From FOC to TOC, any regrets?

[Paulm36]

I'm currently working as freight driver and on the whole still enjoy the job, however certain elements have started to drag a bit recently.

A great opportunity has arisen for me to drive for my local TOC, which I fully intend to take and I was wondering how other freight drivers have found the transition?

What have you enjoyed ? What have you missed? How have you found the conversion from a training point of view? Anything you found difficult adapting too? Ultimately, any regrets or was it the best move you made ?

Many thanks for any replies.

 

[anglian96]

I'm currently working as freight driver and on the whole still enjoy the job, however certain elements have started to drag a bit recently.

A great opportunity has arisen for me to drive for my local TOC, which I fully intend to take and I was wondering how other freight drivers have found the transition?

What have you enjoyed ? What have you missed? How have you found the conversion from a training point of view? Anything you found difficult adapting too? Ultimately, any regrets or was it the best move you made ?

Many thanks for any replies.

I made the move in October 23 and haven't looked back yet! Being on a TOC seems abit more enjoyable and interesting compare to freight I find. Certainly more to think about being passenger.

At my FOC the shifts were relatively short and was always home before the end of my diagram as at my TOC your looking at average 8 hour diagrams and not much room for cutting corners although now on a 4 day week it seems I'm at work more at a TOC. Overtime rate is better at my TOC so potential for earning money is better.

Conversion in training wasn't a problem. Seemed a bit strange at first going through a double yellow at 100mph but you soon get used to it haha.

I'd recommend making the move and if you find it isn't for you then any FOC will snap your hand off to take you back.

On passenger work you can plan alot more due to having a years worth of rostering which is a big bonus. At my FOC it was pretty last minute rostering

 

[Paulm36]

I made the move in October 23 and haven't looked back yet! Being on a TOC seems abit more enjoyable and interesting compare to freight I find. Certainly more to think about being passenger.

At my FOC the shifts were relatively short and was always home before the end of my diagram as at my TOC your looking at average 8 hour diagrams and not much room for cutting corners although now on a 4 day week it seems I'm at work more at a TOC. Overtime rate is better at my TOC so potential for earning money is better.

Conversion in training wasn't a problem. Seemed a bit strange at first going through a double yellow at 100mph but you soon get used to it haha.

I'd recommend making the move and if you find it isn't for you then any FOC will snap your hand off to take you back.

On passenger work you can plan alot more due to having a years worth of rostering which is a big bonus. At my FOC it was pretty last minute rostering

That's great , thanks for the reply. Sounds like you made the right choice. I'll definitely be making the move but it's reassuring to hear freight drivers have made the transition comfortably and are enjoying the work .

I'm definitely looking forward to a more structured roster and for me it'll be shorter diagrams and a lot less car driving which is a massive bonus . I'll also take the nice air conditioned cab that doesn't deafen me . Freight can definitely be a bit monotonous so a change of pace sounds great.

Fingers crossed it's the right move, but it's definitely given me the lift that I needed.

 

[anglian96]

That's great , thanks for the reply. Sounds like you made the right choice. I'll definitely be making the move but it's reassuring to hear freight drivers have made the transition comfortably and are enjoying the work .

I'm definitely looking forward to a more structured roster and for me it'll be shorter diagrams and a lot less car driving which is a massive bonus . I'll also take the nice air conditioned cab that doesn't deafen me . Freight can definitely be a bit monotonous so a change of pace sounds great.

Fingers crossed it's the right move, but it's definitely given me the lift that I needed.

100% it's a good move. There's quite a few ex freight at my TOC and they also say the same as me. Good luck with whatever path you go down im sure you'll choose the right one.

 

[MA8141]

Still in the ‘honeymoon period’ of a move but I’ve never looked back. It’s a much better work environment. Things are more thorough but for me, that’s exactly what I want to feel like I’m doing something right or where I’m not then I get flagged for doing so to rectify it. Not the free for all that freight is. Good luck with the move and rest assured that you are making the right choice in my opinion !

 

[Paulm36]

100% it's a good move. There's quite a few ex freight at my TOC and they also say the same as me. Good luck with whatever path you go down im sure you'll choose the right one.

Thanks mate , and good luck to you too

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2024 ==

Still in the ‘honeymoon period’ of a move but I’ve never looked back. It’s a much better work environment. Things are more thorough but for me, that’s exactly what I want to feel like I’m doing something right or where I’m not then I get flagged for doing so to rectify it. Not the free for all that freight is. Good luck with the move and rest assured that you are making the right choice in my opinion !

Great stuff, thanks for the reply . A better work environment definitely appeals. Unfortunately the freight is definitely lacking in that department sometimes .

 

[Wrexhamfc]

You

I'm currently working as freight driver and on the whole still enjoy the job, however certain elements have started to drag a bit recently.

A great opportunity has arisen for me to drive for my local TOC, which I fully intend to take and I was wondering how other freight drivers have found the transition?

What have you enjoyed ? What have you missed? How have you found the conversion from a training point of view? Anything you found difficult adapting too? Ultimately, any regrets or was it the best move you made ?

Many thanks for any replies.

You're going to find the driving intense, the managers may be a lot more pedantic, you won't be spending five hours in a terminal unloading. Interlock will be a whole new thing for you (check it before you try to pull away) Passengers pulling egresses either for giggles or because they left it too late to get off the train will be an experience. The DRA will be a new experience, but quite vital. You may find you have significantly fewer routes as a passenger driver compared to being a freight driver (unless you are GBRf in which case you'll probably welcome the sudden improvement in rostering)

Brakes: brakes on units are electrically controlled, there's no more brake pipe on passenger units. If you select 5% brake then that's what you'll get instantly, and when you release your brakes they come off instantly.

Lots of freight drivers try Passenger and then go back. Be friendly and nice as you leave your FOC, you may want to go back. Some of your colleagues on freight are former Passenger drivers, have a chat with them.

You'll find passenger turns are a max of 9.5 hours, typically involve 7.5 hours of driving everyday. The rules are the rules and are to be strictly adhered to. Authorised walkways are to be used, even if you have PTS and can safely cross the line. If the unit is leased, you won't be authosrised to flick back an MCB until you've come to a stop, spoken to the signaler, made an announcement ("sorry for the delay.."), spoken to control to get passed over to the inservice support tech who will then authorise you to flick back that MCB (or press the reset button), the littlest thing can become a long winded process.

Departing a platform 2 minutes early is as bad as failure to call. If you ever think that you've misjudged a platform stop and are going to overshoot the end of the platform then release your brakes and carry on - a failure to call means you weren't looking at your schedual card and that is not as serious as failing to look out the window and misjudging a stop.

You might still be driving freight after two or three spads, you may not drive again after one spad on passenger. Passenger drivers have been known to be off track for a lot of months following an incident or two.

If Passenger driving is in your future then I wish you well, but be aware of what you are getting yourself into and keep your options open.

 

[Raikkonen7]

You

You're going to find the driving intense, the managers may be a lot more pedantic, you won't be spending five hours in a terminal unloading. Interlock will be a whole new thing for you (check it before you try to pull away) Passengers pulling egresses either for giggles or because they left it too late to get off the train will be an experience. The DRA will be a new experience, but quite vital. You may find you have significantly fewer routes as a passenger driver compared to being a freight driver (unless you are GBRf in which case you'll probably welcome the sudden improvement in rostering)

Brakes: brakes on units are electrically controlled, there's no more brake pipe on passenger units. If you select 5% brake then that's what you'll get instantly, and when you release your brakes they come off instantly.

Lots of freight drivers try Passenger and then go back. Be friendly and nice as you leave your FOC, you may want to go back. Some of your colleagues on freight are former Passenger drivers, have a chat with them.

You'll find passenger turns are a max of 9.5 hours, typically involve 7.5 hours of driving everyday. The rules are the rules and are to be strictly adhered to. Authorised walkways are to be used, even if you have PTS and can safely cross the line. If the unit is leased, you won't be authosrised to flick back an MCB until you've come to a stop, spoken to the signaler, made an announcement ("sorry for the delay.."), spoken to control to get passed over to the inservice support tech who will then authorise you to flick back that MCB (or press the reset button), the littlest thing can become a long winded process.

Departing a platform 2 minutes early is as bad as failure to call. If you ever think that you've misjudged a platform stop and are going to overshoot the end of the platform then release your brakes and carry on - a failure to call means you weren't looking at your schedual card and that is not as serious as failing to look out the window and misjudging a stop.

You might still be driving freight after two or three spads, you may not drive again after one spad on passenger. Passenger drivers have been known to be off track for a lot of months following an incident or two.

If Passenger driving is in your future then I wish you well, but be aware of what you are getting yourself into and keep your options open.

Some good advice here. Your TOC may have different rostering to mine, but we generally spend between 4-6 hours in the seat. If you think you’re going to overshoot a platform then the worst thing you could do is release the brakes and just carry on. That’s a complete contravention of the rules. Slam it straight into emergency if you think you’re going to overshoot- if you stop in time great- if not determine whether it’s more than 400m and let the signaller make decision as to whether you can set back into the platform. Trying to explain braking for a platform and then releasing would be an interesting conversation with a DTM.

 

[Paulm36]

You

You're going to find the driving intense, the managers may be a lot more pedantic, you won't be spending five hours in a terminal unloading. Interlock will be a whole new thing for you (check it before you try to pull away) Passengers pulling egresses either for giggles or because they left it too late to get off the train will be an experience. The DRA will be a new experience, but quite vital. You may find you have significantly fewer routes as a passenger driver compared to being a freight driver (unless you are GBRf in which case you'll probably welcome the sudden improvement in rostering)

Brakes: brakes on units are electrically controlled, there's no more brake pipe on passenger units. If you select 5% brake then that's what you'll get instantly, and when you release your brakes they come off instantly.

Lots of freight drivers try Passenger and then go back. Be friendly and nice as you leave your FOC, you may want to go back. Some of your colleagues on freight are former Passenger drivers, have a chat with them.

You'll find passenger turns are a max of 9.5 hours, typically involve 7.5 hours of driving everyday. The rules are the rules and are to be strictly adhered to. Authorised walkways are to be used, even if you have PTS and can safely cross the line. If the unit is leased, you won't be authosrised to flick back an MCB until you've come to a stop, spoken to the signaler, made an announcement ("sorry for the delay.."), spoken to control to get passed over to the inservice support tech who will then authorise you to flick back that MCB (or press the reset button), the littlest thing can become a long winded process.

Departing a platform 2 minutes early is as bad as failure to call. If you ever think that you've misjudged a platform stop and are going to overshoot the end of the platform then release your brakes and carry on - a failure to call means you weren't looking at your schedual card and that is not as serious as failing to look out the window and misjudging a stop.

You might still be driving freight after two or three spads, you may not drive again after one spad on passenger. Passenger drivers have been known to be off track for a lot of months following an incident or two.

If Passenger driving is in your future then I wish you well, but be aware of what you are getting yourself into and keep your options open.

Thank you , that's a great insight for me and much appreciated. I realise there are gaps in my knowledge with things such as train dispatch and getting used to applying DRA, learning and getting used to braking techniques and new professional driving policies and such . Going from a fully loaded 2000 ton plus freight train, with air brakes in goods timings is a totally different skill set in comparison to modern electrically controlled braking on passenger units.

This is where my interest comes from and how freight drivers cope with the conversion from FOC to TOC . I've had conversations with ex pass drivers at my depot and they're mostly adamant they're happier as freight drivers and I've had conversations with ex freight drivers that are much happier on the pass .

Personally I do still enjoy working freight and as such with the change of pace and intensity involved with moving to pass there is an element of risk involved. However there are definitely some elements that i wont miss and from a personal development point of view , I guess I'll never know if I don't try .

I'm assuming from the way that you speak that you have indeed worked both , so could I ask how you found the transition between the 2 and where your preference is ?

Thanks again , truly appreciated

 

[Juliet Barvo]

Some good advice here. Your TOC may have different rostering to mine, but we generally spend between 4-6 hours in the seat. If you think you’re going to overshoot a platform then the worst thing you could do is release the brakes and just carry on. That’s a complete contravention of the rules. Slam it straight into emergency if you think you’re going to overshoot- if you stop in time great- if not determine whether it’s more than 400m and let the signaller make decision as to whether you can set back into the platform. Trying to explain braking for a platform and then releasing would be an interesting conversation with a DTM.

So as a passenger driver, the union have always advised us that if you're going to overshoot then carry on because failure to call is less serious than overshooting. I guess it's something you have to discuss early on with your union rep

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2024 ==

The DRA is vital. If you pull into a platform on a single yellow you should always set your DRA before you release your doors, because the moment you do release your doors, you will probably forget all about the red and then you'll do your dispatch, leave the platform, take power up to your target speed and go straight through the red, unless you had the DRA to remind you.

Dispatch from the platform. Elizabeth Line we were to check our signal at after the allotted dwell time, And if we've got a proceed aspect then check the monitors and if safe close the doors, then check the signal again, check for interlock, And check the monitors as you then take power up to 70%.
If it's assisted dispatch, then you don't close your doors until you get the CD come up, you definitely do not take power until you get ra come up, And on ra then you take power up to 70%. Failure to wait for cdra is quite a serious incident.

Pause for doors: once you've stopped your train at the s board on the platform, you must pause the quiet amount of seconds before you release the doors on the correct side. Wrong side door release is quite a serious incident, failure to pause for the required number of seconds before releasing your doors is something that will get brought up by your manager

 

[Aviator88]

So as a passenger driver, the union have always advised us that if you're going to overshoot then carry on because failure to call is less serious than overshooting.

Would it not be obvious from the OTMR that an attempt to slow significantly before a station occurred, before being abandoned and power being taken again? Would this then lead to a question of integrity etc?

I'm ignorant and genuinely curious.

 

[nom de guerre]

Would it not be obvious from the OTMR that an attempt to slow significantly before a station occurred, before being abandoned and power being taken again? Would this then lead to a question of integrity etc?

I'm ignorant and genuinely curious.

That’s exactly what I was wondering.

(A curious signaller)

 

[EZJ]

So as a passenger driver, the union have always advised us that if you're going to overshoot then carry on because failure to call is less serious than overshooting

I think that's awful advice!! Which union rep has been spouting that nonsense. Fail to calls and over runs are treated just the same, they are safety of the line incidents and will be treated as such. There is no fooling a download from the OTMR. As a driver of many many years I'm genuinely baffled by your advice.

 

[muz379]

Would it not be obvious from the OTMR that an attempt to slow significantly before a station occurred, before being abandoned and power being taken again? Would this then lead to a question of integrity etc?

I'm ignorant and genuinely curious.

That would be my take on it tbh , the biggest thing I have known people get in trouble for at the TOC I was at was not reporting / trying to embelish the truth following an incident , be it a SPAD , station overrun , dispatch incident . The truth almost always comes out in the wash these days with OTMR & CCTV everywhere both on trains and stations .

Nobody I knew who had a single incident , reported it and acted correctly post incident was ever subjected to anything beyond a development plan for the incident . People who didnt report incidents or tried to cover them up were in some cases subject to disciplinary procedure .

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I think the idea about failing to call instead of an overrun is that if you’ve forgotten you’re stopping and you suddenly realise when you’re say 0.5 mile a way from the station doing 125mph, don’t even attempt stopping. Allegedly FTC is not as bad as an overrun, I can kind of understand the logic but they’re both operational incidents.

No-one is suggesting and no-one in their right mind is going to apply 50% brake for a station stop reducing speed from 100mph to 50mph and suddenly think screw it I don’t think I’m going to stop, let's whack it back to full power and have a FTC instead because it’s not as bad.

 

[Leeds Driver]

Everything will be obvious from a download. The worst thing you can do is try and lie to management to cover something up. You’ll be out the door very quickly.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Some very peculiar posts and "advice" in this thread

 

[Yfg132]

I also think people are of the mindset that it's just easier to not stop then take your medicine, rather than have to mess about phoning the signaller, walking through the train feeling an idiot and then setting back etc.

 

[TurboMan]

Nobody I knew who had a single incident , reported it and acted correctly post incident was ever subjected to anything beyond a development plan for the incident . People who didnt report incidents or tried to cover them up were in some cases subject to disciplinary procedure .

And in serious cases can result in a possible prison sentence.

 

[UTV]

I moved from Freightliner IM to West Midlands Trains in 2021.

Initially I missed the freight and did consider going back. But I gave it more time and now I’m happy with WMT.

TBH they’re a good company to work for on the whole. Work isn’t too bad at all and the pros and cons of Freight vs Passenger are really a personal thing. So it’s for you to make that decision.

Yes passenger can be more intense and you do have passengers onboard which can have its challenges. But overall it’s not too bad.

Overtime rates are good, there’s always room for negotiations when they ask you if you’d do overtime or RDW.

Go with your gut feeling mate. If you say it’s not that bad where you are then maybe now isn’t the time to make the move.

Always happy to go into more depth if you want to PM. Good luck with whatever your choose.

 

[Yfg132]

The main things that put me off FOC work is not being able to plan ahead what your working in the future for childcare or certain events, that and the RPS although some companies still offer this.

Interesting to hear off freight drivers how they find the roster or lack of? As I've always fancied freight but this puts me off.

 

[Paulm36]

I moved from Freightliner IM to West Midlands Trains in 2021.

Initially I missed the freight and did consider going back. But I gave it more time and now I’m happy with WMT.

TBH they’re a good company to work for on the whole. Work isn’t too bad at all and the pros and cons of Freight vs Passenger are really a personal thing. So it’s for you to make that decision.

Yes passenger can be more intense and you do have passengers onboard which can have its challenges. But overall it’s not too bad.

Overtime rates are good, there’s always room for negotiations when they ask you if you’d do overtime or RDW.

Go with your gut feeling mate. If you say it’s not that bad where you are then maybe now isn’t the time to make the move.

Always happy to go into more depth if you want to PM. Good luck with whatever your choose.

Thanks for that mate, genuinely appreciated . Good to hear that you stuck with it and now enjoy the work .

 

[1867Blue]

You

You're going to find the driving intense, the managers may be a lot more pedantic, you won't be spending five hours in a terminal unloading. Interlock will be a whole new thing for you (check it before you try to pull away) Passengers pulling egresses either for giggles or because they left it too late to get off the train will be an experience. The DRA will be a new experience, but quite vital. You may find you have significantly fewer routes as a passenger driver compared to being a freight driver (unless you are GBRf in which case you'll probably welcome the sudden improvement in rostering)

Brakes: brakes on units are electrically controlled, there's no more brake pipe on passenger units. If you select 5% brake then that's what you'll get instantly, and when you release your brakes they come off instantly.

Lots of freight drivers try Passenger and then go back. Be friendly and nice as you leave your FOC, you may want to go back. Some of your colleagues on freight are former Passenger drivers, have a chat with them.

You'll find passenger turns are a max of 9.5 hours, typically involve 7.5 hours of driving everyday. The rules are the rules and are to be strictly adhered to. Authorised walkways are to be used, even if you have PTS and can safely cross the line. If the unit is leased, you won't be authosrised to flick back an MCB until you've come to a stop, spoken to the signaler, made an announcement ("sorry for the delay.."), spoken to control to get passed over to the inservice support tech who will then authorise you to flick back that MCB (or press the reset button), the littlest thing can become a long winded process.

Departing a platform 2 minutes early is as bad as failure to call. If you ever think that you've misjudged a platform stop and are going to overshoot the end of the platform then release your brakes and carry on - a failure to call means you weren't looking at your schedual card and that is not as serious as failing to look out the window and misjudging a stop.

You might still be driving freight after two or three spads, you may not drive again after one spad on passenger. Passenger drivers have been known to be off track for a lot of months following an incident or two.

If Passenger driving is in your future then I wish you well, but be aware of what you are getting yourself into and keep your options open.

Interested to know which way you went. From pass to freight or freight to pass?

 

[Tyrion]

I went from TOC to FOC and it has been genuinely an eye opener for a myriad of different reasons!
I have enjoyed every minute of it and there is a far greater degree of flexibility needed on freight side and things you do that would never ever be allowed in a TOC!

End of the day there are a lot of pros of both and a lot of cons of both! I know that sounds boring and cliche but it’s the truth!

In a TOC you will get more structure and be able to plan your life a lot better that you ever would be able to at a FOC. That is a highly valuable pro on the TOC side.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

I think the idea about failing to call instead of an overrun is that if you’ve forgotten you’re stopping and you suddenly realise when you’re say 0.5 mile a way from the station doing 125mph, don’t even attempt stopping. Allegedly FTC is not as bad as an overrun, I can kind of understand the logic but they’re both operational incidents.

No-one is suggesting and no-one in their right mind is going to apply 50% brake for a station stop reducing speed from 100mph to 50mph and suddenly think screw it I don’t think I’m going to stop, let's whack it back to full power and have a FTC instead because it’s not as bad.

Spot on.

Surprisingly too sensible for some Drivers and Signallers to grasp

 

[Crazyb]

I moved from Freight 7 years ago to a TOC after 31 years.

The only downside is the repetitive work, everyday is the same. On the freight it's different every day and your the boss.

Pass work, you do get looked after I think as a whole. I miss the freight but would I go back....Noooooooooooo. The freight is not as it was, especially when work gets moved around from FOC to FOC and drivers get Tupe'd, and now you have Port Talbot shutting down and the Steel works up at Scunny. Container traffic is also on a down at the moment.

One thing that got me was the DRA, I kept forgetting that, and it was really weird going from noisy loco to something that was quiet and took off. I also look quite smart now, and no grease on my clothes, or my car seats. The simples things, lol.


If your driving a commuter train, dont forget to let the passengers out at terminus or driver changer overs, so I've been told.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2024 ==

Spot on.

Surprisingly too sensible for some Drivers and Signallers to grasp

Lol, agree a FTC is better than an overrun. My company see a overrun as a ops incident costing money in delays. Just take the brake off and go "oh well"

 

[Gemz91]

So as a passenger driver, the union have always advised us that if you're going to overshoot then carry on because failure to call is less serious than overshooting. I guess it's something you have to discuss early on with your union rep

I’ve never heard this before or heard ASLEF spout this line. How is an overshoot more serious then a fail to call? After any incident, isn’t the important factor what caused the incident and not what the incident was?

 

[AverageJoe]

I always wonder if there is some kind of friction between toc and foc drivers.

It’s rare a toc driver doesn’t acknowledge you as you pass them but foc drivers often don’t even look at you

 

[Carl98k]

I always wonder if there is some kind of friction between toc and foc drivers.

It’s rare a toc driver doesn’t acknowledge you as you pass them but foc drivers often don’t even look at you

As a FOC driver most drivers wave, the ones that don’t are TOC and FOC drivers. I suppose it depends on the individual

 

[1867Blue]

I always wonder if there is some kind of friction between toc and foc drivers.

It’s rare a toc driver doesn’t acknowledge you as you pass them but foc drivers often don’t even look at you

I was told during my driving training as a freight driver to wave at all drivers in the day time, but only turn the cab light on for freight drivers at night

I could never tell which were freight or passenger trains at the start so i waved at them all, all the time.