Freedom Passes

[cjp]

In London people are lucky enough to be able to us their bus passes on both Tube and Railway service (with one or two exceptions such as Heathrow Express) and the card gets called a Freedom Pass and acts like a free to use Oyster card.
I have no idea how much might be saved if a flat fare were to be charged - for example 20p- but what technology change would be required, if any?

 

[PeterC]

The technology is there for the Zip card already.

The political will is another matter of course.

 

[DY444]

"Labour Mayor penalises the elderly"

Sounds like a sure fire vote winner to me

 

[cjp]

"Labour Mayor penalises the elderly"

Sounds like a sure fire vote winner to me

As an oldie 20p would not break me and with 10p going to the operator and 10p being used to reduce the cost to the local authorities (an so making money available for other projects) it could well be a vote winner.
Of course good presentation could impact how such a charge would be accepted.

 

[Busaholic]

They could withdraw it from new applicants under the state pension age, though, rather than anyone aged 60 and normally resident in Greater London being eligible. This could be politically acceptable as it would not take away anyone's pass or mean anyone paying anything for travel who currently gets it for free. There could also be a one-off issue fee for a pass too, say £10. I'm not advocating this, just suggesting it's much more acceptable than the 20p charge suggested, which, within a year or two, would probably reach £1.

 

[island]

There's already a £20 issue fee for 60+ Oyster cards.

 

[Busaholic]

There's already a £20 issue fee for 60+ Oyster cards.

I'm proposing their abolition though! In effect you're paying an upfront fare of £20 for totally free travel thereafter from being 60 to 63/64 or whatever the current state pension age is. The £10 fee would apply to all of state pension age.

 

[bicbasher]

I can see Oyster+60 being abolished as more people reach 60 with people working longer until they're 68.

It was introduced to stop older people who were just about to reach pension age who found they had to wait a few more months or years for the privilege.

However I can't see the Freedom Pass in London being axed any time soon.

 

[Bedpan]

Why do Londoners get their Freedom Pass at 60 then? That sound a bit unfair when the rest of us in England have to wait till 63-65. I think nothing of paying £700 for a 3 year Senior Railcard ( or £15 for a one year one in Tesco vouchers), and I'd equally pay a similar amount for my bus pass if asked to do so. Better that than to withdraw it!

 

[Alan2603]

Why do Londoners get their Freedom Pass at 60 then? That sound a bit unfair when the rest of us in England have to wait till 63-65. I think nothing of paying £700 for a 3 year Senior Railcard ( or £15 for a one year one in Tesco vouchers), and I'd equally pay a similar amount for my bus pass if asked to do so. Better that than to withdraw it!

£700 for a 3yr Senior Railcard?

Either a typo or you have bought it from the wrong place.

Alan

 

[Tetchytyke]

"Labour Mayor penalises the elderly"

Sounds like a sure fire vote winner to me

And that's the problem. It needs doing- same with ENCTS- but it would be political suicide.

50p per journey would take most of the cost of the scheme away from councils, but wouldn't bankrupt anyone.

 

[island]

Why do Londoners get their Freedom Pass at 60 then? That sound a bit unfair when the rest of us in England have to wait till 63-65. I think nothing of paying £700 for a 3 year Senior Railcard ( or £15 for a one year one in Tesco vouchers), and I'd equally pay a similar amount for my bus pass if asked to do so. Better that than to withdraw it!

They don't get a Freedom Pass per se; the 60+ Oyster card isn't usable outside London. But the card was introduced by Boris, presumably to canvass votes.

And that's the problem. It needs doing- same with ENCTS- but it would be political suicide.

50p per journey would take most of the cost of the scheme away from councils, but wouldn't bankrupt anyone.

I read an argument that the cost of administering and dealing with all the payments would be in excess of any fares raised and it would only serve to cut ridership further.

 

[takno]

And that's the problem. It needs doing- same with ENCTS- but it would be political suicide.

50p per journey would take most of the cost of the scheme away from councils, but wouldn't bankrupt anyone.

A small flat-fee would take away a lot of the benefits for the elderly who actually need the pass, which revolve around being able to make relatively short journeys and get out of the house. Instead you are directing even more of the incentives at the often healthy-and-wealthy retired who want to spend their free time trotting round the place on trips they could easily have paid for themselves.

In any case, the numbers of journeys being taken would likely fall significantly. Bus travel in a lot of places (though not all) has improved greatly with the influx of subsidized travellers, with Stagecoach upping their game and First group abandoning whole areas to competent operators. Any fall in users would threaten that, with consequences for all bus users, not just the elderly.

 

[Bedpan]

£700 for a 3yr Senior Railcard?

Either a typo or you have bought it from the wrong place.

Alan

It was one of those websites that said give us your details and pay the money, and we will fill the form in for you and send it off for you. :roll: (Real answer - Apologies for the typo, I didn't see the extra nought on there)!

 

[AM9]

... I read an argument that the cost of administering and dealing with all the payments would be in excess of any fares raised and it would only serve to cut ridership further.

A removal of the current ENCTS/Freedom Pass ridership would persuade many elderly to drive more and later into their retirement. Those that couldn't drive either financially or through a lack of a licence would have their freedom severely restricted, (hence the name 'Freedom Pass').
I'm not sure that other road users would appreciate the increase in the number of drivers who no longer retain sufficient basic skills and alertness for modern London traffic. Many younger drivers already have an attitude that their journey is more important than slower, older drivers anyway. This would have a greater impact in the outer suburbs where traffic flows are more prone to disruption, particularly around the main arterial routes into the city and their associated rat-runs.

 

[AM9]

Why do Londoners get their Freedom Pass at 60 then? That sound a bit unfair when the rest of us in England have to wait till 63-65. I think nothing of paying £700 for a 3 year Senior Railcard ( or £15 for a one year one in Tesco vouchers), and I'd equally pay a similar amount for my bus pass if asked to do so. Better that than to withdraw it!

Because 'Londoners' pay for it in their council taxes.

 

[PeterC]

Actually Londoners get Freedom Passes at the ENCTS qualifying age.

There is a separate 60+ pass that is SOLD to over 60s (admittedly at a purely nominal cost) giving similar access to services controlled by TfL.

 

[Busaholic]

This thread looks like it's going down the old 'scrap bus passes or, alternatively, start charging Xp per journey' route, which has been done to death already, whereas the original post was specifically about the huge public transport benefits available to Freedom Pass holders in London. Apart from scrapping eligibility below the pension age, there would be scope to charge something for train journeys of all varieties, especially as the saving to the passholder is likely to be so much greater. I don't know how much child fares are, and whether it would be feasible to match these for passholders, or whether a 'straightforward' (ha! ha!) flat fare per journey would be better, but it wouldn't perhaps be unreasonable to suggest it could be looked at.

 

[cjp]

A removal of the current ENCTS/Freedom Pass ridership would persuade many elderly to drive more and later into their retirement. Those that couldn't drive either financially or through a lack of a licence would have their freedom severely restricted, (hence the name 'Freedom Pass').
I'm not sure that other road users would appreciate the increase in the number of drivers who no longer retain sufficient basic skills and alertness for modern London traffic. Many younger drivers already have an attitude that their journey is more important than slower, older drivers anyway. This would have a greater impact in the outer suburbs where traffic flows are more prone to disruption, particularly around the main arterial routes into the city and their associated rat-runs.

I disagree
Having learned in the second post that the technology exists I would keep the free bus and tram travel which is offered up and down the country but for those wishing to to travel faster or further give the freedom to travel by
Train or Tube for a single flat fare of 20p

 

[rmt4ever]

What a load of tosh. It's simple, OAPs deserve free travel full stop. As a 30 odd year old paying income tax and London council tax etc, I would be happy to carry on paying and even pay say £5-10 per year extra next year if there is a deficit, to help pay for my elders travel costs,

They should NEVER have to pay anything.

 

[34D]

I'm proposing their abolition though! In effect you're paying an upfront fare of £20 for totally free travel thereafter from being 60 to 63/64 or whatever the current state pension age is. The £10 fee would apply to all of state pension age.

If someone turned 60 on 1st Jan 2017 they become eligible for ENCTS on 1st Jan 2023 so thats six years of iirc peak time tube travel.

Recall this age group is likely to have a senior level job with a final salary pension too.

 

[34D]

What a load of tosh. It's simple, OAPs deserve free travel full stop. As a 30 odd year old paying income tax and London council tax etc, I would be happy to carry on paying and even pay say £5-10 per year extra next year if there is a deficit, to help pay for my elders travel costs,

They should NEVER have to pay anything.

Respectfully, we are an ageing population and future governments simply cannot afford to keep retired persons in the lap of luxury they have enjoyed presently.

I do not know what the answer is and i wont foretell my own predictions.

 

[urbophile]

If someone turned 60 on 1st Jan 2017 they become eligible for ENCTS on 1st Jan 2023 so thats six years of iirc peak time tube travel.

Recall this age group is likely to have a senior level job with a final salary pension too.

Figures? Not everybody is middle class on a professional income. Many people in that age group are struggling (if you are unemployed past 50 it's unlikely you'll get permanent employment again, even in London I would guess).

 

[island]

Respectfully, we are an ageing population and future governments simply cannot afford to keep retired persons in the lap of luxury they have enjoyed presently.

I do not know what the answer is and i wont foretell my own predictions.

I agree with your premise, but as OAPs are more likely to vote than most other groups, governments cut their entitlements at their peril.

 

[Steelwheels]

Actually Londoners get Freedom Passes at the ENCTS qualifying age.

There is a separate 60+ pass that is SOLD to over 60s (admittedly at a purely nominal cost) giving similar access to services controlled by TfL.

Merseytravel also operate the same system for Merseyside and I believe that these are the only 2 areas in the ENCTS which do this.

 

[stanley T]

I live in outer London and use my Freedom Pass a lot. Frankly I could afford to pay while the people who get screwed in this city are young couples who cannot afford to buy property, and pay a fortune in rent, while most oldsters are sitting on property bought years ago now worth a fortune. Trouble is we retiring baby boomers are numerous and vote a lot, worth bribing electorally as did Ken and Boris when they were mayors.

Also embarrassing that London is yet again privileged compared to the "provinces". Free rail travel not really feasible in the countryside, but would be within other metropolitan areas. I think seniors there would be willing to pay say £50 a year to add local trains and trams to free bus travel.

 

[brompton rail]

Please note that Bus Passes were introduced by politicians and will continue or cease by the actions (or inactions) of politicians. Their actions are around the belief that Pensioners are more likely to vote their party if the Pass continues.

Therefore the views of individual pensioners are largely irrelevant, and more so the voices of young people opposed to Passes even less relevant. Politicians 'know' young people don't vote - they will use the Referendum as their evidence.

So, don't expect change anytime soon, though further cuts to local government spending might result in more generous provision being removed - like train and underground (& possibly tram) use being removed. Protests might occur but are not likely to change the reality of funding cuts

 

[Ron Hale]

South Yorkshire increased the qualifying age so that I will get my"Bus pass" when I'm 66. At the same time they made a 50% charge for use on our local trains.
Oddly there are no "off peak" rover fares anymore in the county so no encouragement to travel outside of peak times.

 

[Bedpan]

Broadly the same applies in my neck of the woods - we get half price train travel between Bedford and Elstree & Borehamwood, and between Sandy/Royston and Crews Hill/Hadley Wood on production of your bus pass. Not sure if a similar concession applies with London Midland though I think not.

I'm disappointed to learn that South Yorkshire no longer do rover tickets - I hope that the other metropolitan areas don't follow suit. West Yorkshire in particular is excellent, as is the Tyne and Wear one.

 

[urbophile]

I'm very conscious of the privilege it is to be in possession of an Aged Person's Travel Pass. Especially as here in Merseyside as in Greater London it allows free rail travel. But I don't feel guilty about it, nor do I think it would be a good idea to withdraw the benefit. Many people without it would rarely leave their homes, and hence become less fit, and prone to loneliness and depression; there must be a benefit to the NHS as well as general wellbeing. Many better off pensioners rarely use the pass anyway, preferring to drive: that is their prerogative, and it means their passes are no drain on public resources. However their existence means that many people will use public transport in preference to driving, which also has benefits: less pollution and congestion; as drivers get older and more doddery the less they are let loose on public roads the better.

There are strong arguments for similar passes for the unemployed and young people, but taking them away from pensioners isn't going to result in these groups being given them instead.