built new and the Mk3a (loco-hauled) buffets were several years after the seated coaches. WCML Mk2 and Mk3 sets received these but other routes didn't and London-Norwich was running Mk1 buffets in Mk2 sets well into the 1990s. Probably buffet staff were assumed to be no more deserving than guards, and passengers were expected not to spend long there!

I think also that the bulk of the Mk1 catering fleet was newer than the seating vehicles. Presumably when the first lot of Mk2s were introduced BR considered it more cost effective to upgrade the vehicles passengers would spend most of their journeys in but not what were at the time fairly new restaurant and kitchen cars.

the BG's were used for mail and parcels traffic as well as passenger luggage.

Indeed, but I don't think that was intense as it once was or did that traffic only really die off under privitisation?

 

[Ken H]

I think also that the bulk of the Mk1 catering fleet was newer than the seating vehicles. Presumably when the first lot of Mk2s were introduced BR considered it more cost effective to upgrade the vehicles passengers would spend most of their journeys in but not what were at the time fairly new restaurant and kitchen cars.

Didnt they try and get all the catering cars on Commonwealth bogies?

Wiki has a bit about Commonwealth bogies at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogie#Commonwealth_bogie

The Commonwealth bogie was manufactured by the English Steel Corporation under licence from the Commonwealth Steel Company in Illinois, United States. Fitted with SKF or Timken bearings, it was introduced in the late 1950s for all BR Mark 1 vehicles. It was a heavy, cast-steel design weighing about 6.5 long tons (6.6 t),[7] with sealed roller bearings on the axle ends, avoiding the need to maintain axle box oil levels.

The leaf springs were replaced by coil springs (one per wheel) running vertically rather than horizontally. The advanced design gave a better ride quality than the BR1, being rated for 100 mph (160 km/h).

The side frame of the bogie was usually of bar construction, with simple horn guides attached, allowing the axle boxes vertical movements between them. The axle boxes had a cast-steel equaliser beam or bar resting on them. The bar had two steel coil springs placed on it and the bogie frame rested on the springs. The effect was to allow the bar to act as a compensating lever between the two axles and to use both springs to soften shocks from either axle. The bogie had a conventional bolster suspension with swing links carrying a spring plank.

 

[hexagon789]

Didnt they try and get all the catering cars on Commonwealth bogies?

Many were built with them from new. The older ones gained either B5 or for some vehicles a B4 at the seating end and a B5 under the kitchen.

These both allowed 100mph without the need for heavy maintenance, the older BR standard (often referred to as BR1 and BR2) needed frequent maintenance. They rode alright normally but were subject to severe hunting when the wheel tread wore and so for 100mph running they needed specialised maintenance to keep an acceptable ride.

The Western Region had BR1-bogied Mk1 BG full brakes maintained for 100mph running certainly in the late 1970s and possibly into the '80s.

 

[43096]

I guess in the financial environment of the time BR couldn't get funding to provide smoother and more comfortable accommodation for guards and parcels, or knew it wasn't worth trying to ask.

It's also worth remembering that new Mk2 and Mk3 sets still had Mk1 catering vehicles, as no Mk2 buffets were built new and the Mk3a (loco-hauled) buffets were several years after the seated coaches. WCML Mk2 and Mk3 sets received these but other routes didn't and London-Norwich was running Mk1 buffets in Mk2 sets well into the 1990s. Probably buffet staff were assumed to be no more deserving than guards, and passengers were expected not to spend long there!

There was a batch of 28 Mark 3 RUBs built in 1977/78, so that statement is not wholly correct. There weren’t enough for every set until the RFM conversions ten years later.

 

[SeanG]

London-Norwich was running Mk1 buffets in Mk2 sets well into the 1990s.

I believe some Mk1 buffets lasted into the 2000s and at least one got one livery - although |I have yet to see any photographs of that

 

[edwin_m]

There was a batch of 28 Mark 3 RUBs built in 1977/78, so that statement is not wholly correct. There weren’t enough for every set until the RFM conversions ten years later.

The seated Mk3a were built from 1975. I remember being surprised to see Mk3s at Manchester Piccadilly on my way to London for my uncle to take me for my first ride on the new HSTs from Paddington!

 

[43096]

The seated Mk3a were built from 1975. I remember being surprised to see Mk3s at Manchester Piccadilly on my way to London for my uncle to take me for my first ride on the new HSTs from Paddington!

Yes..... but we’re talking catering vehicles, which were built after the 3A FOs and TSOs.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes..... but we’re talking catering vehicles, which were built after the 3A FOs and TSOs.

That was my point! The FOs and TSOs had to run with Mk1 catering for some years until the Mk3 catering vehicles were built.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe some Mk1 buffets lasted into the 2000s and at least one got one livery - although |I have yet to see any photographs of that

I think the last one ended mainline service in 1999, a Great Western vehicle IIRC. I've seen a photo somewhere.

The seated Mk3a were built from 1975. I remember being surprised to see Mk3s at Manchester Piccadilly on my way to London for my uncle to take me for my first ride on the new HSTs from Paddington!

The loco-hauled Mk3 entered passenger service before the HST ones. Two sets on Euston-Manchester/Liverpool diagrams.

 

[43096]

That was my point! The FOs and TSOs had to run with Mk1 catering for some years until the Mk3 catering vehicles were built.

About 2 or 3 years for some sets.

 

[Ken H]

some detail here. its a blog so cant really quote
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92463-loco-hauled-mk3-restaurantbuffet-coaches/

we must remember the BR modular catering project, taking food prep etc off trains and delivering stock to the catering car in containers like we still see today used by trolled dollies on aeroplanes. did the coaches change 3 letter type for that?

 

[delt1c]

Last Mk 1 RMB was with anglia circa 2000 and was usualy used on 18.00 departure from Liverpool St. Remember going to see its final trip[

 

[delt1c]

I believe the last use a BG in revenue earning service was with the Caledonian Sleepers.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe the last use a BG in revenue earning service was with the Caledonian Sleepers.

I know they had one as a cover for the BuOs as late as 2004 possibly later. Not sure when it was actually last used though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The use of full brake vans is something often forgotten when comparing the 1980s with today. For example Trans-pennine loco hauled sets were generally load 6 or 7 but this included a full brake. By contrast the Mk5a sets will be load 5 but with only a small section at each end that isn't passenger accommodation (apart from the loco obviously).

 

[hexagon789]

The use of full brake vans is something often forgotten when comparing the 1980s with today. For example Trans-pennine loco hauled sets were generally load 6 or 7 but this included a full brake. By contrast the Mk5a sets will be load 5 but with only a small section at each end that isn't passenger accommodation (apart from the loco obviously).

For the first year of BR ScotRail extending push-pull operation to all Glasgow-Aberdeen services in May 1985 the sets all contained a Mk1 BG between loco and coaches, they were all removed by May 1986.

I still don't know why they had them to start with.

 

[edwin_m]

I still don't know why they had them to start with.

Perhaps something to do with brake force on the descent into Queen Street, given that the coaches used on the Aberdeens often weren't disc braked?

 

[hexagon789]

Perhaps something to do with brake force on the descent into Queen Street, given that the coaches used on the Aberdeens often weren't disc braked?

My thoughts were they simply decided the van space in the DBSO was sufficient.

 

[dubscottie]

For the first year of BR ScotRail extending push-pull operation to all Glasgow-Aberdeen services in May 1985 the sets all contained a Mk1 BG between loco and coaches, they were all removed by May 1986.

I still don't know why they had them to start with.

Red Star parcels. There was a lot of oversize items to do with the oil industry going to/from Aberdeen.

The Edinburgh- Aberdeen trains frequently had them also. I know from my childhood that there were tons of big items from Rosyth Dockyard that were sent Red Star from Inverkeithing. It was comedy gold sometimes watching them trying to get long items in a BSO!

 

[hexagon789]

Red Star parcels. There was a lot of oversize items to do with the oil industry going to/from Aberdeen.

The Edinburgh- Aberdeen trains frequently had them also. I know from my childhood that there were tons of big items from Rosyth Dockyard that were sent Red Star from Inverkeithing. It was comedy gold sometimes watching them trying to get long items in a BSO!

That explains it then. Strange it lasted only a year though.

 

[dubscottie]

That explains it then. Strange it lasted only a year though.

I think it was sectorisation that put an end to it. Parcels started to run there own van trains between Aberdeen & Edinburgh during the day about the same time.

 

[hexagon789]

I think it was sectorisation that put an end to it. Parcels started to run there own van trains between Aberdeen & Edinburgh during the day about the same time.

So simply they became redundant from those specific trains instead being put into specialised trains for the traffic. Though if I remember correctly the 5 ScotRail liveried BGs all ended up in England very soon after they were no longer required in Aberdeen push-pull sets.

 

[dubscottie]

They ended up with IC. In 1990, 3 were at NC, 1 at LA and one became a HST barrier coach. They had public address equipment and some also had driver-guard communication so were kept in passenger trains where needed instead of parcels trains.

 

[keith1879]

It seems to me that one basic reason why full brakes were not constructed with Mark 2 or 3 stock was that there was no point in air conditioning a parcels space. There were enough Mark 1 BGs for the traffic and so long as they could be made to run at 100 mph and stop safely they could continue in service.