Fukushima

[TOCDriver]

I don't know about you lot, but from what I have been reading about what is going on at these 4 crippled nuclear reactors in Japan, I really do fear for Japan and indeed, most of the Northern Hemisphere. There are quite a few nuclear scientists who are bricking themselves over the latest evidence that 3 of these reactors have completely melted down and are well on their way to causing a 'China Syndrome' If so, you can say goodbye to Japan and most of the pacific region too. There is currently a media blackout from Japan and nobody is saying anything. Very, very scary

 

[ainsworth74]

Can we have some links?

 

[carriageline]

On another forum I was reading links and quotes someone posted from ANOTHER forum from someone that was high up in the US military, and how things really are not that dandy over there. With radioactive fish being found in places, and that radioactive water is being pumped into the sea.

Happy days

 

[DarloRich]

I don't know about you lot, but from what I have been reading about what is going on at these 4 crippled nuclear reactors in Japan, I really do fear for Japan and indeed, most of the Northern Hemisphere. There are quite a few nuclear scientists who are bricking themselves over the latest evidence that 3 of these reactors have completely melted down and are well on their way to causing a 'China Syndrome' If so, you can say goodbye to Japan and most of the pacific region too. There is currently a media blackout from Japan and nobody is saying anything. Very, very scary

I had a physics teacher who was very good and explaining these issues!

The china syndrome is a loss of coolant accident in that the core melts and then burns through the reactor vessel - if i recall correctly the issue is how far into the earth the molten "slag" (cant recall the correct term) "burns" it is thought it should stop after a couple of meters or when the slag temperature falls below a certain point. should stop.

Either way Japan wont be a place to visit for a while!

 

[TOCDriver]

I had a physics teacher who was very good and explaining these issues!

The china syndrome is a loss of coolant accident in that the core melts and then burns through the reactor vessel - if i recall correctly the issue is how far into the earth the molten "slag" (cant recall the correct term) "burns" it is thought it should stop after a couple of meters or when the slag temperature falls below a certain point. should stop.

Either way Japan wont be a place to visit for a while!

It's when the molten core burns its way through the containment and deep into the ground. Not so bad if that ground is dry, but if it hits groundwater, you'll get a huge explosion and all hell gets let loose - radioactivity being released on an unimaginable scale.

 

[DarloRich]

It's when the molten core burns its way through the containment and deep into the ground. Not so bad if that ground is dry, but if it hits groundwater, you'll get a huge explosion and all hell gets let loose - radioactivity being released on an unimaginable scale.

I know - lets hope the concrete pad the reactors were built on is quite thick. Like i said it SHOULD stop after a few meters.............

 

[Nym]

So we're looking at something akin to what happened at Three Mile Island?

 

[DarloRich]

So we're looking at something akin to what happened at Three Mile Island?

no that was a partial melt down with a small release of nasty stuff - this is much worse

There have been 2 level 7 nuclear accidents. Chernobyl and Fukushima. That is the scale we are talking about. 3 Mile Island was a 4 or a 5.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Nuclear_Event_Scale#Level_7:_Major_accident )

 

[Nym]

no that was a partial melt down with a small release of nasty stuff - this is much worse

Isn't the groundwater dangerously close to the plant with it being on the coast anyway? It isn't much of a confidence boost if theres a media blackout, especially since this is what happened with Windscale and Prypiat...

 

[TOCDriver]

Can we have some links?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz1j4IHcsP4

If there is another earthquake (and it is in the pacific ring of fire) or if any of the cores completely collapses and hits water, the whole complex will go up and would make Chernobyl look like a tea party. Goodbye Japan and the West Coast of America

 

[Johnuk123]

I think if it really was quite as bad as people on here are saying we might have heard something official by now media blackout or not.

 

[DarloRich]

I think if it really was quite as bad as people on here are saying we might have heard something official by now media blackout or not.

I have no idea if it is happening or will happen simply offering comparisons with other nuclear incidents.

I KNEW my interest in nuclear disasters would come in handy one day

 

[Johnuk123]

I have no idea if it is happening or will happen simply offering comparisons with other nuclear incidents.

I KNEW my interest in nuclear disasters would come in handy one day

I'm sure that there is a problem and the Japs being the country they are will not admit anything serious but I will still be buying a 5 year diary.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Let me get this straight.
While this 'secret' scare has been devloping, just four days ago, there was an extraordinary meeting of the world's heads of state and/or senior strategists with expertise in managing nuclear threats in Geneva. But they ignored this great nuclear threat to global stability and concentrated solely on Iran's nuclear programme.

How am I to reconcile that?
Was the secret so silent that even the heads of state hadn't been briefed?
Did the Geneva talks include a closed session on the Japanese threat?
Or is the threat only of a really significant magnitude on internet fora?

 

[Nym]

Let me get this straight.
While this 'secret' scare has been devloping, just four days ago, there was an extraordinary meeting of the world's heads of state and/or senior strategists with expertise in managing nuclear threats in Geneva. But they ignored this great nuclear threat to global stability and concentrated solely on Iran's nuclear programme.

How am I to reconcile that?
Was the secret so silent that even the heads of state hadn't been briefed?
Did the Geneva talks include a closed session on the Japanese threat?
Or is the threat only of a really significant magnitude on internet fora?

Proberbly option 2 or 1, 1 would be in the form of Japan not telling anyone...

 

[Johnuk123]

The world is still waiting for the Japanese to formally and officially properly apologise for the countless millions of WW2 war crimes.
If you look into what they got up to all over the Far East in the early to the middle of the last century it makes the Holocaust look quite small.
They are responsible for the worst war crimes imaginable but deny they ever committed any at all.

If it wasn't for the Americans dropping a couple of nuclear weapons on them they would still be at it now.

At least Germany did try and apologise for what they did.

Don't expect any Japanese press conferences about this incident unless it's to say nothing to worry about it's all under control.

 

[TOCDriver]

Let me get this straight.
While this 'secret' scare has been devloping, just four days ago, there was an extraordinary meeting of the world's heads of state and/or senior strategists with expertise in managing nuclear threats in Geneva. But they ignored this great nuclear threat to global stability and concentrated solely on Iran's nuclear programme.

How am I to reconcile that?
Was the secret so silent that even the heads of state hadn't been briefed?
Did the Geneva talks include a closed session on the Japanese threat?
Or is the threat only of a really significant magnitude on internet fora?

Who says they haven't been briefed? Who am I to argue with world leading nuclear physicists? Would you want to start world panic and cause economic meltdown? Besides, politicians have kept plenty of things covered up in the past, haven't they? And with those hundreds of tanks being built all around the place to store highly radioactive cooling water on a daily basis, there is a problem there, that's for sure.

 

[Tracked]

I thought the main thing is that, unless you're unlucky enough to be so near that you're killed by the initial blast, the effects on health don't become apparent until a long time later.

29 (?) people died in the initial blast at Chernobyl, from memory the figure I'd seen from additional cancer deaths was suggested to be 20k+ in the longer term.

What I remember clearly after the Earthquake/Tsunami of 2011 was everyone saying afterwards how they were so efficient they were getting the fixed and everything fixed in a few months and that we'd take years to sort stuff out. A casual look through stories about safety cock-ups, leaks & dodgy employment practices related to the Fukushima clean-up suggests not all is well in that department ...

 

[fowler9]

The world is still waiting for the Japanese to formally and officially properly apologise for the countless millions of WW2 war crimes.
If you look into what they got up to all over the Far East in the early to the middle of the last century it makes the Holocaust look quite small.
They are responsible for the worst war crimes imaginable but deny they ever committed any at all.

If it wasn't for the Americans dropping a couple of nuclear weapons on them they would still be at it now.

At least Germany did try and apologise for what they did.

Don't expect any Japanese press conferences about this incident unless it's to say nothing to worry about it's all under control.

I don't know mate, I believe that there is no Japanese word for sorry that means quite the same as it does in English. I know that in various parts of the world I have been looked at like I am mad for using their word for sorry when it isn't the right way to express yourself, I'm talking Spanish speaking countries here. Also has America ever apologised for nuking 2 Japanese cities full of civilians? Maybe they have, I really don't know.

 

[Jonny]

I'm sure that there is a problem and the Japs being the country they are will not admit anything serious but I will still be buying a 5 year diary.

So much so that they would rather let the entire human race go extinct than lose face. Need I say any more?
: shivers:

 

[Tracked]

Was watching This: The True Battle of Chernobyl Uncensored the other night, quite interesting doc about the 6 months or so after the Chernobyl disaster with a lot of footage from not long afterwards that I'd not seen before - ie: the people on the roof shovelling graphite and assorted crap back inside the building, apparently they could only stay about 45 seconds, working out at 2 tiny shovels full ...

Anyway, one difference is that Chernobyl made the Russians less secretive, Fukushima appears to be having the opposite effect with the Japanese (they've passed one of those horribly vague secrecy laws recently).

 

[WessexEclectic]

Apparently, one of the ingredients in the coolant is something called Hydroxylic Acid.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The world is still waiting for the Japanese to formally and officially properly apologise for the countless millions of WW2 war crimes.
If you look into what they got up to all over the Far East in the early to the middle of the last century it makes the Holocaust look quite small.
They are responsible for the worst war crimes imaginable but deny they ever committed any at all.

If it wasn't for the Americans dropping a couple of nuclear weapons on them they would still be at it now.

At least Germany did try and apologise for what they did.

Don't expect any Japanese press conferences about this incident unless it's to say nothing to worry about it's all under control.

So you want people to apologise on behalf of their ancestors, do you? Should we be apologising to the Irish for the potato famine? Or to the Boers for our concentration camps?

The Japanese's actions during WW2 and before are irrelevant to this discussion, and I find it odd that you've shoehorned them in.

 

[gnolife]

Apparently, one of the ingredients in the coolant is something called Hydroxylic Acid.

Or H2O

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How am I to reconcile that?
Was the secret so silent that even the heads of state hadn't been briefed?
Did the Geneva talks include a closed session on the Japanese threat?
Or is the threat only of a really significant magnitude on internet fora?

As ever, Dave, you bring a voice of cold logic to bear on a subject that causes consternation on internet fora.

 

[CC 72100]

Was watching This: The True Battle of Chernobyl Uncensored the other night, quite interesting doc about the 6 months or so after the Chernobyl disaster with a lot of footage from not long afterwards that I'd not seen before - ie: the people on the roof shovelling graphite and assorted crap back inside the building, apparently they could only stay about 45 seconds, working out at 2 tiny shovels full ...

Anyway, one difference is that Chernobyl made the Russians less secretive, Fukushima appears to be having the opposite effect with the Japanese (they've passed one of those horribly vague secrecy laws recently).

Fantastic documentary - have watched it in various languages now but never knowingly the 'uncensored' version - didn't know there were two versions!

 

[Tracked]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27669393

The operator of Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear plant has begun work on a large underground ice wall to isolate toxic water it has produced.

The 1.5km (0.9 mile) wall will be made by inserting 1,550 pipes into the ground. Coolant circulating in the pipes will freeze the surrounding soil.

...

Last week, the Nuclear Regulation Authority agreed that plant operator Tepco could begin construction work on the frozen wall.

The government-funded ice wall is intended to stop nearby groundwater from seeping into the plant and mixing with contaminated water inside.

Would've thought diverting the groundwater further upstream would be easier?

 

[Emyr]

The problem is that these are sited near the coast, so the groundwater would be tidal.

 

[Tracked]

The problem is that these are sited near the coast, so the groundwater would be tidal.

good point just thought the dealing with the stuff coming down from the mountains would be a bit easier to deal with if you're not working in as heavily a contaminated area.

Dealing with the sea side of things is a bit trickier when they've more or less built their reactors on a beach, they'd have been better off leaving the Donkey rides there ...

 

[Jonny]

The problem is that these are sited near the coast, so the groundwater would be tidal.

I think the groundwater in question is 'fresh' groundwater, so tidal flow is less likely to be an issue.