Friend wrongly had ticket taken from him

[table38]

So you can make multiple breaks!

Surely the Leeds/Stalybridge "Rail Ale Trail" relies on multiple breaks of journey, otherwise the guards would spend all day filling in TIRs

 

[455driver]

Surely the Leeds/Stalybridge "Rail Ale Trail" relies on multiple breaks of journey, otherwise the guards would spend all day filling in TIRs

Never thought of that!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

For clarity, can we be quite certain that the following is no more than the person opinion of island (from his reading of a document) and has no basis in Law nor in any of the Conditions as interpreted n Law?

I disagree. Condition 16 is specifically worded. "You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station" means "You may start your journey at any intermediate station. You may end your journey at any intermediate station. You may break and resume your journey at any intermediate station." You are reading in a separability of the last two items, that you may break your journey at an intermediate station and resume it at a different one, but such a term is not present. While you may break your journey at an intermediate station, as written you must resume it at the same one. If the authors of the NRCoC wished to permit resuming elsewhere, then "break" and "resume" would have been separated by commas, rather than "and".

I ask, because the section I have quoted, is most easily read as a personal opinion of an analysis of a 'Condition' taken right out of context. I'm unable to find any other way of reading it. Specifically, I'd be interested to know if there is any reason to believe that this personal opinion might have any bearing on an actual passenger, such as the OP.

I am mindful of the asymmetry in the Contract for rail travel: that the Railway Companies have an obligation to convey the passenger, but the passenger has no obligation to travel. Within that context of the Contract, I struggle to find any authority which might be consistent with the analysis above; and if it is just a personal opinion taken out of context, then it might be helpful to understand why the opinion is presented in response to the OP's enquiry.

At the risk of repeating myself (and of encouraging Pumbaa to re-quote something already stated), it would be helpful if the OP could tell us about the difference between the 2 traveller's tickets which led to one being accepted by the automated barrier, and the other not (and not other peoples' speculation of possible reasons).

 

[cuccir]

At the risk of repeating myself (and of encouraging Pumbaa to re-quote something already stated), it would be helpful if the OP could tell us about the difference between the 2 traveller's tickets which led to one being accepted by the automated barrier, and the other not (and not other peoples' speculation of possible reasons).

While I generally try and bite my tongue and not respond to things like this, I'm not sure why you feel the need to put down another poster's attempts to be helpful? Pumbaa reminded you that Chapeltom had already responded to a request from you for further information about the tickets.

We both held the return portion of a Blackpool North to Disley Off Peak Day Return with a 16-25 railcard

This was reponse to your first question. If you still consider this information to be inadequate, perhaps it would be helpful to suggest why, rather than just to repeat the question? I agree that on further prompting and reflection Chapeltom may be able to point to some additional differences in the tickets that he originally overlooked, but if this is what you're looking for then just ask for it rather than making snide remarks.

I agree with you in that I wonder if there's more to be looked into in confirming that the tickets were actually identical (can Chapeltom be sure his friend hadn't previously used the ticket?). But I felt that your comment referring to another poster's attempt to help forward the discussion was uncalled for.

 

[northwichcat]

We both held the return portion of a Blackpool North to Disley Off Peak Day Return with a 16-25 railcard. My ticket worked, I went straight through, my friend told me the barriers weren't having it and spat it out

The only two variables for why a barrier would accept one and reject another would be:

1. Did you both put your tickets through the automated barriers at Blackpool North?

2. Are you 100% sure that you inserted the return part of your ticket in to the barrier at Oxford Road or is it possible you put a different ticket in that was accepted?

 

[jkdd77]

Having read the numerous posts on this thread, it remains my view that a passenger who breaks their journey at intermediate station "B" and resumes the journey at intermediate station "C" has "broken their journey" at one intermediate station" and "resumed their journey" at another intermediate station.

Accordingly, I believe that the journey has been broken and resumed, as per both the literal wording (in referring to "any intermediate station" rather than "the same intermediate station"), and the underlying intent of NRCoC Condition 16.

What would not be permitted on an A to D point-to-point ticket, of course, is for the passenger, having travelled from A to B and then from C to D, to then subsequently return to B and attempt to travel from B to C under the authority of the same ticket.

In the alternative, perhaps the passenger might be said to have made two separate journeys on the authority of the one A to D ticket, (given that the ticket permits BoJ), having legitimately "stopped short" to finish one journey at B and then legitimately "started short" on a second, separate journey at C.

I again note that Condition 30, which provides that BoJ is permitted on season tickets, expressly define the said BoJ rights with reference to Condition 16.

If it is neither a break of journey nor (re)"starting short", then what exactly is it, and how does it fit into the NRCoC and the ticket conditions (assuming that such conditions permit BoJ)?

Anyway, I don't suppose that either the OP or his/her friend was fortunate enough to see any error code flash up when the friend's ticket was inserted into the barrier? If so, then members of the forum might be able to "translate" the code into an explanation as to why the ticket was rejected.

 

[Chapeltom]

Sorry for confusing people. The Disley to Blackpool North OUT portion was swallowed at BPN. We were using the return coming back from a day in Blackpool. I was typing on my phone at the time so of course I made the odd typo in my initial post.

My friend never told the gateline assistant we were resuming the journey at Manchester Picc, the only person who knew we'd be resuming at MAN was me, I didn't even tell my friend where we would be resuming the journey. My friend simply told the chap we were breaking our journey and mentioned nothing/was asked nothing about where the journey would be resumed.

My friend had no other tickets on him and neither did I.

 

[jon0844]

Could it be as simple as the magstrip on the other ticket being corrupted? Thus the error number would have been useful to check (by the gateline staff) to determine the reason?

In my experience they rarely seem to check and just assume a 'seek assistance' beep means invalid ticket - and that can immediately lead them to jump to (the wrong) conclusions. Ask anyone with a FCC carnet ticket that doesn't work on the first attempt, who can then be accused of having tampered with the ticket and potentially be reported for fraud.

I've had problems on a season ticket where you can always break your journey, but some stations along the way won't accept the ticket at all. This invariably means having a delay to get out (and back in) but I just came to accept it. Of course, I was never likely to get any hassle as I don't think any member of railstaff would disallow break of journey on a season!

 

[northwichcat]

In my experience they rarely seem to check and just assume a 'seek assistance' beep means invalid ticket - and that can immediately lead them to jump to (the wrong) conclusions.

I once used a Merseytravel day ticket (on NR stock) through the automated barrier to enter Merseyrail at Lime Street, then exited at James St a few minutes later but my ticket wouldn't let me exit via the automated barrier but I was allowed through the manual barrier. I can guess the issue here was the automated barriers don't let you exit that quickly to prevent two people trying to use the same ticket but for a journey involving a short hops between two busy London stations where tickets are valid for one return journey I can see them jumping to the wrong conclusion in the same situation.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, it can be set to between 15 or even 30 minutes at some stations to prevent passbacks.

That was another problem for me when I had a season that did work the gates at a station further up the line. Quite often I'd take a slow train there, get off to get breakfast at Subway/McDonald's/Sainsbury's and go back to get a faster train.. but I'd not be allowed back in!

While the gates are staffed, at this station the staff could still wander off to another set of gates and be hard to call back. I always expected the idea was to stop a ticket literally being used and passed back to exit/enter twice.. yet I guess the software can't tell which way the gate is set to work, and so can't accept a valid ticket (with no usage restrictions) going out and then back in - thus with no actual passing back.

 

[island]

I am sorry to the readers of this thread for causing confusion and not starting a new thread to discuss the vagaries of the condition 16, and to anyone I have offended.

 

[A60K]

The only two variables for why a barrier would accept one and reject another would be:

1. Did you both put your tickets through the automated barriers at Blackpool North?

2. Are you 100% sure that you inserted the return part of your ticket in to the barrier at Oxford Road or is it possible you put a different ticket in that was accepted?

3. Where the ticket has been kept - next to something that interferes with the data on the magnetic stripe.

 

[jb]

I am sorry to the readers of this thread for causing confusion and not starting a new thread to discuss the vagaries of the condition 16, and to anyone I have offended.

I seriously hope you're being sarcastic.

 

[island]

You hope in vain.

 

[jb]

Well then let me just say that anyone who feels offended by - or in need of apology for - elements of an Internet discussion of the finer technical points of a set of railway ticketing regulations, is a very very strange individual.