Frequency of Checking Railcard Onboard Trains

[Solent&Wessex]

I always ask for all railcards (the most surprised to be asked are DSB and NSE railcards), will usually charge up unless there are some really good explanations.

The number of DSB who say they are never asked are quite large.

The odds of ending up in court for not having a railcard or a ticket when asked )or an adult on a child ticket) is about the same as being hit by lightening whilst clutching a winning lottery ticket.

Strange this topic came up and I posted earlier. I think it is SNR that are most unlikely to have their card out, seem most surprised to be asked to show it, and often get angry / agitated when asked.

In fact I have recent experience. Today in fact! I came across an elderly couple with SNR discounted tickets, but with no SNR railcards. I advised they would need to pay an extra fare but they immediately came extremely agitated and at one point the male was shouting loudly at me and saying things like "can't you see how old I am" "I obviously had one to buy the tickets" etc. He then told me I was a jobsworth and would be reported as I should show discretion and compassion to older people. They had apparently had their tickets checked 3 times on their outward journey, and so far in this return journey had had their ticket checked once. They claimed that not once had anyone asked to see their railcard, and as such it was me who was in the wrong and I should let them off like everyone else had done. They refused to pay an extra fare and as I couldn't issue a UPFN due to the journey they were doing I will be reporting the matter. It's not always your stereotypical troublesome passenger who gives you grief!

 

[Edgemaster]

I was once quite surprised to have my Y-P railcard checked when travelling on FCC with an Oyster, the handheld reader obviously flagged up that it was linked.

 

[SS4]

I must add that I've never had my railcard checked when using PlusBus

 

[Greenback]

Strange this topic came up and I posted earlier. I think it is SNR that are most unlikely to have their card out, seem most surprised to be asked to show it, and often get angry / agitated when asked.

In fact I have recent experience. Today in fact! I came across an elderly couple with SNR discounted tickets, but with no SNR railcards. I advised they would need to pay an extra fare but they immediately came extremely agitated and at one point the male was shouting loudly at me and saying things like "can't you see how old I am" "I obviously had one to buy the tickets" etc. He then told me I was a jobsworth and would be reported as I should show discretion and compassion to older people. They had apparently had their tickets checked 3 times on their outward journey, and so far in this return journey had had their ticket checked once. They claimed that not once had anyone asked to see their railcard, and as such it was me who was in the wrong and I should let them off like everyone else had done. They refused to pay an extra fare and as I couldn't issue a UPFN due to the journey they were doing I will be reporting the matter. It's not always your stereotypical troublesome passenger who gives you grief!

There are just as many older people that have become caught up with the 'Me, me, me' nature of our society. They think it's their right not to pay full whack because they are old, and it wouldn't surprise me to discover that the people who do this are some of the most affluent seniors.

Again, it's all too symptomatic of the loss of respect for the rules, and for those who are supposed to police them.

 

[WestCoast]

I must add that I've never had my railcard checked when using PlusBus

Are you surprised? Correct me If I'm wrong, but I don't think they are trained on rail ticketing.

I had a bus driver who barked "that's a train ticket" at me a few weeks ago. I won't name the firm, but it began with F. I "reminded" him about "plusbus".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are just as many older people that have become caught up with the 'Me, me, me' nature of our society. They think it's their right not to pay full whack because they are old, and it wouldn't surprise me to discover that the people who do this are some of the most affluent seniors.

Again, it's all too symptomatic of the loss of respect for the rules, and for those who are supposed to police them.

Regarding the rules on the railways, I think the lack of consistency plays a role, it's a major problem with the UK railways IMO, you've got conflicting attitudes and levels of discretion everywhere. When one member of staff doesn't bother with the railcard, people get it into their head that they don't need it.

 

[Greenback]

Regarding the rules on the railways, I think the lack of consistency plays a role, it's a major problem with the UK railways IMO, you've got conflicting attitudes and levels of discretion everywhere. When one member of staff doesn't bother with the railcard, people get it into their head that they don't need it.

I think that is true. Personally, I don't like to see people who say they forgot their railcard being treated with discretion. It does reinforce the idea that you don't actually need to carry one, and makes it much harder forstaff trying to do their jobs correctly.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I think that is true. Personally, I don't like to see people who say they forgot their railcard being treated with discretion. It does reinforce the idea that you don't actually need to carry one, and makes it much harder forstaff trying to do their jobs correctly.

Just like me today!

 

[cyclebytrain]

I find that SET high speed OBMs check railcards (quite a lot) more than anyone else, but conversely also seem to remember that I have on a lot more. Typical conversation goes something along the lines of "have you got your railcard with that" <looks and sees who it is> "never mind, I saw it the other day" (although my personal favourite is still "oh sorry mate, I've seen it hundreds of times -you'd think I'd remember by now").

By contrast there are a large number of times when I've been handed back a neatly stamped bike reservation and unmarked ticket, let alone asking about a railcard when travelling on a certain TOC

 

[snail]

I came across an elderly couple with SNR discounted tickets, but with no SNR railcards. I advised they would need to pay an extra fare but they immediately came extremely agitated and at one point the male was shouting loudly at me and saying things like "can't you see how old I am" "I obviously had one to buy the tickets" etc.

...and no doubt grumbled loudly at being asked to pay £28 for the privilege. If they ever realised they needed to actually buy one.

When I had a YP card I don't think I was ever asked for it at a barrier. For my own peace of mind I always kept the tickets in the RC wallet, so it was simple enough to flash the card when showing the tickets. I occasionally had it checked closely, but not very often. I did get issued an SNR ticket by a booking office more than once, shows how much attention they paid to it!

Which raises a slightly different question for our friendly grippers - what would you do if someone with a YP card presented an SNR ticket they had been issued in error (but hadn't noticed because the fare is the same)?

 

[island]

I remember it coming up on another thread and the general consensus was that they'd pass it unless suspicious e.g. of ticket transfer.

 

[142094]

It was just a few weeks ago, I observed this. The guards do also seem to be lenient when the ticket office is single manned, which is fair in my opinion, since the clerks occasionally do disappear from the window for whatever reason.

Well, at least not up here it doesn't. Most services are either half-hourly or hourly so plenty of time to buy a ticket. Might be more lenient in Leeds or Manchester but not up here.

 

[WestCoast]

Well, at least not up here it doesn't. Most services are either half-hourly or hourly so plenty of time to buy a ticket. Might be more lenient in Leeds or Manchester but not up here.

East and West are run as almost two separate TOCs! There are some comments from a company guard on this matter, posted on another thread. It seems that quite a few guards do indeed offer discounts, but with advice about the ticket office..

 

[Tracky]

Lots of NatWest cards expired on 31/07/2011. I have had 9 so far this month.

 

[causton]

Only ever had my railcard checked once - on London Midland from WFJ to Northampton...

Not on East Coast (they didn't notice I was sitting in the seat opposite my reserved one, as a lady was sitting in mine either!) nor FCC RPIs nor buying tickets from a ticket office!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I came across an elderly couple with SNR discounted tickets, but with no SNR railcards.
. . . .
I should show discretion and compassion to older people.
. . . .
They refused to pay an extra fare . . . .

I was a little surprised to read that report (though I'm sure I shouldn't be that surprised having experienced some similar responses from those older than myself).

I will accept that those elderly folks who have worked hard for their community/ nation/ world affairs deserve respect and support (though I'd hope they'd been rewarded already!). But I struggle to understand why age of itself, should accrue such respect and support.
More worryingly, I find myself unable to find any rationale which provides automatic 'discretion and compassion' towards the elderly which must be applied by all corporate bodies at all times. (Do they receive discounted petrol, postage, potatoes, plumbimg, penalty bank charges etc. on account of their age?)

Anyway. I'm inspired and so will now go away to study how to become a grumpy old person and to profit from it. I'll let you all know what benefits I receive (but don't hold your breath waiting).

Returning to topic, I'm sure the many and varied practical demands on Guards and the range of responses available to them don't lend themselves to a consistent response to every situation, and I'd guess that NOT asking to see a valid RC will often drop low down the priorities; that should never be a criticism (by passengers or Management). However, if and when a passenger IS asked to produce a RC then I cannot see any reason other than lack of time for not considering the ticket to be invalid (even though I know that one day it will inevitably be me who cannot find the thing when I need it!). An excess to the full fare would be appreciated (I mainly travel expensive long distance), but on local / regional / commuting services where tickets are under £20 or so, then a replacement Anytime seems absolutely appropriate.

 

[bb21]

... one finger to count the one I usually see out on-train, and the same finger to count how often I see him every month

I thought they worked in teams of two.

- we get told on NO account to delay a train over a ticketing issue, even to chuck them off, let alone to call BTP. Management grudgingly say if it is a safety issue then we can delay the train to have them removed, but in my experience, it usually results in "advice" that it was my fault for causing the situation to escalate.

What needs to happen, is when cases go to court, for compensation to be levied at the person equivalent to the total consequential delay minutes that the company had to pay out, maybe then multiplied by a factor of 2. That'll teach 'em!

 

[LondonJohn]

You wouldn't be the delightful @johnonamonday, would you?


I'd like to point out that the South West Trains staff who tweet, do so when they are off duty or on a break .

On this journey in question, I don't know that he was tweeting, he was doing something on an iphone as he walked through the carriage and only came out of the rear drivers cab to operate the doors, but I can assure you that a lot of staff are tweeting whilst working.

As an aside and back on topic, on a journey from London Waterloo to Southampton central yesterday there was no ticket check. On a journey from Southampton Central to Woolston my ticket was checked but not the railcard.

Maybe there needs to be a fixed penalty of the difference between fares 2 or 3 times over or the difference PLUS a £10 fee if you don't produce a railcard with say a refund once or twice in the case of forgotten railcards, This would fairly penalise fare evaders whilst not penalising the genuine people that have forgotten their railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe there needs to be a fixed penalty of the difference between fares 2 or 3 times over or the difference PLUS a £10 fee if you don't produce a railcard with say a refund once or twice in the case of forgotten railcards, This would fairly penalise fare evaders whilst not penalising the genuine people that have forgotten their railcard.

That's all very well, but it doesn't exactly reinforce the fact that railcards have to be carried on all rail journeys. Providing refunds as standard only suggests that leaving it at home is somehow okay, and might make people think that the excess or new ticket demanded is somehow unenforceable. People would accuse the railways of sharp practice if they quietly offer refunds of (what is perceived to be) a penalty as soon as they are challenged.

It is an unbelievably simple system. Carry the railcard to show you're entitled to the discount. Otherwise, you're not entitled and you'll need to buy the proper ticket. There is already a system in place to weed out the fraudsters from the forgetful. Check out the "Threatened With Court" thread by Olleh to see what the railway industry can do.

 

[LondonJohn]

That's all very well, but it doesn't exactly reinforce the fact that railcards have to be carried on all rail journeys. Providing refunds as standard only suggests that leaving it at home is somehow okay, and might make people think that the excess or new ticket demanded is somehow unenforceable. People would accuse the railways of sharp practice if they quietly offer refunds of (what is perceived to be) a penalty as soon as they are challenged.

It is an unbelievably simple system. Carry the railcard to show you're entitled to the discount. Otherwise, you're not entitled and you'll need to buy the proper ticket. There is already a system in place to weed out the fraudsters from the forgetful. Check out the "Threatened With Court" thread by Olleh to see what the railway industry can do.

Oh I have read the threatened with court thread from Olleh that is his own fault but as we have discovered there is no consistency.

In my opinion, its no different to a season ticket holder leaving their season ticket at home as a railcard holder forgetting their railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

Oh I have read the threatened with court thread from Olleh that is his own fault but as we have discovered there is no consistency.

In my opinion, its no different to a season ticket holder leaving their season ticket at home as a railcard holder forgetting their railcard.

No, there is no consistency, and I completely see your point. But it is a fact that travelling without a valid ticket is a criminal offence, and that no intent is actually necessary (intending to defraud is a different and much more serious crime with higher penalties). If you were to treat everyone in the same way, you might argue that everyone should be treated as a criminal - or you might just let everyone off. Neither is in the best interests of the passenger, or the railway in my opinion.

It is very important that staff can use their discretion to apply or waive restrictions as they see fit. I don't think the railway would be a better place without this discretion.

I do get your point about forgotten season ticket refunds, but people who forget their season tickets still have to buy a single or return at their earliest opportunity. People boarding without relevant railcards are slightly different as they are usually challenged by staff and are then unable to prove they have a valid ticket - but if applicable, the unused, discounted ticket can be refunded later on, subject to any administration fees. Which is almost what you suggest, I guess.

 

[snail]

In my opinion, its no different to a season ticket holder leaving their season ticket at home as a railcard holder forgetting their railcard.

No, it's the equivalent of a season ticket holder showing their ticket without a photocard. No photocard = invalid ticket.

If there was a central record of railcards then a concession similar to the season ticket one could be applied, ie refund of a full-price ticket purchased by the RC holder before travelling, perhaps with an admin fee to discourage relatively low value refunds. But I would concede nothing if travel is commenced without the railcard or an alternative ticket. If someone is capable of buying/carrying a travel ticket then they should be capable of carrying the railcard with it.

 

[Mark_re]

What would happen in Germany if you forgot your Bahncard?

 

[island]

You'd get a €40 fine.

 

[WestCoast]

What would happen in Germany if you forgot your Bahncard?

Since you asked:

Basically on trains where you can't purchase tickets onboard (metro/shorter-distance) it's a 40 euros fine, since those are compulsory tickets and travel documents zones. On trains where you can purchase onboard (longer-distance):

If the passenger is unable to present a valid BahnCard during ticket inspection on board a train on which tickets are sold, he/she is obliged to pay, over and above the fare already paid with BahnCard discount, a sum of 25 %
(BahnCard 25) or 50 % (BahnCard 50) of the on-board price of the ticket exclusive of BahnCard discount. If the passenger submits the relevant tickets and a BahnCard 25/BahnCard 50 which was valid at the time of the inspection within 14 days of the inspection, the surcharge paid on board will be
refunded minus a processing fee of EUR 7.

You can't buy a discounted ticket without showing one either, you enter it into the system online. You can secure it against e-tickets, so it's a whole new ticket if you forget it in that situation, since you've broken the T&Cs of that ticket type (i.e. you've not proven the ticket is yours).

 

[Flamingo]

Lots of NatWest cards expired on 31/07/2011. I have had 9 so far this month.

3 today - in 40 minutes. Ching ching
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought they worked in teams of two.

Not necessary. They usually like to, and it is dressed up as "safety", but it really seems to be about keeping each other company.

What needs to happen, is when cases go to court, for compensation to be levied at the person equivalent to the total consequential delay minutes that the company had to pay out, maybe then multiplied by a factor of 2. That'll teach 'em!

Nice idea - assuming they get to court. Would never happen.

 

[penaltyfines]

I was once quite surprised to have my Y-P railcard checked when travelling on FCC with an Oyster, the handheld reader obviously flagged up that it was linked.

I wonder how likely a prosecution would be to succeed if you didn't have it, I doubt many people carry it once it's been loaded onto the Oyster card!

 

[LondonJohn]

Well I returned from Woolston - Southampton Central - London Waterloo today and had no ticket check on either train. Don't know what SWT are playing at but its not ticket checking let alone railcards.

 

[wintonian]

I have my disabled railcard checked on average about twice a year - I travel on average twice a week often on more than one train on the same day.

 

[Intermodal]

On the topic of DSBs - I just had mine checked an hour ago now for the second time in 1.5 years by a Virgin TM!