Friend wrongly had ticket taken from him

[Chapeltom]

Hi all

Around an hour ago, 20:05 time I exited Manchester Oxford Road station with a friend. My Blackpool North to Disley ticket WORKED in the barriers, we were simply breaking our journey. My friend's WOULD NOT. This resulted in the chap at MCO barriers taking his ticket off him after convincing him it was not valid, I had expected no problems and heard the chap/my friend talking, I thought they'd been no problem.

My friend didn't tell me about it at the time but mentioned it as we entered Manchester Picc to resume our journey. Understandably knowing this I am absolutely furious as he had to purchase a new ticket.

Is there any chance I could successfully complain to Northern Rail about this? Had I known at the time I'd had argued on my friends behalf his ticket was valid as the barriers accepted mine and I know BoJ on a return journey is absolutely fine. The money is not the point, but its the principle this chap on the barrier has incorrectly "stolen" my friends ticket, he has deemed its invalid and allowed him through the barriers anyway.

Does my friend have to take this on the chin or do we have grounds to complain?

Thanks

Tom

 

[yorkie]

Yes. I am happy to proof read a letter of complaint.

Do you have any more information about what was said at the gateline between the two parties concerned?

Was the argument simply over whether or not break of journey was permitted?

 

[cuccir]

I presume you can vouch for your friend's truthfulness? IE Did you purchase your tickets at the same time? So you know he hadn't used it previously?

Presuming your friend was telling the truth, then yes, complain! Particularly if you/he still have the relevant receipts...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As I'm sure you know, rail tickets are the Rail Company's property, so there can be no sense in which it was "stolen" as you put it. As for whether it was 'wrongly' retained by the Inspector or not, depends on the Inspector's belief that it was not valid for the journey taken; apparently you believe that the Inspector DID say that it was not vaild, in which case, it would be correct to retain it (and perhaps take other action such as to sell a new ticket).

Perhaps you disagree with the Inspector's assessment. Before anyone else could add their own opinion, it would be appropriate to provide as much information as possible - at least as much information as was available to the Inspector.

 

[Chapeltom]

As I'm sure you know, rail tickets are the Rail Company's property, so there can be no sense in which it was "stolen" as you put it. As for whether it was 'wrongly' retained by the Inspector or not, depends on the Inspector's belief that it was not valid for the journey taken; apparently you believe that the Inspector DID say that it was not vaild, in which case, it would be correct to retain it (and perhaps take other action such as to sell a new ticket).

Perhaps you disagree with the Inspector's assessment. Before anyone else could add their own opinion, it would be appropriate to provide as much information as possible - at least as much information as was available to the Inspector.

We both held the return portion of a Blackpool North to Disley Off Peak Day Return with a 16-25 railcard. My ticket worked, I went straight through, my friend told me the barriers weren't having it and spat it out, so went to the available barrier staff, which was 1 man by the wide gate. My friend said he was breaking his journey and the chap was not having any of it, he was also told by my friend that he said I'd held exactly the same ticket and had got through the barriers. I cannot in anyway see how he held an invalid ticket as I exactly the same ticket and BoJ on an Off Peak Day Return is perfectly legitimately. The ticket had not been tampered with in any way and was bought this morning. Unfortunately being a lot less clued up with me on ticketing matters, he had no choice but to accept the chap's judgement. I know I'd have stood up for myself and argued why I was right, my friend was not in anyway confrontional (I know for a fact he was not as he is not the kind to argue!).

I said "stolen", yes an incorrect word to use. I just feel really angered with myself I did not move from my position, the other side of the barriers to help him out. £2.90 is nothing to him, not to me either but feel really as if "he's been had" for simply not being not as clued up as anyone with even a decent knowledge of tickets.

Anything else you need to know please ask. Its a matter of principle for me and I'm unhappy its happened to a very good mate of mine.

 

[furlong]

This resulted in the chap at MCO barriers taking his ticket off him after convincing him it was not valid,

Was a receipt provided to your friend, as required if a ticket is withdrawn under a belief that it is not valid? (Conditions of carriage, paragraph 20.)

 

[185]

Was an issue last week of G4S taking tickets, however the gates at MCO are (well, were recently) Northern's own gateline employees.

 

[island]

This is going to be very controversial, but I think the inspector may have been right (albeit for the wrong reasons). It is not, I think, a valid use of the ticket to get off at Manchester O Rd and later recommence a journey at Manchester Pic on the same ticket. The NRCoC gives you the right to break and resume your journey, start it late, and finish it early, but not to miss out a bit in the middle. I am not aware of Manchester O Rd to Manchester Pic being a walking interchange.

Did the gateline assistant do anything else other than retain the ticket? Surely if he felt it was not valid, he should have requested your friend to purchase a new ticket, or issued some other paperwork such as a zero excess.

Very late edit to add: the above is expressly my opinion. It is not advice. It may be wrong. It probably is wrong. Please don't rely on it.

 

[transportphoto]

Arguably though, haven't they broken their journey at 'Manchester Stations' and therefore are resuming their journey from the same location?

TP

 

[island]

That's tenuous.

 

[jkdd77]

This is going to be very controversial, but I think the inspector may have been right (albeit for the wrong reasons). It is not, I think, a valid use of the ticket to get off at Manchester O Rd and later recommence a journey at Manchester Pic on the same ticket. The NRCoC gives you the right to break and resume your journey, start it late, and finish it early, but not to miss out a bit in the middle. I am not aware of Manchester O Rd to Manchester Pic being a walking interchange.

I strongly disagree with this interpretation. A journey which permits BoJ may be broken at one intermediate station and resumed at a later intermediate station along the line of route- one may "miss out" stations along the way.

 

[jb]

This is going to be very controversial, but I think the inspector may have been right (albeit for the wrong reasons). It is not, I think, a valid use of the ticket to get off at Manchester O Rd and later recommence a journey at Manchester Pic on the same ticket. The NRCoC gives you the right to break and resume your journey, start it late, and finish it early, but not to miss out a bit in the middle. I am not aware of Manchester O Rd to Manchester Pic being a walking interchange.

Did the gateline assistant do anything else other than retain the ticket? Surely if he felt it was not valid, he should have requested your friend to purchase a new ticket, or issued some other paperwork such as a zero excess.

Surely it doesn't matter even if your interpretation is correct... or at least it depends on exactly what was said between the passenger and staff member at the gateline. At the point of the ticket being retained there was simply a BoJ and nothing regarding resumption.

Even if your interpretation is correct, surely the staff member can do nothing more than tell the passenger they must return to Oxford Road to resume. There appears to be no grounds for retaining the ticket based on what we know.

 

[island]

I strongly disagree with this interpretation. A journey which permits BoJ may be broken at one intermediate station and resumed at a later intermediate station along the line of route- one may "miss out" stations along the way.

Please quote the section of the NRCoC or other part of the contractual documentation that supports this assertion.

 

[John @ home]

It is not, I think, a valid use of the ticket to get off at Manchester O Rd and later recommence a journey at Manchester Pic on the same ticket.

I don't agree. ATOC have confirmed in writing to Clive D W Feather that "there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations".

Qu.9: Can a journey involve a walk between stations?

Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this).

http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn2.html

 

[jkdd77]

Please quote the section of the NRCoC or other part of the contractual documentation that supports this assertion.

Condition 16 states that a passenger may start, break and resume, or end, their journey at any intermediate station. Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road are both intermediate stations along the line of route.

Although Condition 30 is not directly relevant to conventional tickets, its express wording that season tickets include the right to "break and resume...your journey, as described in Condition 16" [i.e. Condition 30 refers directly back to Condition 16 in order to determine its own interpretation] further supports the idea that passengers may resume a broken journey at a later intermediate station, in line with the validity of season tickets.

If a season ticket permits "missing stations out" when carrying out a BoJ on a journey, which it does, then it is logical that a conventional point-to-point ticket that permits BoJ also permits resuming a journey at a later station.

If the ticket was not valid for BoJ, then it ought to have been excessed, as per the plain wording of Condition 16, rather than withdrawn, and the difficulty in determining the excess fare further supports the concept that BoJ includes such a right.

Referring to John @ Home's post, if a ticket permits walking between intermediate stations even where it is not strictly necessary, and permits resumption at the second intermediate station, then logically it also ought to include any alternative method of transport between the two intermediate stations at the passenger's own expense.

If your interpretation was correct, it would mean, for example, that journeys involving a cross-London journey could not be broken in London unless the passenger returned to their 'original' London terminus to continue the broken journey.

Finally, it is generally accepted that any ambiguity ought to be resolved in favour of the passenger.

 

[island]

I disagree. Condition 16 is specifically worded. "You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station" means "You may start your journey at any intermediate station. You may end your journey at any intermediate station. You may break and resume your journey at any intermediate station." You are reading in a separability of the last two items, that you may break your journey at an intermediate station and resume it at a different one, but such a term is not present. While you may break your journey at an intermediate station, as written you must resume it at the same one. If the authors of the NRCoC wished to permit resuming elsewhere, then "break" and "resume" would have been separated by commas, rather than "and".

Comparisons with season tickets are irrelevant as season tickets specifically allow you to make any sub-journey. Single and return tickets do not (but other than advance tickets, they do allow you to make a specified selection of sub-journeys).

Following your line of argument with the above two points in mind leads to the conclusion that a single ticket from Manchester Stns to Birmingham can be used to travel from Deansgate G-MEX to Manchester Pic, Manchester O Rd to Macclesfield, Stockport to Stoke, and then Macclesfield to Birmingham, as you are breaking your journey at Macclesfield and resuming it at Stockport, and so on. But this is clearly absurd.

The question of ATOC guidance on walking between stations is not without merit, but ultimately it is questionable whether it is written with this situation in mind or whether it is enforceable as against a train company.

And finally you wheel out the old chestnut of resolving ambiguity in favour of the customer, which has no bearing or relevance on what may ultimately happen if a passenger is found to be travelling in breach of the terms of his ticket, i.e. prosecution. I challenge that it is "generally accepted"; certainly, on this forum, any general acceptance is due only to those who say it is generally accepted winning an argument by attrition.

All of the above should, however, be tempered by saying that the likelihood of a passenger ever being given trouble for missing out part of their journey (except on an advance ticket) is negligible, and the likelihood of it ever becoming the matter of a legal action, much less an action resolved adversely for the passenger, is even more so. Continuing this debate would be taking us into angels and pinheads territory

I agree as mentioned above with the central point of the topic, however, and reiterate that appropriate actions for the staff member would have been to pass the ticket (reminding the passenger that he must resume his journey from Manchester O Rd, if the matter came up), charge for a new one (which would presumably later have been refunded) or withdraw the ticket and complete a TIR, issuing the passenger with a zero fare ticket to complete his journey.

 

[jkdd77]

Comparisons with season tickets are irrelevant as season tickets specifically allow you to make any sub-journey. Single and return tickets do not (but other than advance tickets, they do allow you to make a specified selection of sub-journeys).

Following your line of argument with the above two points in mind leads to the conclusion that a single ticket from Manchester Stns to Birmingham can be used to travel from Deansgate G-MEX to Manchester Pic, Manchester O Rd to Macclesfield, Stockport to Stoke, and then Macclesfield to Birmingham, as you are breaking your journey at Macclesfield and resuming it at Stockport, and so on. But this is clearly absurd.

I don't agree that this is absurd at all; on the contrary, I would say that it is both logical and clearly permitted, subject to all other ticket conditions being complied with, since a ticket that permits BoJ allows unlimited BoJ at intermediate stations along the line of route subject to not doubling back. In my view, it is no different if a passenger had made additional journeys in order to 'fill in the gaps' in the example you gave (for example, also making a separate journey from Stoke- Macclesfield),

The reason I referred to season tickets is because Condition 30 on season tickets specifically permits and defines BoJ subject to and with reference to Condition 16, so if an A to D season ticket permits this form of 'staggered BoJ', (which it does) then a A to D point-to-point ticket logically must also do so (albeit that it would not normally permit doubling back, but that is another matter entirely). If your interpretation was correct, season ticket holders would not be able to travel A -> B, then C -> D on the same ticket.

I agree that the use of a comma between the words "break" and "resume" in the relevant clause of Condition 16 would have removed any doubt; nonetheless, I believe that a passenger who breaks at one intermediate station and resumes at a subsequent intermediate station can reasonably be said to have "broken and resumed" their journey within the meaning (and intent) of Condition 16.

If an A to D ticket permits BoJ and therefore permits travel from C to D, then the valditty of a C to D surely cannot be invalidiated solely by virtue of prior travel from A to B along the line of route; especially given that A to C travel would certainly not have done so. Forcing a passenger to return from C to B in order to continue to use their valid ticket is, in my view, absurd.

This is particularly so in the case of a journey involving a neccessary walk between stations ["B" and "C"], for which a neccessary walk is, of course, not considered a BoJ in any case.

Are to deduce that a passenger is obliged to make that very walk from B to C immediately, and is not permitted to resume at the subsequent station following an extended or unnecessary delay (e.g. stopping off at a shop somewhere), unless they have previously returned to B to make the walk to C again for its own sake? Again, I would say that would be absurd.

For what it is worth, I have often made similar journeys involving extended BoJ in both Manchester and London, resuming at 'later' intermediate stations without hassle, although I accept that this does not determine validity; nor indeed does the propensity of barrier staff to 'accept' a ticket.

Since the OP's friend has already run into problems, and this is more than a hypothetical argument, I would say that he or she ought to take the position that the ticket permitted the travel he or she took, complain on that basis, and see what response he or she gets.

 

[jb]

Since the OP's friend has already run into problems, and this is more than a hypothetical argument, I would say that he or she ought to take the position that the ticket permitted the travel he or she took, complain on that basis, and see what response he or she gets.

I'd be prepared to bet that all this would be miles over the head of the member of gateline staff concerned and that they thought BoJ was not permitted (wrong) and that the appropriate action therefore was to withdraw the ticket (wrong), "letting the OP's friend off, this one time" or such similar nonsense.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'd be prepared to bet that all this would be miles over the head of the member of gateline staff concerned and that they thought BoJ was not permitted . . . . . .

Very possibly.

Sadly, Chapeltom has not been back to clarify precisely what tickets were held.
I was curious to know why the automatic barrier reader rejected one of them and not the other, suggesting the possibility that both tickets might not have been identical.

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes he has, post 5:

We both held the return portion of a Blackpool North to Disley Off Peak Day Return with a 16-25 railcard. My ticket worked, I went straight through, my friend told me the barriers weren't having it and spat it out, so went to the available barrier staff, which was 1 man by the wide gate.

 

[Draconian]

I'd be prepared to bet that all this would be miles over the head of the member of gateline staff concerned and that they thought BoJ was not permitted (wrong) and that the appropriate action therefore was to withdraw the ticket (wrong), "letting the OP's friend off, this one time" or such similar nonsense.

Do gateline staff have the authority to withdraw tickets ? I thought they were just in attendance to ensure the gates work safely. Was it a member of Revenue staff manning the gates at that time ?

 

[island]

I don't agree that this is absurd at all; on the contrary, I would say that it is both logical and clearly permitted, subject to all other ticket conditions being complied with, since a ticket that permits BoJ allows unlimited BoJ at intermediate stations along the line of route subject to not doubling back. In my view, it is no different if a passenger had made additional journeys in order to 'fill in the gaps' in the example you gave (for example, also making a separate journey from Stoke- Macclesfield).

So you're saying it isn't absurd to travel twice over a part of the route with one ticket? The passenger has travelled from Stockport to Stoke twice over.

 

[455driver]

since a ticket that permits BoJ allows unlimited BoJ at intermediate stations along the line of route subject to not doubling back.

Does it?
Are you sure?

I recently posted about a long distance journey (Devon to Scotland) and intimated about breaks of journey and quite a few people (including RJ who knows a thing or 2 about tickets) said that multiple breaks of journey were not permitted.

 

[jb]

I recently posted about a long distance journey (Devon to Scotland) and intimated about breaks of journey and quite a few people (including RJ who knows a thing or 2 about tickets) said that multiple breaks of journey were not permitted.

IIRC RJ suggested that you might have trouble with (errant) staff if trying to carry out (legitimate) multiple breaks of journey.

 

[island]

Do gateline staff have the authority to withdraw tickets ? I thought they were just in attendance to ensure the gates work safely. Was it a member of Revenue staff manning the gates at that time ?

Yes they do.

Does it?
Are you sure?

I recently posted about a long distance journey (Devon to Scotland) and intimated about breaks of journey and quite a few people (including RJ who knows a thing or 2 about tickets) said that multiple breaks of journey were not permitted.

Yes it does and yes I am. RJ stated that while one is entitled to make multiple breaks of journey, it can cause one to get into difficulty when dealing with ill-informed members of staff.

 

[FenMan]

Coming back to the subject at hand, there appear to be 2 issues.

The OP is complaining about a member of the gateline staff at MCO who withdrew a ticket on the return leg of a Blackpool North to Disley journey, when a BOJ for that ticket is permitted at MCO or anywhere else en route from Disley to Blackpool North. So far, so clear.

If the original poster actually meant the return leg of a Disley to Blackpool North journey i.e. the other way round, then disregard the next paragraph.

The OP then goes on to say that they left the route at MCO and resumed at MAN, which meant they had to travel again to MCO to get to Blackpool North. This would not be permitted as a leg of the journey has been covered twice. Hmm .... this doesn't stack up.

On Island's interpretation of the NRCoC, with which I disagree, I would suggest the lawyer drafting the terms used the phrase "any intermediate station" instead of "an intermediate station" for a reason.

 

[455driver]

Yes it does and yes I am. RJ stated that while one is entitled to make multiple breaks of journey, it can cause one to get into difficulty when dealing with ill-informed members of staff.

So you can make multiple breaks!

I have got it now!
I think.

 

[embers25]

So you can make multiple breaks!

I have got it now!
I think.

Muiltiple breaks are 100% fine (as long as the ticket possessed allows break of journey in the first place) BUT many guards/barrier staff refuse to accept this and so problems often ensue. Particularly if your ticket is marked more than once with different date markings. SWT West of England guards particularly seem to dislike multiple breaks and with every new guard they'll mark in even bigger writing the new date making the ticket practically unreadable.

 

[yorkie]

If the original poster actually meant the return leg of a Disley to Blackpool North journey i.e. the other way round, then disregard the next paragraph.

He did mean the return portion of a Disley to Blackpool North ticket (ie, the journey was from Blackpool to Disley), as he is based in the Peak District and was having a day in Blackpool. So yes, there was a typo by Chapeltom.

(Things can get confusing when talking about return portions, and another thing I hate is when people put the destination before the origin - I have to stop and think what the journey is in my mind, e.g. I had the return portion of a ticket to X from Y - it's effectively a double negative, so the journey is X to Y but you have to think about it!! argh! )

 

[John @ home]

The OP then goes on to say that they left the route at MCO and resumed at MAN, which meant they had to travel again to MCO to get to Blackpool North. This would not be permitted as a leg of the journey has been covered twice.

We have now established that no part of the journey was "covered twice", that is, there was no doubling back. But in these particular circumstances, I do not agree that doubling back would not be permitted. Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Oxford Road are both members of Manchester Group, so the Group Stations rule applies.

GROUP STATIONS

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf