FreightLocate Demo Service now available

[FreightLocate]

This is just a quick note to let anyone interested know that the FreightLocate Demo service is now available at http://www.freightlocate.co.uk

The demo is running from the live database but will only show trains and schedules for the current day and the day before.

Please read the service notes on the demo page as it will explain more about how it works and please use the contact form to provide feedback or use this thread and we will endeavour to answer any queries.

Thank you,

FreightLocate

 

[yorkie]

If legal, it's really good (although £50 a year is a lot of money!), I like being able to look up railtours, that's brilliant!

However the data has to come from somewhere. The only logical conclusion I can come up with is that it is downloaded from TRUST, if so then I would expect Network Rail to threaten legal action.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I suspect that too with the 'previous location' and 'next location' columns.

 

[yorkie]

Here's a screenshot of an example schedule for a train:

That has to come from TRUST, surely?

No-one can tell me someone has typed that in for all freight/special trains in the country.

Expect this to be short-lived...!!!!!

 

[Aictos]

I will say one thing though, Kings Cross PSB has a knack of regulating freight/Passenger ECS how they see fit ie East Coast's own 5A01 which runs Bounds Green to Peterborough via Kings Cross to form the 0615 from Peterborogh to booked to use the Hertford route between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage but a lot of the time is diverted via the Welwyn route even if there's nothing in it's way.

Looks good though,

 

[ushawk]

I think it looks good, but £50 is a lot for a year.

 

[Hydro]

Looks incredibly similar to our issued Special Trains Notices, which are certainly "inside track", so if someone is disseminating this direct from the system then expect questions to be asked.

 

[The Planner]

Can only be a download from TRUST, all the locations in the drop downs are TIPLOC locations that are set up for the WTT. Can't imagine this is legitimately reproduced.

 

[MCR247]

Network Rail are looking into this....

 

[Donny Dave]

There is already a big crackdown happening, with people and/or signal boxes that did have access do Genius Mobile having it suddenly cut off ....

Make of that what you will ....

 

[Jonny]

Can only be a download from TRUST, all the locations in the drop downs are TIPLOC locations that are set up for the WTT. Can't imagine this is legitimately reproduced.

Care to explain the acronyms for non-railway people reading this, please?

Thanks in advance

 

[MCR247]

Trust is the system for train times kind of thing for staff. When you see timings for special/charters, most of them are copied out of TRUST.

WTT - working timetable

 

[Adamw5433]

A quick google latter....

From http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Train+allocation+systems

TRUST (Train Running System TOPS) monitors train movements for punctuality.

The system was introduced by BR in the mid 1980s, by privatisation it had national coverage and became the source of information for the performance regime, where train operators get fined or compensated for delays.

The system works by taking a copy of each train's schedule (the train's planned journey details) and creating a parallel record against which the actual departure, arrival and passing times at designated locations are recorded.

The actual train movement events are generated automatically on routes with Track Circuit Block signalling but requires manual input at other locations.

By comparing the actual events against the plan, TRUST is able to detect when a train has lost time between two locations, and automatically prompts staff for an explanation of the reason behind this loss of time.

These delays are then allocated to incidents and categorised for performance analysis.

Adam.

 

[Ferret]

There is already a big crackdown happening, with people and/or signal boxes that did have access do Genius Mobile having it suddenly cut off ....

Make of that what you will ....

Just like I warned on wnxx then! And like I said on there, if Freightlocate isn't based on stolen data and instead is legitimate, how about you tell us exactly who you are Mr Freightlocate?

 

[GearJammer]

Care to explain the acronyms for non-railway people reading this, please?

Thanks in advance

Im also failing to see what the harm is in making this information public?

 

[Ferret]

Im also failing to see what the harm is in making this information public?

Carbon copy of wnxx thread coming right up!

 

[rail-britain]

how about you tell us exactly who you are Mr Freightlocate?

They may have permission to publish limited information, plus pay a licence fee to Network Rail
http://webwhois.nic.uk/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=freightlocate.co.uk
Note that the published information is currently yesterday and today (not live)

Equally, there are restrictions on publishing information on some freight trains operated by DRS (for obvious reasons), and this appears to have been overlooked...
As an example, search 6M95
This should NOT be visible to the public and is restricted

 

[Ferret]

They may have permission to publish limited information, plus pay a licence fee to Network Rail
http://webwhois.nic.uk/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=freightlocate.co.uk

1. That's highly unlikely.
2. In what way would you call Freightlocate 'limited information'? It's a full schedule for every freight train in the country!!!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

1. That's highly unlikely.
2. In what way would you call Freightlocate 'limited information'? It's a full schedule for every freight train in the country!!!

If Freightmaster, a respected producer of timetables for 16 years, was refused access to TRUST even with the support of GBRf, then there's no way in hell these cowboys have a bona fide licence to all the data!

 

[87015]

Equally, there are restrictions on publishing information on some freight trains operated by DRS (for obvious reasons), and this appears to have been overlooked...
As an example, search 6M95
This should NOT be visible to the public and is restricted

Where is this rule told to people with access to trust/genius/whatever?

 

[Ferret]

Where is this rule told to people with access to trust/genius/whatever?

Hmmm, I wasn't aware of a specific rule applying to those trains, but it's pretty standard for there to be a rule stating that dissemination of *any* information to be against the terms of use of the software.

 

[rail-britain]

1. That's highly unlikely.
2. In what way would you call Freightlocate 'limited information'? It's a full schedule for every freight train in the country!!!

I applied for such a licence (as FreightMaster publications already have)
However the terms are very restrictive, the licence is not cheap either
The main restriction was that live information could not be published
Also, as mentioned above, certain "classified" train information could not be published, this included the DRS Nuclear Flask trains

The Freightlocate information is limited in that they are currently only publishing the current schedules only, from today and yesterday
It would appear they plan to update this to a weekly listing, but it would be based on the previous week (again, not live)

To publish the advance timetables (as Freightmaster publications do) would require a specific contract from Network Rail allowing this, and is quite different
This is quite possible and from the tarrif of charges, this looks to be what is being considered
Again though, there would be no live information

For anyone with Freightmaster publications, you will find 6M95 has been removed
I suspect Network Rail provide this list of headcodes that need to be removed, once the contract is agreed

 

[ralphchadkirk]

rail-britain, Mark Rawlinson of Freightmaster has stated himself that he has no contract with Network Rail for data. He gets his data from observation and things posted by others.
He also said he continues to publish DRS Nuke trains, subject to only calling them Flask trains and something else I can't remember off the top of my head.

 

[nedchester]

Is divulging details of nuclear flask trains restricted/illegal?

Remember when this was published:

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/MultimediaFiles/Live/FullReport/7848.pdf

Greenpeace were not taken to court........

 

[mumrar]

It's all so obviously suspiciously familiar looking, I'm not going anywhere near it, particularly as we have yet to see an answer from the OP after 5 days so far.

In answer to the 'what harm does making this info public' remark, remember when those idiots halted a coal train heading for Drax? What do you think these tree-hugging fools would do with nuclear flask schedules? They aren't sensible people as demonstrated by them tying the coal train to a bridge with ropes and whooping like howler monkeys in celebration. Really? A loco that can haul 2000+ tonnes of coal at 60mph and you think some rope will stop it? Hahaha.

 

[nedchester]

It's all so obviously suspiciously familiar looking, I'm not going anywhere near it, particularly as we have yet to see an answer from the OP after 5 days so far.

In answer to the 'what harm does making this info public' remark, remember when those idiots halted a coal train heading for Drax? What do you think these tree-hugging fools would do with nuclear flask schedules? They aren't sensible people as demonstrated by them tying the coal train to a bridge with ropes and whooping like howler monkeys in celebration. Really? A loco that can haul 2000+ tonnes of coal at 60mph and you think some rope will stop it? Hahaha.

Come on get real. Anyone with an ounce of sense can get the schedules by observation or by using someone with inside knowledge can find/work out when these trains run.

 

[laird]

The flask trains are in the Working Time Tables or certainly were in the past, those documents are not classified.
Greenpeace don't appear to have been challenged for a breach of the official secrets act so I would take it that the civilian flask train schedules are not protectively marked (classified).
If the timings were classified then its unlikely they would appear in TRUST at all since it probably isn't approved to hold anything like PROTECT, RESTRICTED etc.

Thinking about what we can actually see from the two websites mentioned:
Freightmaster aren't publishing anything which is not easily gathered in the public anyway, they simply observe as any member of the public could and record what past them and when from a given vantage point.
Freightlocate may be using a feed of some sort from a server somewhere, its no more risky in that sense since it just has more observation points than the existing Freightmaster publication.

One thing that does concern me is the immediate jump to concerns over safety for the flask train, presumably DRS have performed a risk assessment which tells them that it is not necessary to hide the existence or timings of the flask trains yet each time freight timings comes up as a subject there seems to be a level of questioning of that assesment arises from the rail enthusiast community, if there is concern then it would be right to bring it to the concern to the appropriate group - it certainly doesn't seem a reason to knock either publication both of which presumably would be happy to remove the content once issued with a DA-notice or similar request.

 

[ANDYS]

This all looks so familiar.

I have recently started following the rail forums after many years away from anything rail orientated. My major hobby is aircraft and aviation forums have had the same kind of questions about security. It is now possible to track aircraft live all over the world. As I sit here typing I can hear (not see as it is raining again!) an aircraft above my head. I know that it is a British Airways Boeing 747 going to Vancouver at 35000ft and 400+ knots. Now some people will tell me that it is very dangerous knowing these things as terrorist Jo Bloggs might want to blow this plane out of the sky, but it is a little more difficult then that.

On the same line (no pun intended) I might sit next to the line at Carnforth knowing that a flask train is due at 10:00. Again, it is a little more difficult to stop it, grab the flask and run. I know that there are nasty people out there, there always have been and always will be (mores the pity), but we must not let paranoia get the better of us.

Onto whether Freightlocate is legitimate or not, I do not know. But from the messages on this forum I suggest that there is a market for up to date information, if not live information. As I sit here I can see that an East Midlands train is due in the next few minutes at my local station, I can see that the Vancouver flight is heading out over the Irish Sea but I cannot tell you if any freight trains have been through the station or if any are due. Why, what is so different about freight? If I go to the National Railway Museum I can sit and watch their screens displaying live action all day and ‘see’ the trains coming from miles away. I love this stuff and would love to see it on my screen at home. Surely there is a market for this info.

Anyway, keep up the discussions. I always like to see what people are thinking.

Andy S

 

[The Planner]

There is still a very grey area over whether WTT data should be available under FOI. I know there was one person who went to great lengths (just to prove a point I think....) to get the Eureka WTT and East Coast, not NR, relented. I don't know the full reasons why NR aren't subject to FOI requests.

 

[rail-britain]

There is still a very grey area over whether WTT data should be available under FOI
I don't know the full reasons why NR aren't subject to FOI requests

Network Rail is a private Limited Company, and so therefore FOI requests do not apply
It would be subject to requests under the DPA

FOI requests should be submitted to DfT or TS