FTP dispute - thoughts and opinions please?

[mason1985]

Hi Guys -

Friendly advice appreciated.

Quick overview - I received my first FTP on the *redacted* last year (*redacted* - i remember it well). I've always been a motorist and for the first time in my life had to use trains. I was advised to simply purchase a ticket on the train from the condcutor and voilla - clearly not the case - got an FTP - nothing I could do - fare paid via telephone - onwards and upwards.

At the start of Feb however it's a different story. Wavertree tech park on at least two occasions now hasn't took my debit card. Either their system has been down or my card just hasn't been accepted. On this particular day their systems were getting 'updated' and i was advised this could be the reason it wouldn't work.

Long story short - the SWAT team got me when I got off at Lime Street - they very craftily positioned themselves on THIS side of the barrier as opposed to the otherside where you normally get the chance to purchase a ticket when you alight - if that makes sense.

I've been wolloped with an £80 fine which I won't be paying. I've purchased a trio pass for the last 12-18 months, my pass ran out the day before the above incident and I even done my best to purchase a ticket on the day of it.

The agent was't interested in any 'excuse' I had. This happened at the start of Feb and I know there we're about another 30-40 people at least in the same position when I had received my fine.

I'm wondering if anyone got pics of this or experienced the same - anyway thoughts and advice appreciated.

 

[156441]

The fact that you have had a failure to pay previously and have now been caught again is good enough grounds for criminal conviction for fare evasion and Northern WILL pursue that I can 100% assure you.

I'm sure someone on here will be along with technicalities that you could try to worm out on but my advice would be to pay the £80 and take the slap on the wrists. Unless you want a criminal record and a hefty fine.

Your best bet would be to try and secure evidence that there was not a chance to pay before arriving at Lime Street. You could ask customer relations if they have any record of the station being unable to offer card transactions as this is always logged.

It's worth noting customer relations and prosecutions are two very different departments so try and be nice to them and I'm sure you'll get the same in return.

 

[VisualAcid]

The fact that you have had a failure to pay previously and have now been caught again is good enough grounds for criminal conviction for fare evasion and Northern WILL pursue that I can 100% assure you.

I'm sure someone on here will be along with technicalities that you could try to worm out on but my advice would be to pay the £80 and take the slap on the wrists. Unless you want a criminal record and a hefty fine.

Your best bet would be to try and secure evidence that there was not a chance to pay before arriving at Lime Street. You could ask customer relations if they have any record of the station being unable to offer card transactions as this is always logged.

It's worth noting customer relations and prosecutions are two very different departments so try and be nice to them and I'm sure you'll get the same in return.

Although his story isn't that clear it seems to be he didn't have an opportunity to pay and was stopped before the ticket barriers a Lime Street, surely it would be wrong for him to pay anything? The previous encounter shouldn't matter.

 

[bb21]

Could you be a bit more specific as to what happened on that particular day, especially at Wavertree? What did you do/say/hear at the origin and destination? What type of card did you use?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The 'Failure to Pay' (FTP) scheme which Northern introduced last year will offer passengers without a ticket the opportunity to settle the matter by way of an administrative payment of £80 which the passenger is at liberty to disregard if they would rather bring their evidence to the Magistrates Courts and argue the matter.

Two immediate thoughts are:
- the £80 is not a fine in the sense that you are compelled to pay or else face collection of that £80 plus collection costs. You can disregard it with impunity (but then address the legal challenge of travelling without a valid ticket).
- the FTP scheme is only effective where the passenger had passed an opportunity to pay. This will be a matter of fact (not opinion). If an FTP notice was issued when there was no opportunity to pay (to be clear, I'm not saying 'that one opportunity whch might have been available was not', I'm saying that there was not any opportunity at any point in time after arriving at the origin station) then it will be revoked.

However, if you feel inclined to challenge the Company over their 'offer' , I strongly urge you to stick to the facts, including the fact that it is not a fine and they will have no mechanism for enforcing it. The default position will be a defence in front of the Magistrates.
I do not recommend the you pursue this line of argument: "my pass ran out the day before the above incident and I even done my best to purchase a ticket on the day of it.

The agent was't interested in any 'excuse' I had.". The facts of your ticket to travel are the relevant facts.
Perhaps you can show that the FTP notice should be withdrawn because the Company had provided no opportunity to pay before or during travel? From their own documentaion, the Company claims that FTP is only applied when personnel are briefed about any inoperative ticket machines.

 

[island]

Note that if you fail to pay the £80, you will be prosecuted and can face a fine in court of up to £1000, plus costs, plus victim surcharge, and a potential criminal record. This is not something to bury your head in the sand on.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Given that Wavertree has a staffed booking office and not self-service machines there are three points that you need to be really clear about

1) Did you not have any alternative method of payment to offer the booking clerk? i.e: Cash or any other card?

2) Exactly what did the clerk tell you in respect to travelling once your card 'failed' and did you ask?

3) Having not obtained a ticket and having boarded the train did you approach any staff on-board to seek an opportunity to pay?

 

[156441]

You easiest and first line of defence is asking customer relations if they have a log of the card machines being down.

Northern have a log of every booking office failure on the network. If you can get them to offer up this information you have a pretty sound case.

 

[185]

I was advised to simply purchase a ticket on the train from the conductor

....

Wavertree tech park on at least two occasions now hasn't took my debit card

Assuming the card machines were down on the day you were stopped:

As a matter of course, I would make Merseytravel, the PTE aware of this situation as the local franchise contract requires both Merseyrail and Northern to cover all booking offices with "full retail facilities at all times from first train to last".

Breaches of their contract results in Merseytravel reducing the annual subsidy paid to those two companies.

I note others mention buying on board or offering other methods of payment. From a guards perspective, most have already cashed up by WTP - very few go through after Huyton/Roby. If the card machines are down, which does happen, that is Northern's problem, not yours.

 

[fowler9]

Given all Merseytravel stations are staffed why does Lime Street have a little desk platform side where you can buy a ticket? Do most major stations have this?

 

[island]

Given all Merseytravel stations are staffed why does Lime Street have a little desk platform side where you can buy a ticket? Do most major stations have this?

It is common at major terminal stations, to facilitate customers who were unable to buy their desired ticket for whatever reason. It includes scenarios where the ticket a passenger required was unavailable at the vending machine so they bought a ticket for part of their journey and are desirous of part-exchanging it.

 

[fowler9]

It is common at major terminal stations, to facilitate customers who were unable to buy their desired ticket for whatever reason. It includes scenarios where the ticket a passenger required was unavailable at the vending machine so they bought a ticket for part of their journey and are desirous of part-exchanging it.

Makes sense to an extent, most Merseytravel stations in my area don't have vending machines though including South Parkway, but I've never noticed one at Manchester Piccadilly, Victoria or Oxford Road. I don't think I noticed one at Leeds last time I was there either. Maybe the one at Lime Street is just obvious.

And Lime Streets underground station has no platform side ticket outlet, neither do Moorfields or James Street, not sure about Central.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't think I noticed one at Leeds last time I was there either. Maybe the one at Lime Street is just obvious.

It's down by platform 2. If you arrive in the morning peak there'll be huge queues of people who mostly boarded at unstaffed stations and a guard didn't get round to.

 

[fowler9]

It's down by platform 2. If you arrive in the morning peak there'll be huge queues of people who mostly boarded at unstaffed stations and a guard didn't get round to.

Cheers for that, I had just never noticed it.

 

[mason1985]

Could you be a bit more specific as to what happened on that particular day, especially at Wavertree? What did you do/say/hear at the origin and destination? What type of card did you use?

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

I got to the station and realised my trio pass had ran out. Approached the cash desk and attempted to pay for a one way to lime street by card (£1.90). I was advised that there had been a new booking system installed recently and it was getting either updated/upgraded - something along those lines the exact phraseology I can't confirm. As a result I couldn't use my card. I had £0 in cash and only have a debit card - cleared the credit cards and cut them up long ago.

I've since approached the guy who works at Wavertree Tech Park station to ask him if he keeps anything in terms of any records. He has a notebook and confirmed a brand new system was installed a week before my FTP notice though he can't specifcally remember any days when there was system maintenance.

He didn't remember my face as a regular (which makes sense as i never need to approach the desk thanks to purchasing a trio every month) but also confirmed he had recently written a letter to support someone who was in a similar situation and got a slap on the wrist from manegement for it.

 

[mason1985]

The fact that you have had a failure to pay previously and have now been caught again is good enough grounds for criminal conviction for fare evasion and Northern WILL pursue that I can 100% assure you.

I'm sure someone on here will be along with technicalities that you could try to worm out on but my advice would be to pay the £80 and take the slap on the wrists. Unless you want a criminal record and a hefty fine.

Your best bet would be to try and secure evidence that there was not a chance to pay before arriving at Lime Street. You could ask customer relations if they have any record of the station being unable to offer card transactions as this is always logged.

It's worth noting customer relations and prosecutions are two very different departments so try and be nice to them and I'm sure you'll get the same in return.

The term 'caught again' doesn't bode well with me.

As mentioned quite clearly, to someone who has never rode local trains in his life until October 2013 the ticket buying process is a disaster. People are happy to sell them at the counter, sell them on the train itself, sell them on the platform etc. Yes I was caught though in my opinion with a completely valid excuse. FTP notice issued - note taken.

In the second instance, having had a valid TRIO pass as mentioned for 12-18 months which had unfortunately expired 24 hours earlier, and having tried to pay via my card which is a perfectly sound way of offering settlement in the 21st century - I was told it wasn't possible due to system updates.

As a result, I don't see any reason to accept a hefty 'slap on the wrist' and sacrifice a days pay for something beyond my control.

 

[bb21]

I got to the station and realised my trio pass had ran out. Approached the cash desk and attempted to pay for a one way to lime street by card (£1.90). I was advised that there had been a new booking system installed recently and it was getting either updated/upgraded - something along those lines the exact phraseology I can't confirm. As a result I couldn't use my card. I had £0 in cash and only have a debit card - cleared the credit cards and cut them up long ago.

If the system was being updated and they were not taking cards on that day, I think that is a perfectly legitimate reason to arrive at Lime Street without a ticket if you intended to pay by card. Was there a TVM you could have used your card in or was everything down that day?

I would imagine that Northern would have a record of the non-availability so the matter should be successfully appealed in due course. Did you state this in your original reply?

 

[156441]

I've already advised the OP twice to contact customer relations as they WILL have a log of non availability of debit card transactions.

Sadly we seem to be bypassing that point which could actually be the simplest solution.