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From Covid v With Covid

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UP13

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Can anybody explain why the official death rate is people who have died within 28 days of a positive test as opposed to having died from Covid directly.

I understand the need to be better safe than sorry and in the early days of the virus when more was unknown it was better to overstate than understate, but surely this method massively swells the figures and leads to actions that are heavier handed than they need to be and induces increased panic among the population?

What is the official reason for this measure?
 
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DustyBin

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Can anybody explain why the official death rate is people who have died within 28 days of a positive test as opposed to having died from Covid directly.

I understand the need to be better safe than sorry and in the early days of the virus when more was unknown it was better to overstate than understate, but surely this method massively swells the figures and leads to actions that are heavier handed than they need to be and induces increased panic among the population?

What is the official reason for this measure?

In all honesty I think you’ve answered your own question! They must want the figure to be as high as possible, I can’t think of any other reason why, at this stage especially, deaths are recorded in the way they are. If there is another explanation I’d be interested to hear it.
 

Harpers Tate

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Probably because there is rarely one single cause of death, when it occurs. I suspect the majority of "true" Covid deaths are actually from pneumonia or something like it. To start making abritrary decisions about which cases were directly attributable to Covid vs. those that were not (or may not have been) would probably result in numbers just as inaccurate as the ones we see. At least they don't describe them as Covid deaths; they describe them precisely as what they are.
 

dosxuk

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Because a huge number of those people dying don't die from COVID, they die from complications from catching COVID. Pneumonia is a common cause of death amongst COVID patients.

The numbers say exactly what they are, and while it could be (easily) argued there should be a subtraction made for cases where COVID was obviously not involved (car accident, fire, murder, etc) they are otherwise accurate at saying how many people died after being recently infected.
 

UP13

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Could ther be some pragmatism. I.e. car crash and murder victims who were covid positive not being included? Although I imagine that would barely dent the figures.

Apologies if this discussion seems to trivalise death and what is happening however I feel it is important to discuss as rightly or wrong deaths are now freely bandied as mere numbers on a screen and are used to justify all sorts of positions (on both sides).
 

Bantamzen

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This may shed some light on the matter:


Defining a COVID-19 death​

Although it might seem straightforward, counting the number of people who have died from COVID-19 related illness is complex.

The infection can lead to death soon after diagnosis, but it may also cause death many weeks later. Someone who tests positive can of course die from another cause such as cancer or heart disease at any time.

A death in someone who has tested positive becomes progressively less likely to be directly due to COVID-19 as time passes and more likely to be due to another cause. However, there is no agreed cut-off after which COVID-19 can be excluded as a likely cause and sadly, we know that some people die from their infection many weeks later. Coronavirus can also contribute to a death without being the main or “underlying” cause.

The World Health Organization (WHO) recognises this complexity and states that:

A COVID-19 death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 disease (e.g. trauma).
This definition therefore requires a clinical assessment of each case.

For several months, the COVID-19 Data Dashboard has been reporting, for England, all deaths in people who have a positive test. This a robust measure as it uses the fact of a positive test and the fact of death to derive the number reported. However, it is only an approximation of the number of people who die from COVID-19 because other causes of death are included and some people who die from COVID-19 never had a positive test. It was decided to adopt this measure in April in order to be sure not to underestimate the number of COVID-19 related deaths. It was always intended to review the approach as the pandemic progressed.

The countries of the UK have been using slightly different methods. Scotland, for example, has only been counting deaths within 28 days of a positive test so that deaths from COVID-19 beyond 28 days are not included.

Subsequent reporting of the cause of death​

In the UK, COVID-19 deaths should be identified as such on death certificates, recorded by a registered medical practitioner. Provisional data on numbers of certified deaths from COVID-19 have been reported weekly by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) since 31 March 2020. However, there is an inevitable delay in reporting and publishing deaths based on death certification – for example, the most recent publication available at the time of writing reports deaths to week ending 31 July 2020.

Calculating the excess death rate​

Another approach to assessing the impact of COVID-19 is to calculate the excess death rate. This method compares the total number of deaths in a week to the average expected from previous years. This is an excellent method, but it also takes some time for the results to be available.

How does PHE identify deaths in people who have tested positive?​

In England, we have collated the details of every person who has had a laboratory-confirmed positive COVID-19 result at any point since the start of the pandemic. This will be a very valuable resource for tracking the impact of COVID-19 on the health of those affected.

We actively look at four sources to identify the death of any of these people should it occur. These are:

  • deaths occurring in hospitals, notified to NHS England by NHS trusts using the COVID-19 Patient Notification System
  • deaths with a confirmed COVID-19 test, notified to PHE Health Protection Teams during outbreak management (primarily in non-hospital settings) and recorded in an electronic reporting system
  • all people with a laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 test identified to have died through tracing against NHS records
  • ONS death registrations which can be linked to a laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 test

Does this mean you have overcounted deaths from COVID-19 in England?​

The total number of deaths reported in the daily numbers is less than the total number of deaths registered with COVID-19 on the death certificate, so the numbers reported have not generally been an over estimate. However, in recent weeks the numbers of deaths in people who have tested positive have become substantially greater than the numbers of deaths subsequently registered as COVID-19 deaths by the ONS, which is why we are now changing our approach to reporting deaths.

What did the review look at?​

Our review considered epidemiological evidence to see how likely it was that COVID-19 was a contributory factor to a death at different points in time after a positive test. We examined all 41,598 deaths in confirmed cases of COVID-19 reported up to 3 August 2020 and found that:

  • 88% of deaths occurred within 28 days of a positive COVID-19 test and 96% occurred within 60 days or had COVID-19 on the death certificate
  • of those who died 29 to 60 days after their positive test, COVID-19 was included on the death certificate for 64%
  • 2,295 (54%) of the 4,219 deaths excluded by a 28-day time limit had COVID-19 on the death certificate
  • overall 91% of deaths reported by PHE in confirmed cases up to 3 August had COVID-19 on the death certificate

What is changing?​

Two new deaths indicators will now be used by all four nations in the UK to provide a full picture of both recent trends and the longer-term burden of the disease.

The additional indicators which will be used to calculate daily death figures are:

  • the number of deaths in people with COVID-19 that occur within 28 days of a first positive laboratory-confirmed test. This is intended to provide a headline indicator of the immediate impact of recent epidemic activity. Deaths that occur more than 28 days after a positive test will not be included in this count.
  • the number of deaths that occur within 60 days of a first positive test. Deaths that occur after 60 days will also be added to this figure if COVID-19 appears on the death certificate. This will provide a more complete measure of the burden of the disease over time.
Using these new measures, the total number of deaths in people with laboratory-confirmed infection is reduced by 5,377 if only deaths within 28-day of a test are included, and by 1,668 if including only deaths within 60 days or at any time with COVID-19 mentioned on the death certificate.

This approach has been peer reviewed by external statistical experts.

What do other countries do?​

The WHO recommendation is to report on death certification, which England will continue to do through the ONS. For daily reported death figures, there is no international consensus on methods.

Why do the public health figures differ from the ONS numbers?​

PHE has been counting all deaths in people who have laboratory-confirmed infection – this is technically robust because it does not require a judgement to be made about cause of death. ONS reports deaths where a doctor suspects COVID-19 as a cause – these data include a clinical assessment as recommended by WHO but are subject to variation in clinical judgement as to the cause of death.

These are two different measures with different strengths and weaknesses. The PHE data series is also available daily, making it more useful for real-time surveillance, whereas the ONS survey only appears once a week and is delayed.
 

DB

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How are they now signing it off? In the earlier part of the year wasn't it just on the say-so of one doctor, without even a requirement for carrying out tests (i.e. with the obvious likelihood of cases where other respiratory illnesses are mistaken for covid).
 

notlob.divad

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Could ther be some pragmatism. I.e. car crash and murder victims who were covid positive not being included? Although I imagine that would barely dent the figures.

Apologies if this discussion seems to trivalise death and what is happening however I feel it is important to discuss as rightly or wrong deaths are now freely bandied as mere numbers on a screen and are used to justify all sorts of positions (on both sides).
How do you prove it wasn't caused by Covid or at least it wasn't a contributing factor? Even if it was a car crash or a fire?
Who is to say they didn't pass out at the wheel, or fail to get out of the building in time because covid was effecting their breathing ability.
 

Yew

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How do you prove it wasn't caused by Covid or at least it wasn't a contributing factor? Even if it was a car crash or a fire?
Who is to say they didn't pass out at the wheel, or fail to get out of the building in time because covid was effecting their breathing ability.
Here we go again with the inverse null hypothesis.
 

UP13

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In which case people dying in fires could count towards obesity related death figures as they couldn't run out the building in time.
 

Domh245

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Because it's largely accurate, and allows for timely reporting as opposed to using the ONS/PHE numbers based on death certificates. For every "had a positive test then got hit by a bus" there'll be another "fought covid for 30 days before passing away" so on balance it's there or there abouts

The 'goldest' standard IMO comes from PHE's dashboard using the CEBM method to determine where covid was the underlying cause of death, ie the cases where the person caught covid which directly led to their death (I'd be interested to hear anyone argue that someone dying of pneumonia after suffering covid shouldn't count as a covid death - it's pretty obvious that one caused the other which led to the death...), but this has got quite a significant lag to it, which is not very helpful. 28 days is a sufficiently reliable indicator that it can be used to determine trends and general ballpark figures.

As a comparison, here's the weekly numbers announced by the government with a +1 week offset (England only) vs the ONS registered numbers (E&W so a bit higher than it should be in a fair comparison) vs the calculated Covid as underlying cause of death (England only)
1608745802837.png

As you can see, there is no particular "swelling" of figures, unless you really want to try arguing that around 300 out of 2500 deaths (difference red to yellow) being 'incidental' should be enough to change our strategy?
 

Class 317

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This ons report has a good analysis of deaths caused by Covid and those where a person had Covid but the underlying cause of death was something else. It covers January to August 2020.

Reading the figures this suggest s the vast majority of deaths are caused by Covid not with Covid.

Also compares Covid to flu and pneumonia deaths over the same period and the 5 year average 2015 to 2019.
 

DB

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This ons report has a good analysis of deaths caused by Covid and those where a person had Covid but the underlying cause of death was something else. It covers January to August 2020.

Reading the figures this suggest s the vast majority of deaths are caused by Covid not with Covid.

Also compares Covid to flu and pneumonia deaths over the same period and the 5 year average 2015 to 2019.

What it doesn't do though is given any indication of life expectancy - e.g. someone might have actually died of Covid, but already have terminal cancer and be expected to die within a month.
 

Mugby

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I often wonder why this very question is never asked by the press at any of the Downing Street briefings, are the questions vetted beforehand perhaps?
 

Yew

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I often wonder why this very question is never asked by the press at any of the Downing Street briefings, are the questions vetted beforehand perhaps?
If you ask Boris difficult questions, you don't get invited back!
 

Bantamzen

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This ons report has a good analysis of deaths caused by Covid and those where a person had Covid but the underlying cause of death was something else. It covers January to August 2020.

Reading the figures this suggest s the vast majority of deaths are caused by Covid not with Covid.

Also compares Covid to flu and pneumonia deaths over the same period and the 5 year average 2015 to 2019.
There was actually a far more in depth report from the ONS that didn't just focus on Covid vs Influenza as this one does. That gave far greater insight into both the demographics of those that died, but also a much more in depth analysis into the overall health condition of those people. I'll see if I can dig it out.
 

island

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I often wonder why this very question is never asked by the press at any of the Downing Street briefings, are the questions vetted beforehand perhaps?
Press questions aren’t but the opening questions from the public are.

Press asking too many awkward questions find themselves no longer given access to the sessions.
 

PeterY

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I often wonder why this very question is never asked by the press at any of the Downing Street briefings, are the questions vetted beforehand perhaps?
Yes I'm also sure that questions are vetted. I'm Boris only tells us what he wants us to know.
 

Bantamzen

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Press questions aren’t but the opening questions from the public are.

Press asking too many awkward questions find themselves no longer given access to the sessions.
Is this actually the case? Because if so it is deeply concerning.
 
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