FTPE 'dating' tickets

[Sidious]

I have encountered an issue using FTPE for break of journey and am wondering if anyone else can advise or has encountered similar problems?

I regularly travel Durham to Manchester. On 17/10/12 I purchased a Return Manchester - Durham.

I travelled from Durham to York on the return portion (on a FTPE Newcastle - Manchester Airport train) on 10/11/12.

On FTPE trains the conductors rarely carry 'ticket punchers' which are regularly used on XC and EC services, and either scribble a big cross, write the date on the ticket, circle the date or sign the ticket.

This then causes difficulties if there is a break of journey. On Saturday I stopped in York and resumed travel today. As soon as the conductor arrived he argued that the ticket had already been used. Obviously I stood my ground, and after some arguing he accepted the point but there appears to be no way to prove that the ticket was only used for a portion of the journey, unlike when EC stamp it with the train number.

Does anyone have any advice for dealing with this situation, and is it common elsewhere in the UK or it it unique to FTPE (and Northern)?

Many thanks.

 

[Crossover]

I have wondered this before, but really I guess it is one word against another. As long as you are not doubling back then you're fine and you did well to stand your ground on it (I suspect some wouldn't and would suffer the consequences as a result)

 

[GadgetMan]

When the guard inspects/marks the ticket on the first date you use it, ask the guard to endorse the back of the ticket to explain you're breaking your journey at xx station.

This should help avoid any confusion when you then continue your journey.

 

[Crossover]

When the guard inspects/marks the ticket on the first date you use it, ask the guard to endorse the back of the ticket to explain you're breaking your journey at xx station.

This should help avoid any confusion when you then continue your journey.

This is true - just to clarify though, there is no requirement on the behalf of the passenger to do this

 

[Urban Gateline]

Not many TOC staff (RPI's or Guards) down south date or hole-punch tickets (Probably because of high passenger numbers), one Guard from my TOC (SWT) said they are banned from using hole-punches!

My personal policy as Gateline staff is to write the date on any "Open" ticket if someone either wishes to keep it or if they wish to break the Journey I will also write the 3 letter station code next to the date so anyone checking it later will know where it was last checked.

It is unfortunate that you had trouble because of just the date being written on the ticket, I guess that FTPE maybe don't get stampers or hole-punches so the Train ID would have to be manually written on it which may take too much time hence why they only put the date on it!

 

[Crossover]

I think I have had a few stamps on FTPE before. There again, it isn't overly helpful when it has the service code as 1A00 on a default date

Would not being able to use hole punches be the environmental factor by any chance?

 

[Eagle]

Would not being able to use hole punches be the environmental factor by any chance?

More likely the accidentally-punched-out-some-of-the-information-on-the-ticket factor.

 

[Lad Brookes]

And even more likely the need-to-purchase-ticket-stamps factor!

 

[snail]

This is true - just to clarify though, there is no requirement on the behalf of the passenger to do this

What if the ticket has been used but retained and the return portion is being used for a second time? Is the onus on the TOC to prove this, or is it simply their fault for not taking the ticket off the passenger at the end of the original journey?

 

[Sidious]

What if the ticket has been used but retained and the return portion is being used for a second time? Is the onus on the TOC to prove this, or is it simply their fault for not taking the ticket off the passenger at the end of the original journey?

That's the issue Snail. I *could* re-use a return portion by falsely claiming that I had broken my journey. I *wouldn't* do this, but it is very easy for the train company to allege that is the case, because I have no way of proving that I did infact break my journey, and my ticket has already been defaced by a previous conductor!

 

[Urban Gateline]

What if the ticket has been used but retained and the return portion is being used for a second time? Is the onus on the TOC to prove this, or is it simply their fault for not taking the ticket off the passenger at the end of the original journey?

Yes it will be the TOC that needs to prove this, hence why I will mark these types of tickets if people want to keep them, otherwise they go through the barrier and are mostly retained. With many destination stations being unmanned though it is sometimes up to the Guard to adequately mark tickets as being used.

Also if the aforementioned ticket has been through a ticket barrier anywhere then anyone with an Avantix can check this by swiping the ticket, although this may not work if the passenger has intentionally damaged the magnetic strip of the ticket!

 

[RPI]

A pen mark on a ticket means nothing, the ticket should be stamped with a "Zifa" stamper, it really bugs me when guards just scribble on a ticket!!!!! Not sure if TPE are issued with Zifa's though.

 

[YorkshireRider]

How would a stamp or hole punched on the ticket prove you hadnt already used it to Manchester? If you had been travelling all the way to Manchester on that airport train your ticket would still have been stamped in the same way (had the guard had a stamper).

 

[yorkie]

I suggest you write to TPE expressing your concerns and disappointment at being treated in this way. I am happy to proof read a letter, simply send me a PM if you like.

When the guard inspects/marks the ticket on the first date you use it, ask the guard to endorse the back of the ticket to explain you're breaking your journey at xx station.

This should help avoid any confusion when you then continue your journey.

I don't think so, I did say a couple of times "I am breaking my journey at X" but it made no difference whatsoever to how the ticket was marked, so I don't bother now. There's certainly no requirement to do this, and if a guard early on in the journey wants to write where the ticket is being used to then the guard needs to ask the passenger that.

I once had a TPE guard rip my ticket (shame I wasn't breaking my journey in Leeds or using station facilities there) from Nuneaton to York, it had a stamp on Virgin to Warrington, a hole on ATW to Manchester and the guard clearly wanted to do something different.

There is apparently a particularly nasty TPE guard I've heard about, but most are great. I'll send the OP a PM...

 

[Sidious]

I suggest you write to TPE expressing your concerns and disappointment at being treated in this way. I am happy to proof read a letter, simply send me a PM if you like.

I don't think so, I did say a couple of times "I am breaking my journey at X" but it made no difference whatsoever to how the ticket was marked, so I don't bother now. There's certainly no requirement to do this, and if a guard early on in the journey wants to write where the ticket is being used to then the guard needs to ask the passenger that.

I once had a TPE guard rip my ticket (shame I wasn't breaking my journey in Leeds or using station facilities there) from Nuneaton to York, it had a stamp on Virgin to Warrington, a hole on ATW to Manchester and the guard clearly wanted to do something different.

There is apparently a particularly nasty TPE guard I've heard about, but most are great. I'll send the OP a PM...

Yeah, thanks Yorkie - He wasn't rude, and I won't be taking it further. I suppose it's up to them to ramp things up by issuing a Fare Notice or whatever, then I could come back with the details - As FTPE have on all of their doors "Smile you are on CCTV" I am sure there would be evidence of me alighting the train if they wanted to find it.

Ultimately though there is an issue with working practices in the North of England which seem inconsistent with elsewhere in the country and I would be more concerned if I were going further afield.

How would a stamp or hole punched on the ticket prove you hadnt already used it to Manchester? If you had been travelling all the way to Manchester on that airport train your ticket would still have been stamped in the same way (had the guard had a stamper).

In BR days each route had it's own ticket punch. It was not uncommon to get three or four punches in a ticket en-route. I suppose it's cheaper for train comanies to give conductors a bic biro to scribble on a ticket these days...

 

[table38]

Unusually I did get punched by a FTPE Guard last Thursday

 

[calc7]

I'm actually more surprised by how much that ticket costs, table38! What a shame the £3.90 GMPTE-priced CDR to Wigan is not valid via Warrington.

 

[Eagle]

I'm actually more surprised by how much that ticket costs, table38! What a shame the £3.90 GMPTE-priced CDR to Wigan is not valid via Warrington.

By which you mean, what a shame that the Borough of Warrington in 1972 decided against being included in Greater Manchester.

 

[table38]

I'm actually more surprised by how much that ticket costs, table38! What a shame the £3.90 GMPTE-priced CDR to Wigan is not valid via Warrington.

Tell me about it! You can do a useful split at Glazebrook to take maximum advantage of the GMPTE TfGM discount, but then I need to change in Manchester and get the all-shacks stopper

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By which you mean, what a shame that the Borough of Warrington in 1972 decided against being included in Greater Manchester.

Warrington wanted to be in Cheshire... but I was living in Appleton at the time, and I'm not 100% sure Cheshire wanted Warrington

Maybe our fault though, as before the advent of post codes, we were supposed to put the postal town on letters, so were supposed to put "Appleton, Warrington, Lancashire" but that made it sound as if we lived "the wrong side of the canal" so be used to put "Appleton, Warrington, Cheshire"

 

[steadmane]

Interesting as I was returning back from Banbury to Brighton but breaking at Gatwick Airport for a week - the FGW guard on the Reading-Gatwick leg dated my ticket and when I mentioned I was breaking my journey just said "Not my problem, you'll have to explain it to Southern" then added "I'm not sure you can anyway".

This sort of activity really annoys me - if this is to become the new thing for guards to do (I've noticed it on Southern, SouthEastern and FGW now) then they should at least mark the station next to it without having to be asked.

I was questioned when I arrived at Brighton as well.

 

[323235]

Unusually I did get punched by a FTPE Guard last Thursday

A Wayfarer would have saved you a massive 40p

 

[northwichcat]

Even Northern guards, who don't normally mark tickets, scribble the date on the return parts of tickets which are not restricted to a certain date (unless someone else has already done it.)

When I did Doncaster-Knutsford once using a TPE service between Doncaster and Stockport, the first TPE guard date stamped the ticket, then following a crew change at Sheffield the second guard (armed with a pen) scribbled the date on the ticket in large letters using a biro, which seemed a bit pointless.
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A Wayfarer would have saved you a massive 40p

Although the restrictions would be different. A Wayfarer does not allow travel via Newton-le-Willows but does allow onward bus travel in both Warrington and Stalybridge.

 

[gnolife]

Even Northern guards, who don't normally mark tickets, scribble the date on the return parts of tickets which are not restricted to a certain date (unless someone else has already done it.)

When I did Doncaster-Knutsford once using a TPE service between Doncaster and Stockport, the first TPE guard date stamped the ticket, then following a crew change at Sheffield the second guard (armed with a pen) scribbled the date on the ticket in large letters using a biro, which seemed a bit pointless.
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Although the restrictions would be different. A Wayfarer does not allow travel via Newton-le-Willows but does allow onward bus travel in both Warrington and Stalybridge.

A Wayfarer allows travel by Rail only via Newton Le Willows.

 

[northwichcat]

A Wayfarer allows travel by Rail only via Newton Le Willows.

OK. I don't think it used to.

 

[Flamingo]

I'll always mark a ticket BOJ & station as well as stamping it when the passenger says they want to use it for a boj, don't stamp it. The number of passengers who look REALLY hacked off when I do this makes me wonder how many were intending using them as season tickets. (I've had 3 in 2 days that presented me with stamped / punched tickets and in one case tried to persuade me they hadn't used the ticket before and had no money - he was left with Revenue - the other two accepted it as a fair cop and bought a new ticket.)

 

[sheff1]

When I did Doncaster-Knutsford once using a TPE service between Doncaster and Stockport, the first TPE guard date stamped the ticket, then following a crew change at Sheffield the second guard (armed with a pen) scribbled the date on the ticket in large letters using a biro, which seemed a bit pointless.

Indeed. There is one TPE guard on this section who writes a huge date on anything, even a Sheffield - Stockport day ticket.

As RPI said, pen markings on a ticket mean nothing. They certainly don't change its validity. I do not query anything, however bizarre, guards choose to write/scribble on my ticket - I will still continue to use it within the bounds of its validity.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't have a copy of the NRCoC in front of me, but isn't there something about defaced tickets being invalid? Surely a big scribble on it counts as defaced?

 

[michael769]

I don't have a copy of the NRCoC in front of me, but isn't there something about defaced tickets being invalid? Surely a big scribble on it counts as defaced?

Surely if a member of staff scribbling on a valid ticket invalidated it, then to do so would be a material breach of train companies contractual obligations under the NCoC to provide the passenger with the rail service(s) he paid them to provide!

 

[Flamingo]

I'm sorry, you'll have to explain that, I have no idea what you mean.

 

[LexyBoy]

He means that invalidating a passenger's valid ticket mid-travel is a bit naughty.