Front & Back of Reversing Trains ???

[Altfish]

I went from Stockport to Pwllheli last Saturday. We changed at Shrewsbury to the Cambrian line.

The train was a 4 car class 158 that had started at Birmingham International. The train splits at Machynlleth, 2 cars to Pwllheli and 2 to Aberystwyth.

We had about a 40-minute wait at Shrewsbury and wanted to get ready to board the train that we thought could be busy (it was!!). An announcement from the station announcer went up about the train splitting, it concluded along the lines of, "..board the front carriages for stations to Pwllheli".
So at Shrewsbury we got into the front carriages.

The problem was the announcement was wrong and referred to the front carriages of the train coming from Birmingham. When this was announced on the train about 50% of the passengers had to relocate.

Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic but when you know the train is reversing surely the announcement should refer to the train going forward, not where the train had come from.

 

[A Challenge]

Perhaps it should just say 'on arrival' like they do for where the first is on voyagers at Reading?

 

[sprinterguy]

Perhaps it should just say 'on arrival' like they do for where the first is on voyagers at Reading?

That would seem to be the pragmatic solution. I would think that many passengers would locate the front of the train based on its direction of travel as it arrives, being unaware that the train subsequently reverses direction if they are not regular travellers.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Perhaps it should just say 'on arrival' like they do for where the first is on voyagers at Reading?

Doesn't that only work if you see the train arrive? At Reading, there's a choice of bay or through platforms. Regular travellers would know that almost all Voyagers reverse, but casual ones may not be familiar with the railway geography of the area.

 

[Adam0984]

At Leeds for the few LNER trains that run to/from Bradford/Skipton/Harrogate the announcements say 1st class is on the rear of the train is it arrives in the station, this will be on the front of the train as it departs

 

[TheDavibob]

I've been caught out similarly on the Liverpool-Norwich, travelling from Manchester Oxford Road (with a split at Nottingham and a reversal at Sheffield). Were told to be on the "front" coaches for beyond Nottingham (at Manchester) which wasn't altogether helpful.

 

[Altfish]

Perhaps it should just say 'on arrival' like they do for where the first is on voyagers at Reading?

I think it would be better using 'on departure'. I say this because there are about 8/10 minutes wait at Shrewsbury and people could arrive during that time, when the direction of arrival may not be clear.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it would be better using 'on departure'. I say this because there are about 8/10 minutes wait at Shrewsbury and people could arrive during that time, when the direction of arrival may not be clear.

Which does require passengers to know in which direction the train is going to depart. Which based on the seeming prevalence of questions such as "Which way does the train go?" even at terminal stations where they've had to walk past the buffer stops from the concourse seems far from guaranteed.

 

[chubs]

I've been caught out similarly on the Liverpool-Norwich, travelling from Manchester Oxford Road (with a split at Nottingham and a reversal at Sheffield). Were told to be on the "front" coaches for beyond Nottingham (at Manchester) which wasn't altogether helpful.

How is it not helpful? The train does not reverse at Manchester Oxford Road, so the front is fairly obvious.

Said train also reverses at Ely, so the front becomes the front again.

 

[A Challenge]

How is it not helpful? The train does not reverse at Manchester Oxford Road, so the front is fairly obvious.

Said train also reverses at Ely, so the front becomes the front again.

It is the back ones that continue as it is the front after reversal, probably

 

[Altfish]

How is it not helpful? The train does not reverse at Manchester Oxford Road, so the front is fairly obvious.

Said train also reverses at Ely, so the front becomes the front again.

Because the train reverses at Sheffield it is the back coaches you need at Oxford Road to go beyond Nottingham; the reversal at Ely doesn't matter as it is only 2 coaches by then.

 

[Stampy]

Front is the back, and the back is the front???



I know the feeling, as I used to frequently catch the 0947 train from Nottingham to Manchester Piccadilly, and watched as people panicked at Sheffield as they realized that they were sat in the "set" that was staying there - even though numerous announcements had been made that the FRONT set was staying at Sheffield and the REAR 2 coaches were the ones that were going onward....

 

[stuart]

Not to do with splits, but it is fun to see the consternation on the faces of the passengers on an East Coast train reversing at Newcastle to get itself into the correct formation (or occasionally to get a working HST power car at the front), when it sets off in the oppostie direction from its arrival. No sympathy, because passenger announcements are always (in my experience) very clear - but it's evident that a significant proportion of passengers simply don't listen to them.

 

[DanTrain]

At Leeds for the few LNER trains that run to/from Bradford/Skipton/Harrogate the announcements say 1st class is on the rear of the train is it arrives in the station, this will be on the front of the train as it departs

That's what they generally say at Sheffield too when the EMT comes in, reverses and then splits at Nottingham. Seems like the only sensible way to do it really...

 

[185]

Perhaps it should just say 'on arrival' like they do for where the first is on voyagers at Reading?

I do recall Liverpool Lime Street doing the best announcement yet. You have to picture it with the strongest, Mersey Docker-esque Scouse accent.

"Der train on der BLOCKS is de Transpennine One goin ter York via Manchester."

"Der train on ther TOP END is ther stopper fer Wigan, via Snellens Central an everywhere else."

"Top End Wigan."

"On der blocks, York."

Brutal, angry but... essentially, it worked. Everyone understood it

 

[underbank]

This thread reminds me of the regular problems on charter Mk1 stock back in the 70's. When you booked your seat, you had the choice of forward or back - the seat number being the same. I imagine normally it would have been fine, but we often went on excursions from Morecambe with the stock often reversing at Lancaster to go North, so you were in the "right" seat getting on in Morecambe towards Lancaster, but then often got conflict with people getting on opposite you at Lancaster as you didn't know whether you then had to move opposite so that you were still right or whether you stayed where you were and the Lancaster people would then be sat in the wrong seats. Usually we'd laugh about it, but sometimes there were people who really wanted to sit either forward or back who'd cause quite a fuss. Good to see that modern stock has unique numbers per seat and not the forward/back nonsense.

 

[button_boxer]

Maybe at stations where this kind of thing happens regularly they should artificially split the platforms into A and B ends (even if the signalling still treats it as one platform) so the announcements can refer to the carriages at "platform 3B" or whatever rather than calling them front or back.

 

[DelW]

A few years ago I travelled from Redhill to Brighton on a day when the main line was closed. 8-coach trains (2 units) were heading to Littlehampton (a terminal station on the coast) where they reversed, and also split into two 4-coach trains, one going east and one going west. Unfortunately, as in the OP's example, announcements referred to "front four coaches" and "rear four coaches" without making it clear whether this was as they arrived or as they would depart. Cue lots of confused conversations on board as worried passengers sought reassurance.
I think 185's example is the best solution, but "seaward end" and "inland end" would probably have worked at that location as well.

 

[urbophile]

If all coaches on all trains displayed a prominent identification letter or number that would solve it. All they would have to do is say 'coaches A & B' (or whatever) for X. Simples.

 

[DanTrain]

Maybe at stations where this kind of thing happens regularly they should artificially split the platforms into A and B ends (even if the signalling still treats it as one platform) so the announcements can refer to the carriages at "platform 3B" or whatever rather than calling them front or back.

That I think is the solution at many stations, although it can then cause issues with platform 1, platform 1a and platform 1b. Manchester platforms 13 and 14 come to mind, it's far from obvious when a train is due into 13b where that is, the platform is shown as 13, with little signage as to which end is a and which is b (and then some stop in a and b...)

 

[jopsuk]

the other option, for platforms where trains frequently reverse, are a pair of free standing signs, one with "front of train" and the other with "rear of train".

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If all coaches on all trains displayed a prominent identification letter or number that would solve it. All they would have to do is say 'coaches A & B' (or whatever) for X. Simples.

Surprised it took 19 posts for this very simple solution. The problem is that many people are idiots, and the information given by British TOCs is the opposite of concise! On DB many ICE services reverse at Frankfurt-am-Main Hauptbahnhof, and the announcements made upon approach (in German, English and French) clearly state that the service will reverse. Some services split there too, and again the clear, concise announcements in multiple languages explain this. They even say something along the lines of "don't panic, the train is supposed to go back out the way it came in!" Contrast this with the panic witnessed daily on services at Bradford Interchange when people think something's gone wrong as they find themselves going backwards!

People who hate going backwards and go into a panic when they do, also do my head in... but that's another topic altogether!

 

[6Gman]

Maybe at stations where this kind of thing happens regularly they should artificially split the platforms into A and B ends (even if the signalling still treats it as one platform) so the announcements can refer to the carriages at "platform 3B" or whatever rather than calling them front or back.

Or rediscover paper window labels ?

 

[Parallel]

I’ve found the announcements to generally be correct at Shrewsbury, usually announces front coaches for Aberystwyth and rear for Pwllheli. The only time it gets confused is if the train is formed of 2 or 4 coaches going to Aber (passengers changing at Mach for Pwll) and it then says ‘Travel in the front coaches for Pwllheli’, presumably because it doesn’t know what to do with the Pwllheli portion that has been programmed in.

It probably could do with “Passengers for... and Pwllheli, please travel in the front 2 coaches of the train as it arrives at the station. This will be the rear 2 coaches of the train as it departs”

It also happens a lot in GWR land. Once announced the rear two coaches as going to Weymouth. The rear two coaches would’ve been a 153 and half a 150

 

[Parallel]

Which does require passengers to know in which direction the train is going to depart. Which based on the seeming prevalence of questions such as "Which way does the train go?" even at terminal stations where they've had to walk past the buffer stops from the concourse seems far from guaranteed.

I was with a friend at Penarth and he asked me if we were waiting for a train going the Bargoed direction, or the Rhymney direction.

Or rediscover paper window labels ?

I’ve actually seen these on Cambrian trains in recent months. They’re a good idea.

 

[trebor79]

Which does require passengers to know in which direction the train is going to depart. Which based on the seeming prevalence of questions such as "Which way does the train go?" even at terminal stations where they've had to walk past the buffer stops from the concourse seems far from guaranteed.

And at Newcastle a departing train for any destination can depart in either direction from the through platforms.
Not often I grant you, but I have been on Mk4 carriages routed over the High Level Bridge on several occasions.

 

[xotGD]

And at Newcastle a departing train for any destination can depart in either direction from the through platforms.

Only if you include travelling to Edinburgh via Carlisle.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Only if you include travelling to Edinburgh via Carlisle.

Granted this would be tricky on an IC225, but wasn't that how things were done after the Penmanshiel Tunnel collapse?

 

[trebor79]

Only if you include travelling to Edinburgh via Carlisle.

Nope. You can depart towards Edinburgh then over the high level bridge, past the old Greenfield depot site and end up travelling south to London. And vice versa.
A train to Sunderland could depart towards Carlisle. A train to Carlisle could depart towards Sunderland.
Every time I've been on a train which has done this it's because they wanted to turn it so first class was at the usual London end.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Or rediscover paper window labels ?

Class 377s and 387s have coach numbers listed on their side window displays. I've noticed for services that involve a split part-way on their journey, such as Kings Lynn services splitting at Cambridge/Ely, these displays will list which coach numbers are heading to where. So for example with a Cambridge split, it will display:

"Coaches 1 to 4 to Kings Lynn, coaches 5 to 12 to Cambridge"

I believe this information is also displayed on the screens inside the carriages of these units, as I remember seeing information similar to this when travelling on a Southern 377 service to Bognor Regis which split at Horsham.