Freight vs passenger incidents

[43066]

Are Freight Trains fitted with a ''Blackbox'' type of device or in-cab recording CCTV?

Yes they are.

I'm comparing the situation as a ''White Van Drivers'' can to be professional drivers it's that when fewer eyes are around chances of getting caught are less.

It’s a ridiculous comparison which sheds absolutely no light on anything. Driving trains has nothing in common with driving road vehicles, other than the speedometer being in mph.

 

[baz962]

All trains are fitted with OTMR equipment, which does a black box function yes. It is a condition of operating on the mainline.

White van drivers are typically not professional drivers in the sense that they are not earning money through their driving (like taxi drivers). They are driving from one site of employment to another, so time driving is time not earning.

Thanks to all those who have shared their insights from driving trains, and thanks to whoever provided the stats!

You are a little wrong on that last bit. I'm a train driver and ex white van man and I made plenty of money through my driving. I delivered parcels self employed for many different companies. DHL , FedEx , Business post, white arrow , APC , concord couriers and another now defunct company.

 

[dannydm1]

As per forward facing cameras, none of the fright trains I have driven have had cameras installed. Not really a thing on freight. As said by someone else, we have data recorder (black box)

Passenger trains seem to all have cameras fitted in them

 

[Runningaround]

All trains are fitted with OTMR equipment, which does a black box function yes. It is a condition of operating on the mainline.

White van drivers are typically not professional drivers in the sense that they are not earning money through their driving (like taxi drivers). They are driving from one site of employment to another, so time driving is time not earning.

Thanks to all those who have shared their insights from driving trains, and thanks to whoever provided the stats!

The Delivery drivers who also will can be in white vans are.

 

[Falcon1200]

Could being on your own, (no staff on board travelling passenger etc) CCTV or other onboard and at unsociable hours when fewer managers and rail staff are around play a factor as getting caught pushing your luck is less likely?

What kind of safety incident do you believe freight train drivers try to get away with on today's railway ?

 

[notadriver]

Are Freight Trains fitted with a ''Blackbox'' type of device or in-cab recording CCTV? All the stats are obviously those known about I'm thinking if you are being watched by devices does this cut down chances.
And are Passenger train drivers more aware that their could be anyone on that train that could be a manager, even passengers can now use phones with speedometers it only takes someone uploading a clip onto youtube showing your speed with time and date unwittingly shown passing a station to drop the driver in it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2022 ==


I'm comparing the situation as a ''White Van Drivers'' can to be professional drivers it's that when fewer eyes are around chances of getting caught are less.

A typical taxi / white van driver will speed at night unless their vehicle has been artificially limited to stop that from happening. It’s as you say a ‘less eyes at night‘ etc mentality.

A professional train driver does no such thing whether it’s 4am or 4pm. There’s a reason we are paid a lot of money and have to pass very hard psychometric tests.

 

[TPO]

What was going on at Devon and Cornwall Railways?

Small operator, very few miles

Yes, I don't do stats so I'd be interested to know what 56.07 means in plain English, 4 years at 0.00 and then another 3 years at 0.00 with this 56.07 in the middle?

As above. One occasion of (hypothetical example) passing a position light by a small amount looks horrendous due to very low mainline miles.

I think that's what you'd expect to see for a small operator - assuming their drivers, equipment and operations are comparable to others, most years they will have no SPADs at all; then if they're not doing very many train miles, then one SPAD will give a large number in the table. The value of 56.07 is about one SPAD every 18,000 miles. Whether they actually operated only 18,000 train miles that year and had one SPAD, or operated 1,800,000 train miles and had 100 SPADs, we can't tell from this table. It could be that in some years they have had contracts that were particularly challenging in the ways just listed by @dannydm1 - these would have more impact on the overall results for a small operator than for a large one

You've got it. Very low miles. Skews the stats.

Also note that not all SPADs pose the same risk. These are very basic stats, we drill into much more detail to gain better understanding of cause 8n the RSSB-led industry groups.

TPO

 

[Stigy]

I’d have thought passengers train drivers generally have more going on which could result in a SOL incident? (Door controls, stopping at stations etc). However I guess a lot of Freight incidents may result from working within possessions? Also, I don’t thing freight trains have DRA (someone may correct me of course). Another factor is TPWS overspeeds, as freight trains’ max speeds are often less than TPWS trigger speeds.

 

[4F89]

I’d have thought passengers train drivers generally have more going on which could result in a SOL incident? (Door controls, stopping at stations etc). However I guess a lot of Freight incidents may result from working within possessions? Also, I don’t thing freight trains have DRA (someone may correct me of course). Another factor is TPWS overspeeds, as freight trains’ max speeds are often less than TPWS trigger speeds.

Why would a freight train require DRA, which is primarily used in platforms, where freight only generally stops for relief, rather than passenger collection?

 

[Stigy]

Why would a freight train require DRA, which is primarily used in platforms, where freight only generally stops for relief, rather than passenger collection?

DRA although often used in platforms, is used for red signals in general (but regardless of what you’re stopped there for, it’s use is for the signal, not anything to do with the fact you’re picking up passengers). It’s mitigation against starting on a red signal regardless of where it is (mainline, platform or in a depot). I guess as a freight driver you’re likely to be sat in a passing loop staring at a red, or shunting around yards with many a stop board or GPL?

I guess the use of DRA has evolved over time, and the stop/start aspect of passenger trains probably warrants it more than freight.

 

[4F89]

DRA although often used in platforms, is used for red signals in general (but regardless of what you’re stopped there for, it’s use is for the signal, not anything to do with the fact you’re picking up passengers). It’s mitigation against starting on a red signal regardless of where it is (mainline, platform or in a depot). I guess as a freight driver you’re likely to be sat in a passing loop staring at a red, or shunting around yards with many a stop board or GPL?

I guess the use of DRA has evolved over time, and the stop/start aspect of passenger trains probably warrants it more than freight.

Yeah, if I'm looped then the signal is right in front of me, reverser in the middle and no need for me to do anything for a while, so I don't touch anything till it comes off anyway. No need to be reminded of something that u can see right there. It's not hiding round the corner off a yellow.

 

[Stigy]

Yeah, if I'm looped then the signal is right in front of me, reverser in the middle and no need for me to do anything for a while, so I don't touch anything till it comes off anyway. No need to be reminded of something that u can see right there. It's not hiding round the corner off a yellow.

As I said though, the DRA is to mitigate against any sort of SPAD. The fact that you won’t be going anywhere until the signal comes off of fair enough, but the DRA just adds an extra layer of protection. There’s numerous reasons why we set the DRA, and only a couple relate to stations. The others are as relevant to freight operations as they are passenger operations.

 

[ComUtoR]

A typical taxi / white van driver will speed at night unless their vehicle has been artificially limited to stop that from happening. It’s as you say a ‘less eyes at night‘ etc mentality.

How many 'White van Drivers' work at night ? I too was a 'White van Driver' I was pretty much speeding all day.

A professional train driver does no such thing whether it’s 4am or 4pm.

This I would question. While yes I would agree that speeding etc is not specifically limited to the time of day. There are circumstances where a Train Driver typically has more incidents.

Why would a freight train require DRA, which is primarily used in platforms, where freight only generally stops for relief, rather than passenger collection?

I thought the DRA was required by the Rule Book. Do Freight have a derrogation that they do not need to set the DRA at signals ?

 

[4F89]

How many 'White van Drivers' work at night ? I too was a 'White van Driver' I was pretty much speeding all day.



This I would question. While yes I would agree that speeding etc is not specifically limited to the time of day. There are circumstances where a Train Driver typically has more incidents.



I thought the DRA was required by the Rule Book. Do Freight have a derrogation that they do not need to set the DRA at signals ?

Don't have one in the first place to set, so can only assume so

 

[ComUtoR]

Wow. I must admit I'm kinda shocked but cheers for the info.

 

[4F89]

Wow. I must admit I'm kinda shocked but cheers for the info.

I think the difference comes from DOO too, im not waiting for station info, RA etc, its an automatic process for us. So we don't have any reason to stop except for the signal, and do not take instruction from anyone apart from the signal, so there is a much smaller chance of distraction from 2 buzz, paddle, whistles etc etc. I care only about the signal.

 

[Heaps92]

Hi all,

Something that’s baffled me a bit but does is seem mythical knowledge that fright drivers seem to have more spads, safety of line incidents compared to passenger drivers?
Is it due to lack of route knowledge/ rush of learning new routes or a case of not having consistency over a route?

A variety of people/ variations of wagons/ locos that cause drivers to sometimes forget things where’s some pax drivers will only drive 1/2 versions of traction?

Because freight drivers work more hours, have less sleep and no personal needs breaks. Also we run at cautionary aspects whereas hsts etc rarely see a red

 

[43066]

Wow. I must admit I'm kinda shocked but cheers for the info.

I think the difference comes from DOO too, im not waiting for station info, RA etc, its an automatic process for us. So we don't have any reason to stop except for the signal, and do not take instruction from anyone apart from the signal, so there is a much smaller chance of distraction from 2 buzz, paddle, whistles etc etc. I care only about the signal.

Also surprised by that and can only assume it’s deemed to be an unnecessary safety precaution for purely freight locos. I have it on very good authority that class 67s, which are used to haul both passenger and freight trains, are fitted with them.

 

[4F89]

Also surprised by that and can only assume it’s deemed to be an unnecessary safety precaution for purely freight locos. I have it on very good authority that class 67s, which are used to haul both passenger and freight trains, are fitted with them.

Well, mixed traffic locos will, the 68's etc etc will also have them. But for 66's, 70's in general, nope.