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Freight timetables/information

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YesToHS2

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Can anyone tell me where I can find detailed and accurate information on UK freight movements? I plan to write an article on the rise of rail freight in the UK but I need some examples of companies using rail and evidence of an increase.
 
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matt

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Can anyone tell me where I can find detailed and accurate information on UK freight movements? I plan to write an article on the rise of rail freight in the UK but I need some examples of companies using rail and evidence of an increase.

Whilst I don't know whether freight has increased or decreased (but I suspect a decrease) how can you write an article about the rise in railfreight before you know this is the case?
 

Soft Mick

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You can buy the Freightmaster books but to be honest, they're neither reliable or value for money.
As someone in the Freight side, its probably fair to say there has been a decrease, the work there is, cherry picked by subsidised FOCs. Not much new to the railways..
 

142094

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Past issues of Rail have shown that there has been a general decrease over the years, mainly due to less movements of the core freight such as coal and steel. For freight timetables you need to get a copy of Freightmaster.
 
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Old Timer

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Can anyone tell me where I can find detailed and accurate information on UK freight movements? I plan to write an article on the rise of rail freight in the UK but I need some examples of companies using rail and evidence of an increase.
Courtesy of Freightmaster

New*/reinstated Railfreight Traffic in 2010

1. Scrap from Exeter to Cardiff (DBS)
2. Scrap from Handsworth to Hull Docks (DBS)
4. Wine from Tilbury/Thamesport/Felixstowe to Bristol FLT (Freightliner)
5. Flyash from Drax power station to Aberthaw cement works (Freightliner)
6. Coal from Portland Burn to Ferrybridge (DBS)
7. Coke from Redcar to Port Talbot (DBS)
8. Coke/coal/ore from Redcar to Scunthorpe (DBS)
9. Timber from Ribblehead to Chirk (Colas)
10. Stone from Penmaenmawr to Guide Bridge (Freightliner)
11. Stone from Whatley to Tytherington (DBS)
12. Containerised marble from Italy to Bow Olympic (DBS)
13. Intermodal traffic from Southampton to Ditton (DBS)
14. Intermodal traffic from Pomezia(Italy) to Ditton (DBS)
15. Wood pulp from Sheerness to Blackburn (DRS)
16. Imported stone from Avonmouth to Angerstein (Freightliner)
17. Imported coal Portbury to Uskmouth power station (Freightliner)
18. Slag from Port Talbot to Chichester (Freightliner)
19. Biomass from Tyne Dock to Drax (GB Railfreight)
20. Coal duff from Blyth to Hunterston (DBS)
21. Petroleum products from Immingham to Cardiff Docks (DBS)
22. Boulders from Whatley Quarry to Minehead (DBS)
23. Intermodal traffic from Duisburg(Germany) to Trafford Park (DBS)
24. Ballast from Bardon Hill to Hinksey (DBS)
25. Pea gravel from Dagenham to Hinksey (DBS)
26. Ballast from Mountsorrel to Eastleigh (GB Railfreight)
27. Tinplate: Trostre to Tilbury & Birdport. (DBS)
28. Flour: Tilbury/Wentloog (DBS)
29. Empty containers/swapbodies: Ditton - Barking (DBS)
30. Lead blocks in containers/swapbodies: Barking - Pomezia (DBS)
31. Stone: Peak Forest - Luton (starting soon). DBS

* genuinely new to rail traffic, not including 'cherry picking'
existing railbourne flows from one company to another!


New Traffic expected to start in the next few months

- intermodal traffic from Lille to Daventry (Europorte/GBRf) driver training ongoing
- containerised cement from Oxwellmains (DRS) trials have run to Inverness/Viewpark

Coal traffic is not included above unless it is to or from a new mine or
power station for a particular company, or one which has been out of use
for more than 12 months...



....As someone in the Freight side, its probably fair to say there has been a decrease, the work there is, cherry picked by subsidised FOCs. Not much new to the railways..
Probably the most uninformed post here today, and especially surprising if, as you say you do, you work on the freight side

You can buy the Freightmaster books but to be honest, they're neither reliable or value for money. ..
The Freightmaster books are published four times per year, and for anyone interested in following freight they are invaluable. They show the flows and the WTT paths and are regularly updated through the Freightmaster forum.

Please will you explain then why they're neither reliable or value for money, because that has been far from my experience.

Personally if I were Mark at freightmaster I think I would be pretty hacked off by that comment.
 
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YesToHS2

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The WCML RUS makes it seem as if freight is on the rise again, mainly due to intermodal transport though. Although it is true to say bulk movements are in decline the surge in containerised transport has seen cargo swap from road to rail. Network rail also predict a 100% rise in freight movements by 2033. Something like 90% of all containers destined for the North West arrive at southern ports. It also appears as if more companies are returning to rail to try and appear to be more green.

As a whole it looks as if companies are looking at how they transport goods in general. A good example of this is the regular container service Tesco now uses from Liverpool to Manchester via the Manchester Ship canal. I'm not sure who operates the service but they have a fleet of barges capable of transporting over 100 containers. I know it's nothing to do with rail as such but it show a movement away from trucks to other forms of more efficient transport.

Whilst I don't know whether freight has increased or decreased (but I suspect a decrease) how can you write an article about the rise in railfreight before you know this is the case?
 

Soft Mick

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Well "Old Timer".

I bow down to the all knowing oracle that is yourself and best pal Freightmaster. Do you know how many of those services actually run and how many are just paths??!
And you find it "suprising" that I think otherwise....what, that I don't hold the same opinions as you?

Behave yourself Old Timer :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can anyone tell me where I can find detailed and accurate information on UK freight movements? I plan to write an article on the rise of rail freight in the UK but I need some examples of companies using rail and evidence of an increase.

So your best bet is statistics from the ORR, as deltic said. :)
 

6S83

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[/SIZE] Probably the most uninformed post here today, and especially surprising if, as you say you do, you work on the freight side

Try telling the hundreds of drivers and groundstaff who've been made redundant and relocated (I'm one of them) over the last 3 or so years and the ones facing the same at the moment that freight is increasing.
I'm with Soft Mick on this, he's right about traffic levels.
 

Freightmaster

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Well "Old Timer".

I bow down to the all knowing oracle that is yourself and best pal Freightmaster.
I don't normally bother responding to these sort of comments,
but I feel I have to reply to this - I only know "Old Timer" as
one of my (hundreds of) satisfied Freightmaster Online subscribers;
I'm not sure how you can legitimately pass judgement on the accuracy
of a service you don't even subscribe to in the first place?! :(


Do you know how many of those services actually run
and how many are just paths??!
As a matter of fact, I do!!

Any moron could 'copy and paste' a few lineups from TRUST and call the
result a freight timetable; but what makes Freightmaster Online different,
and what makes people happy to pay £80 a year to use it, is the fact that
I have spent the past 15 years tweaking and honing the 100+ timetables
so that they reflect as accuarately as possible which trains actually run
on which days and at what times.

Unfortunately, about 10% of freight trains (mainly coal, plus a few STP
stone workings) refuse to 'play ball', and are simply too unpredictable
to list in the tables, but that still leaves the remaining 90% of reliable
freight services which are listed, and will usually run within 15 minutes
of the 'average' passing times I provide.


In conclusion, publishing and updating Freightmaster (and more recently
Freightmaster Online) is my full time job - a job which I take great pride
in doing well, so I feel deeply offended when someone implies that the
Freightmaster timetables are cobbled together with no regard to which
trains are just 'paths' and which trains actually run.


However, I always welcome feedback (good or bad), so if you are interested,
I would be happy to send you a free copy of whichever FMonline timetable
covers your local area so can point out any errors which I may have overlooked?


sorry for rambling, :oops:

MARK RAWLINSON
 

Old Timer

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Soft Mick / 6S83
I gave you 30 examples of new or reinstated traffic. Presumably you disagree with this ? Maybe you suggest that the FOCs just organise freight paths for non-existant traffic ? You tell me.

Do I also detect the feel of EWS/DBS about you both ?

That being the case, as former Infrastructure man I expect both of you will be aware that most Infrastructure people have simply learnt to "live" with EWS/DBS and the attitude of many of their staff and management over the years. Every time someone else operates an engineering train we all knew at least it would (a) arrive when we needed it, (b) would have the correct wagons, (c) would not have been down "prioritised" by some yard shunter somewhere, and that when it did arrive at least in general the crew would be at least willing to help and not looking for reasons to screw down or bale out.

If EWS/DBS treated its "customers" like it did Infrastructure traffic then why would I not be surprised you were losing traffic ?

On one famous night, EWS unilaterally and without reference to anyone, decided to short form trains for five different worksites. The result was the decimation of five different track renewals sites.

Prior to baling out a little while back, I had one week of trying to unload LWR for a critical site, this is what happened.
Night 1 - No loco
Night 2 - No traincrew
Night 3 - Departed origin late and ran late. On arrival Driver was looking to manufacture any excuse to bale out and objected to Road Rail machines being used with the train :roll:
Night 4 - EWS managed to send the train to a yard that did not have any lighting apparantly, even though it wa sknow that the train would have to depart at night. The night Driver (same man as previous night) refused to walk to loco unless accompanied by a Network Rail MOM with a lamp. On arrival at site was generally difficult and clearly was not interested in assisting. The rail drop was cancelled when he complained about a (non-existant) fault with the radio.
Night 5 - Different train operated by another FOC. Totally different attitude and the train was duly unloaded.

Note this rail drop was to replace seriously defective rails as well as to drop of new LWR for a critical renewal. Had we not done this job we would have had a series of ESRs and highly disruptive line blockages.

According to the ORR rail freight has been in decline since 1992. Do you really believe that ?

I also note that the statistics suggest fatalities are reducing. This seems very much at odds with the feelings of the guys out there who hold very different views, and even a simple analysis of the national control logs sends a very different picture.

Still as they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Anyway as I have not been in the UK for a while I shall have to take your word for traffic decreasing but this seems to be at odds with the public statements of the the FOCs/Network Rail. Someone must be right and someone must be wrong unless people are confusing traffic flows and tonnage operating within those flows (which may well be the more pertinent measure)
 

GB

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It all depends what side of the fence you are looking from. I can understand the view form DBS staff that there must be a decline due to the amount of reduncies they are seeing, but from someone who works for another well known FOC I just don't see it.

The Port of Felixstowe are continuing to move record numbers and introduce on average 2 new flows per year. Both GBRF and FL have expanded at the port with most trains being fully booked most of the time. This alone indicates to me and increase atleast within the intermodal sector.

Coal is on the up and up aswell. The only real down turn in traffic GB have seen is infrastructue work.
 

Metroland

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Thanks for the interesting post Old Timer.

I think freight dipped over the recession, it also did for road freight, with some of the highest unemployment blackspots around Northampton and parts of central england were many large hauliers and distribution depots are located.

But freight always follows the economy anyway.

It's now on the up for road and rail.
 

6S83

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Soft Mick / 6S83
I gave you 30 examples of new or reinstated traffic. Presumably you disagree with this ? Maybe you suggest that the FOCs just organise freight paths for non-existant traffic ? You tell me.

Do I also detect the feel of EWS/DBS about you both ?

That being the case.....

According to the ORR rail freight has been in decline since 1992. Do you really believe that ?

Anyway as I have not been in the UK for a while I shall have to take your word for traffic decreasing but this seems to be at odds with the public statements of the the FOCs/Network Rail. Someone must be right and someone must be wrong unless people are confusing traffic flows and tonnage operating within those flows (which may well be the more pertinent measure)

Old Timer, interesting post and I can't argue about your experiences.
I'm not doubting those new flows, nor whether they run or not, but 30 new flows doesn't mean a net increase in traffic.

I do believe there has been a decline since 1992, the tonne/mile figures confuses the actual situation due to coal no longer being on the power stations doorstep, New Cumnock is a lot further from Cottam than Manton Colliery!
Immediately post privatisation there was big increase, but whether this made up for all the traffic lost in the previous 5 years is very debatable.
It's also true that EWS/DB has lost quite a bit of work to competitors, GB and FLIM seem to be the only one doing ok at the moment.
The others aren't doing too well.

As for the point about public statements from FOCs, they're hardly likely to trumpet lost contracts are they?;)

Maybe Freightmaster could put some imput in, he said he's been doing the freight timetables for 15 years, he'd have a broader knowledge systemwide than the rest of us.
 

MacCookie

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I do believe there has been a decline since 1992, the tonne/mile figures confuses the actual situation due to coal no longer being on the power stations doorstep, New Cumnock is a lot further from Cottam than Manton Colliery!

With regards to coal, there's almost half as much coal but travelling twice as far on average! (68Mt to 38Mt, 5.4bn t.km to 6.2bn t.km)

The DfT has detailed statistics tables for freight:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/freight/

Ewan
 

matt

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Although it appears from Old Timers post and others that railfreight is currently in the increase how do curret levels compare to say 20 years ago?
 

Soft Mick

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Old Timer. Its well known that FOC s have paths for non existant services. As for the anti DB rant which had nothing to do with much, yes. The DB drivers still have conditions to work to. No driving past the 11th hour, PNB between 3 and 5 hours etc. I used to work for them. And Freightmaster, youre right.. Any old muppet can get train timings off TRUST.......
 
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tbtc

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it appears from Old Timers post and others that railfreight is currently in the increase

It should also be pointed out that this is in a market for UK freight travel that has grown greatly. Rail freight may have grown, but I'd imagine the market share hasn't...
 

Saltleyman

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Do I also detect the feel of EWS/DBS about you both ?

That being the case, as former Infrastructure man I expect both of you will be aware that most Infrastructure people have simply learnt to "live" with EWS/DBS and the attitude of many of their staff and management over the years. Every time someone else operates an engineering train we all knew at least it would (a) arrive when we needed it, (b) would have the correct wagons, (c) would not have been down "prioritised" by some yard shunter somewhere, and that when it did arrive at least in general the crew would be at least willing to help and not looking for reasons to screw down or bale out.

Whilst I can appreciate your frustration with having to "work" with EWS/DBS staff may I remind you that I personally had to work for them (I had no choice being "ringfenced" to RfD at Saltley in 1994, and unfortunately being taken over by EWS in 1999)and can say without hesitation that when on "ballast/infracstructure" turns I would never have "screwed it down nor baled out" I took too much pride in my job, but there again I was an ex BR man and it certainly was not the way that Saltley men did things.So I assume the incident you referred to was not a Saltley crew ? I can honestly say that had I remained an employee of RfD or FLiner I certainly would have worked till my full retirement age and not taken early retirement in 2006(the best thing I have ever done)I can only say that I feel sorry for the poor souls stuck with EWS/DBS for the rest of their careers.The way that the company is run is incomprehensible to a true "railwayman " !
 

Old Timer

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A good friend of mine works for DBS (EWS) and I remember that back in the late 1990s and early part of the 2000s there were extraordinary long flows of coal traffic, especially, which simply criss-crossed the Country.

There were opposing coal flows, for example coal flows from Wales to Scotland/North, with import coal moving from Scotland down to Wales.

Now I would expect that this movement, which appears to have declined was probably one of the reasons why there is a perception that traffic is declining.

Soft Mick
Nobody is trying to force Drivers to work against their booked hours or not take their break. It is (was) the attitude of general non-coperativeness that was prevalent. I remember having a "warm" debate with a Driver because his attitude to having a go at EWS was to just be as difficult and as awkward as he could be on site. One of EWS favourite tricks was to insist that we booked the trains at 37 weeks out and then despite KNOWING they could not operate all the services the had ACCEPTED, they did not bother to tell anyone until a day or two before the weekend, insufficient time to allow for any alterations.

It was this type of issue that led to the move away from EWS, and lets be honest about it only for the fact that many of the wagons are owned by EWS the Infrastructure Contractors would have castrated EWS as an Infrastructure carrier, at least 10 years ago.

The comment (rant as you put it) relevant as EWS has lost traffic through both its Corporate actions/inactions/arrogance, as well as its staffs actions and attitudes. Whilst some has moved to other FOCs I have no doubt that some has gone to road never to return.

6S83
It may be that changes to traffic flows give that impression and maybe distort the figures.

For example if memory serves me right, there used to be a cross-channel car flow that ran to Wembley, from there it ran Wembley to Bescot, and then from there it ran Bescot to Scotland. If I am right, it now arrives in Newport by ship and runs direct to Scotland.

Again, assuming I am recalling facts correctly, that would give the impression of a severe loss of traffic when in fact the traffic is still there but flowing differently.

Infrastructure traffic flows have reduced partially due to the concentration of depots, but also due to Network Rail's attempts to reduce the costs of its Maintenance organisation. Having crowed long and loudly about saving money it has finally realised that has neither the capability nor the competence of the former IMCs to manage infrastructure maintenance, and thus renewals are being deferred as part of the manipulation of the figures.

The introduction of the HOTR trains inevitably has also had an impact on the number of trains running, as well as the move towards larger capacity wagons. None of this means the traffic has gone (within reason) but simply means that the same volumes are moving in fewer trains, again giving rise to perceptions that traffic has declined. That said it is definitely true that considerable renewals work has been cancelled by Network Rail but the comment is to be read against the previous and present volumes of stone and materials moving to renewals sites on a proportionate basis.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Whilst I can appreciate your frustration with having to "work" with EWS/DBS staff may I remind you that I personally had to work for them (I had no choice being "ringfenced" to RfD at Saltley in 1994, and unfortunately being taken over by EWS in 1999)and can say without hesitation that when on "ballast/infracstructure" turns I would never have "screwed it down nor baled out" I took too much pride in my job, but there again I was an ex BR man and it certainly was not the way that Saltley men did things.So I assume the incident you referred to was not a Saltley crew ? I can honestlt y say that had I remained an employee of RfD or FLiner I certainly would have worked till my full retirement age and not taken early retirement in 2006(the best thing I have ever done)I can only say that I feel sorry for the poor souls stuck with EWS/DBS for the rest of their careers.The way that the company is run is incomprehensible to a true "railwayman " !
Hello Old Chap, long time no speak. I assume you and family are keeping well ?

The depot I speak of would not even have been allowed to gaze at Saltley in days gone by, and its inmates would have been required to leave the room in the presence of Saltley men :lol:

Whilst I did meet some good EWS/DBS Drivers, they were sadly outnumbered by those who to us always appeared to be interested in just turning up on site and baling out or simply wanting to sit in the cab and wait for relief whilst doing the minimum and making our life difficult.

I recall a big high profile job where the trains were operated by F/Liner. When it became obvious that one of the Drivers did not have the requisite route knowledge to relieve his booked train, which was working on a converging route, the Driver on the other (who did sign the converging route) swapped over thus enabling us to keep the job going. I think a couple also worked up towards their maximum hours and we organised taxis to their homes for them in consequence. I doubt that we would have had such co-operation from others.
 
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Metroland

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With regards to coal, there's almost half as much coal but travelling twice as far on average! (68Mt to 38Mt, 5.4bn t.km to 6.2bn t.km)

The DfT has detailed statistics tables for freight:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/freight/

Ewan

indeed, all down to the 90s dash for gas, the closing of many coal fired power stations and coal imports [the uk is now a net importer of energy]. The railway get paid for goods carried over a distance anyway.
 

Old Timer

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indeed, all down to the 90s dash for gas, the closing of many coal fired power stations and coal imports [the uk is now a net importer of energy]. The railway get paid for goods carried over a distance anyway.
Yes...a perfect example of shameful Political expedience at a cost to the Country and the environment long-term, which has allowed those who made the decision to avoid implementing the longer term (controversial) solution, and thereby given them an opportunity to vent their spite from Opposition, when the inevitable outcome of that decision is reached.

All it did was to give the tree-huggers an opportunity to claim victory whilst simply guaranteeing that unless something radically changes, the lights will start to go out from about 2015 - depending upon whom you want to believe. It takes the whole electrification question to another level, as we will be continually demanding more and more electricity, whilst at the same time we will be closing down our coal-fired power stations with bugger all else to replace the generating capacity.

Of course the irony of us having to depend on using Nuclear generated electricity from France, and the more serious envirnomental damage caused by the production of plant-based oils is lost on pretty much all of the so called environmental lobby :roll:
 

The Planner

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Old Timer. Its well known that FOC s have paths for non existant services.

Which also shoots them in the foot sometimes, many paths have been rejected in the past because they clash with their own trains that dont run. NR need to get tougher with it as there are "use it or lose it" clauses which are never enforced.
 

tbtc

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Which also shoots them in the foot sometimes, many paths have been rejected in the past because they clash with their own trains that dont run. NR need to get tougher with it as there are "use it or lose it" clauses which are never enforced.

Agreed - it only takes a couple of "ghost" freight paths to stop several passenger trips from being able to run (given speed differentials etc)
 

daccer

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I worked for Railfreight in 1989 and the tonnage figure being moved was about 150m tonnes. I believe the figure today is around 100 million tonnes so in pure tonnage rail has lost 33% of its traffic. Also Railfreight did not count infrastructure work in its figures as it was classed as non-revenue earning. I think todays figures do include this traffic. Obviously the long distance coal traffic and the rise in intermodal work hides some of these tonnage losses so the tonnage/km figure does actually show growth.

It is no secret that the core bulk flows on wich traditional railfreight relied are all either at their zenith or in decline. New bulk flows do come about but they tend to be diverting traffic from other flows or replacing them all together. They are probably not enough to offset the general decline in traditional bulk commodities. Finished products and in particular intermodal are the real growth areas for railfreight and these are the ones that the FOC's will be concentrating on going forward. As the market has become fragmented with new FOC's not carrying the overheads of EWS it probably does open up some of these smaller less frequent flows and there will undoubtedly be an increase in one offs and less frequent workings rather than daily runnings. How NR cope with the need to be flexible will no doubt impinge on the FOC's ability to grow the market. A just in time supply chain is by its nature flexible and slightly ad hoc - if Rail wants a part in this then it too will need to be flexible.

Old Timer I too am out of the country but did I read somewhere that a new cement flow to Wellingborough is imminent and that one to Leicester has already started?
 

6S83

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6S83
It may be that changes to traffic flows give that impression and maybe distort the figures.

For example if memory serves me right, there used to be a cross-channel car flow that ran to Wembley, from there it ran Wembley to Bescot, and then from there it ran Bescot to Scotland. If I am right, it now arrives in Newport by ship and runs direct to Scotland.

Again, assuming I am recalling facts correctly, that would give the impression of a severe loss of traffic when in fact the traffic is still there but flowing differently.

Infrastructure traffic flows have reduced partially due to the concentration of depots, but also due to Network Rail's attempts to reduce the costs of its Maintenance organisation. Having crowed long and loudly about saving money it has finally realised that has neither the capability nor the competence of the former IMCs to manage infrastructure maintenance, and thus renewals are being deferred as part of the manipulation of the figures.

The introduction of the HOTR trains inevitably has also had an impact on the number of trains running, as well as the move towards larger capacity wagons. None of this means the traffic has gone (within reason) but simply means that the same volumes are moving in fewer trains, again giving rise to perceptions that traffic has declined. That said it is definitely true that considerable renewals work has been cancelled by Network Rail but the comment is to be read against the previous and present volumes of stone and materials moving to renewals sites on a proportionate basis.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

'Daccer' has given us some figures, if the 150m tonnes for 1989 (excepting infrastucture tonnage) and 100m tonnes now (presumably including it,) are correct, then traffic levels as I thought, have fallen massively. I've lived it.
 

Metroland

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There is a difference between freight moved and freight lifted:

Freight lifted, is the amount of freight in tonnes actually loaded onto the back of a mode of transport.

Freight moved, is the amount of freight in loaded onto the back of a mode of transport and moved over x distance.

In the transport business, it's the second figure that is more important you are paid to shift freight over a distance in general.

In the case of Rail, freight lifted has fallen from 150 million tonnes in 1989, to just under 90 million tonnes. This reflects the decline of heavy industry, and movements to power stations of raw materials like coal.

However

If you look at freight moved it is now 1 billion net km higher than in 1989, because the freight, although less, is being moved futher. It's actually fallen from about 22 billion net tonne km just before the recession, but it's on it's way back up. It was as low as about 12 in the 1990s.

Incidently as a comparison freight lifted for road has been static for over 10 years, and actually fallen for pipeline and coastal shipping.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/nrt_ch3_freight.pdf

Freight train movements don't reflect much either, there are less because wagons have got bigger and locos more powerful, so there is more on each train.
 
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