Freight being unfairly blamed...AGAIN!

[furnessvale]

https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/...-train-brings-disruption-rail-users-lewisham/

Late freight train brings disruption to rail users at Lewisham

A freight train running late brought disruption to rail users at Lewisham Station on Sunday (November 3).

The problem was caused by a fault with signalling equipment that helps rail workers safely monitor a train's progress through certain checkpoints in the line.

The spokesperson offered further details on what exactly caused the freight train to be late through Lewisham:

"There is a problem with the axle counter (these are part of the signalling equipment, which count wheel sets across a recording point to ensure the trains have passed fully) in the Lewisham area....

Too often freight is being blamed for delays when it is patently untrue. Andrew Adonis even attempted to use this false information to have freight removed from rail and put on road when he was a member of the National Infrastructure Commission. Fortunately, it was AA that was removed

 

[londonteacher]

The article does explain what the delay is, but unfortunately the headline is misleading.

 

[ComUtoR]

To be honest. The freight movements across that particular junction do cause delays to passengers on an almost daily basis.

 

[furnessvale]

To be honest. The freight movements across that particular junction do cause delays to passengers on an almost daily basis.

Without a detailed analysis it would be difficult to apportion "blame".

The mere appearance of a freight train at the time a passenger train is waiting to make a move is not proof that the freight is at fault for any delay.

 

[Class 170101]

The Axle counter needs to go back to school and learn how to count again

 

[Clip]

Without a detailed analysis it would be difficult to apportion "blame".

The mere appearance of a freight train at the time a passenger train is waiting to make a move is not proof that the freight is at fault for any delay.

Very true however the story is only reporting what NRE has put on its website so you can hardly fault them

 

[ComUtoR]

Without a detailed analysis it would be difficult to apportion "blame".

Delay attribution is the Devils task for sure.

At that junction there are a couple of freight moves each day. Whenever I am sitting there, on time, waiting for the signal, and a freight goes past. My service is being held for that freight train. Passenger services get held for freight on a regular basis, there is no denying that. On the rare occasions at that junction when the freight gets held, I really feel for that Driver. There is a horrid gradient and they have a few tons to bring to a stand, and they tend to block the junction for other movements too.

If we are going down the rabbit hole of no proof therefore no blame can be apportioned. How do we know that the axle counter wasn't damaged by a passing freight ? Should we apportion blame to the manufacturer of the axle counter because it broke ? Do we track back to who designed them, installed them, maintained them etc. This isn't a horseshoe nail scenario.

All I can tell you, with 100% certainty. Is that Passenger services that are on time, get held for freight.

 

[edwin_m]

On the rare occasions at that junction when the freight gets held, I really feel for that Driver. There is a horrid gradient and they have a few tons to bring to a stand, and they tend to block the junction for other movements too.

Which may be the nub of the issue. I can't speak for this specific junction but there are definitely situations where it's best to let the freight run and stop the passenger instead. As well as possibly being long enough to block other junctions, the freight will be much slower to get moving again so stopping one or two passenger trains instead might cause less overall disruption to passengers (such as the ones in trains behind it!).

Also, for example, the freight may be an inter-regional running through a whole series of busy junctions later in its journey, where a few minutes delay could disrupt several other trains. And the passenger trains may be on their way into London terminals where a few minutes delay doesn't cause other conflicts and there is enough turnaround time for their next departure to be punctual.

All this, I suspect, is beyond the journalistic abilities of the reporter for the "News Shopper"...

 

[ComUtoR]

Getting delayed by other services is very much par for the course. I would agree that freights are much more difficult to stop/start and have train lengths that are more detrimental when they stop. I hate getting held when I'm on time but I understand the reason why. There are a number of places on that part of the network that you always get held for freight. At the other end of the line; Nunhead, is also where you get held and again further down at Crofton Road.

Plenty of clashes toward Dartford too as freights head down towards Hoo Junction, where you can also get held for freights shunting :/

 

[alistairlees]

The picture captioned "Lewisham station" appears to be the country end of platforms 5 and 6 in the old London Bridge station (i.e. before the recent remodelling) too.

 

[Horizon22]

There are often issues with freight trains running late around Lewisham and Hither Green, as they cross over towards Lewisham Vale and on towards the Catford Loop and ultimately W London line. It's not isolated to just Sundays. Early mornings can be a problem as around 5-6am there's a lot coming from the terminal on Isle of Grain / Hoo Junction that can run late and causes conflicts. What's worse is freight trains awaiting acceptance into Angerstein Wharf which can delay a whole bunch of service on the Bexleyheath / Woolwich / Greenwich lines. That is attributable to poor freight planning.

From this incident it does indeed to be more of an infrastructure fault than freight; its just fairly lazy journalism and not an entirely correct response from Southeastern initially.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There are often issues with freight trains running late around Lewisham and Hither Green, as they cross over towards Lewisham Vale and on towards the Catford Loop and ultimately W London line. It's not isolated to just Sundays. Early mornings can be a problem as around 5-6am there's a lot coming from the terminal on Isle of Grain / Hoo Junction that can run late and causes conflicts. What's worse is freight trains awaiting acceptance into Angerstein Wharf which can delay a whole bunch of service on the Bexleyheath / Woolwich / Greenwich lines. That is attributable to poor freight planning.

From this incident it does indeed to be more of an infrastructure fault than freight; its just fairly lazy journalism and not an entirely correct response from Southeastern initially.

Surely delayed acceptance into Angerstein is a 'terminal operation' issue (e.g. staff shortage or whatever) rather than a [train] planning/timetabling problem?

 

[Horizon22]

Surely delayed acceptance into Angerstein is a 'terminal operation' issue (e.g. staff shortage or whatever) rather than a [train] planning/timetabling problem?

Not sure what the exact delay cause would be, but in most instances this would be explained to passengers as a "late running freight train", as you're not going to go into the specifics and the ultimate responsibility lies with the FOC. It's a planning issue by having these trains enter Angerstein in the shoulder-peak, IMO.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Freight getting blamed or held is not in NRs interests, Freight pay the highest track access charges due to axle weight & length, because of this a light passenger service will always be held because one of the biggest profit making methods for NR is charging private companies for hauling freight fining them will eventually reduce their movements and in some cases things will switch to roads permanently, passenger services can't be cut.

 

[Dieseldriver]

All I can tell you, with 100% certainty. Is that Passenger services that are on time, get held for freight.

And I can tell you, with 100% certainty that on time freight services get held for passenger trains. It works both ways and whilst a delayed freight train may delay passenger trains, remember that the late running freight may well have been delayed due to late running passenger trains. Its a circle that keeps spinning round infinitely

 

[EvoIV]

And I can tell you, with 100% certainty that on time freight services get held for passenger trains. It works both ways and whilst a delayed freight train may delay passenger trains, remember that the late running freight may well have been delayed due to late running passenger trains. Its a circle that keeps spinning round infinitely

This...

It's a subject that's been done to death so I have little to add but I do note that sometimes you get a bunch of signallers (clearly with the right support from the SSMs) who really do seem to try their best to both recover late running and also see the bigger picture and contain delays as far as possible. Unfortunately there are also the booked order merchants who either don't have the confidence to make such regulating decisions or who have had that beaten out of them, which mean that delays are guaranteed to propagate to other services.

I might cynically suggest that sometimes it seems to depend on who's TIN any knock on delays are going into. I have no postable evidence for that but having seen things from both sides I know that this sometimes changes decision making at higher levels from Controls.

 

[lineclear]

Freight getting blamed or held is not in NRs interests, Freight pay the highest track access charges due to axle weight & length, because of this a light passenger service will always be held because one of the biggest profit making methods for NR is charging private companies for hauling freight fining them will eventually reduce their movements and in some cases things will switch to roads permanently, passenger services can't be cut.

I do plenty of regulating. The quoted comment fortunately bears no resemblance to reality.

 

[hkstudent]

There are often issues with freight trains running late around Lewisham and Hither Green, as they cross over towards Lewisham Vale and on towards the Catford Loop and ultimately W London line. It's not isolated to just Sundays. Early mornings can be a problem as around 5-6am there's a lot coming from the terminal on Isle of Grain / Hoo Junction that can run late and causes conflicts. What's worse is freight trains awaiting acceptance into Angerstein Wharf which can delay a whole bunch of service on the Bexleyheath / Woolwich / Greenwich lines. That is attributable to poor freight planning.

From this incident it does indeed to be more of an infrastructure fault than freight; its just fairly lazy journalism and not an entirely correct response from Southeastern initially.

Well, don't expect Newshopper be fully acurate.
It is a local newspaper, with a lot of exaggerated reports and ill-found reports.

Surely delayed acceptance into Angerstein is a 'terminal operation' issue (e.g. staff shortage or whatever) rather than a [train] planning/timetabling problem?

Not sure about that.

But I hope that a possible west / south -facing exit of Angerstein wharf may solve a bit of junction conflict issues at Slade Green.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It's a planning issue by having these trains enter Angerstein in the shoulder-peak, IMO.

The delay happened on a Sunday according to the newspaper

 

[F Great Eastern]

There is fun and games going on with blaming freight for things that it is not directly at fault for.

I'm seeing things on National Rail enquiries and on Greater Anglia showing as being delayed for one reason and even been on train when we've been told it's due to a train fault we are delayed and then later on in the journey National Rail app and Journeycheck shows it's due to a late running freight train.

On these occasions, it's always seemed to be a train is running late, missed it's path and then gets held up by a freight train as a consequence of the earlier delay, which to me is fiddling statistics.

 

[Starmill]

The industry does seem to have a problem with the blame game overall, for freight and other things. I have heard guards announcing that their train is being delayed by freight trains. There is one particular LNER guard who likes to announce that the delay to his train has been caused by CrossCountry. Some announce that delays are due to signallers, or due to Network Rail, or due to specific other services. Rarely are these accurate technical assessments.

 

[hkstudent]

The industry does seem to have a problem with the blame game overall, for freight and other things. I have heard guards announcing that their train is being delayed by freight trains. There is one particular LNER guard who likes to announce that the delay to his train has been caused by CrossCountry. Some announce that delays are due to signallers, or due to Network Rail, or due to specific other services. Rarely are these accurate technical assessments.

Would that be similar to TL's "noone take account" issue on May 2018 Timetable incident?

 

[Merle Haggard]

In the early days of privatisation I was going home on the MML 17.45 down from St Pancras HST, and we stopped in the platform at one of the stations between Luton & Bedford. Our conductor announced that the delay was due to 'A lineside fire'.
A Thameslink train drew up alongside us in the down slow platform, and as the passengers were alighting, the announcement made by the conductor on that train could be clearly heard through open drop-lights on our HST and it gave a slightly more detailed account. His explanation of the delay was 'Owing to a fire on a MIDLAND MAIN LINE train' (note his emphasis).
The latter explanation was factually correct, although fortunately the HST involved was still on the rails, not down the bank, as the former possibly suggested. And it was only the usual exhaust fire, so actually not much delay.

 

[EM2]

There is fun and games going on with blaming freight for things that it is not directly at fault for.

I'm seeing things on National Rail enquiries and on Greater Anglia showing as being delayed for one reason and even been on train when we've been told it's due to a train fault we are delayed and then later on in the journey National Rail app and Journeycheck shows it's due to a late running freight train.

On these occasions, it's always seemed to be a train is running late, missed it's path and then gets held up by a freight train as a consequence of the earlier delay, which to me is fiddling statistics.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The freight train might well be running late because it's faulty.

 

[EM2]

It's a planning issue by having these trains enter Angerstein in the shoulder-peak, IMO.

It's a planning issue if the train plan is not compliant. It doesn't matter how many trains are planned and when, if the plan is in line with the timetable planning rules (headways, junction margins etc.) and the rules are as agreed, then it's not the plan that is at fault.

 

[Horizon22]

The delay happened on a Sunday according to the newspaper

Fully aware, my comment was regards to other freight issues in the area.

 

[Horizon22]

The industry does seem to have a problem with the blame game overall, for freight and other things. I have heard guards announcing that their train is being delayed by freight trains. There is one particular LNER guard who likes to announce that the delay to his train has been caused by CrossCountry. Some announce that delays are due to signallers, or due to Network Rail, or due to specific other services. Rarely are these accurate technical assessments.

Likely the on-board member probably doesn't have the in-depth background data to the delay, but wants to announce something to passengers. "Due to Network Rail" is particularly lazy though.

 

[TRIAR]

Can anyone shed some light on why TV signallers have a penchant for pathing late running freight trains immediately in front of express passenger services that are running on time? My understanding was (i) an on-time class 1 should generally have priority over a class 4 and (ii) once you've lost your path you would usually only go down the pecking order.

Take last Wednesday (30th Oct) as an example. Train 1P06 left DID on time but was held 10 minutes before its first stop (CHO) due to late running freight train. 1P06 was then 11 late at RDG, so the MAI stop was cancelled and it arrived 9 late at PAD at 0747.

Is there really enough of an argument to prioritise a late running freight service given that:
- 1P06 left on time
- 1P06 is classed as an express passenger service
- It was morning peak
- Not stopping at MAI will have impacted a number of passengers
- Hundreds of passengers had a delay of almost 10 minutes added to their day, which was completely avoidable
- It now counts as a cancellation for GWR's performance month stats

I'm guessing the rules allow for an element of signaller discretion, but if we're going to prioritise late running freight ahead of express passenger services during the peaks then perhaps a rethink is in order?

Given there is about to be a significant increase in traffic in/out of PAD (and therefore around Acton) are there any plans to restrict/prohibit freight operating during peak hours?

 

[221129]

Your understanding is very wrong.

 

[EvoIV]

I doubt that call was made by the signaller on their own. In general freight will be held on the avoider, sometimes for fifteen minutes or more, to let the stopper trundle on in front. This was likely a call made by a SSM or TRC or higher in control with an eye on the bigger picture.

If the freight goes behind the class 2 (which this effectively is until Reading despite the headcode) it will import an extra 10+ minutes of delay to the freight. This is because of the long signal sections and three aspect signalling. The freight will probably trundle along at a maximum of 40mph to avoid hitting yellows and having to brake for the out of sight red signal which will likely have stepped up by the time the freight gets there. This would not only be an inefficient way of driving, it's slower, it's not professional and increases the spad risk. Therefore a slower constant speed is the order of the day. Remember a freight can't accelerate like a unit so when speed is lost braking for a signal it takes miles and miles to get it back again.

If the freight went behind the stopper, would there be room to keep it on the avoider? What happens at Reading West and Southcote? You can't really have two freights waiting to go through Reading West as the rear one sits on, and blocks, the Up Relief so nothing following will be able to get to Reading (no crossover Up Relief to Up Main at Tilehurst and Scours Lane will be blocked too so no access to Up Reading Passenger Loop)

There are many many things that will go into a decision such as that. It's never as simplistic as you've painted.