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Freedom Pass misuse

AlterEgo

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Roughly how long will this take? I wish they said more in that letter but instead simply said they are reviewing further. If I get an SJPN, how do I prepare for this? What sort of questions will they ask? All I want to do is admit that I used the card a handful of times during peak hours and pay the fine. Once it’s been paid I don’t have to declare this right?
You will bave to declare it in all circumstances for one year and, if the scenario in which you are asked is not subject to the provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, will need to declare it forever. You will have a criminal record.
 
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Ana246

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You will bave to declare it in all circumstances for one year and, if the scenario in which you are asked is not subject to the provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, will need to declare it forever. You will have a criminal record.
What exactly is subject to this Act?
 

AlterEgo

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Ana246

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I would appreciate if anyone can tag any other threads here with other similar cases of what’s happened following a similar situation
 

WesternLancer

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Roughly how long will this take? I wish they said more in that letter but instead simply said they are reviewing further. If I get an SJPN, how do I prepare for this? What sort of questions will they ask? All I want to do is admit that I used the card a handful of times during peak hours and pay the fine. Once it’s been paid I don’t have to declare this right?
You can find other threads where people have been sent SJPN court papers so you will see what they look like.

More broadly you need to understand that TfL do not settle things out of court in the way you would like.

What you did was a crime and they prosecute people for what you did. They do this to hundreds of people. That’s how they operate.

They consider that you have been stealing from them and their policy is to prosecute people who do this I’m afraid. That’s us done either in court in person or via the SJPN paper based process.

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I would appreciate if anyone can tag any other threads here with other similar cases of what’s happened following a similar situation
Yes. This thread is a good one. But I see you have already posted in it.


People are repeatedly answering your questions about criminal records with information for you. If you don’t fully understand the information or the answers given here I would suggest that after the next stages (ie any court process) you go to somewhere like a Citizens Advice Bureau and ask them to explain more to you as they provide free advice.

But the website of the charity Unlock which has been mentioned is a good place for you to look and read information too.

The key thing for you is to know what your current employers rules are about telling them. We can’t help you with that because we don’t know who they are or what your contract says. You must have been given a copy of your contract when you started work. Start off by seeing what that says about convictions. Then have a look on something like your work intranet for an HR guidance handbook for staff and see what that says.

More broadly if you are asked eg on a job application or when you get or renew your car insurance or if you apply for a loan a question like ‘do you have any criminal convictions?’ You should answer ‘yes’ and state the conviction concerned (so
Probably something like saying for example ‘on x date I was convicted of fare evasion at y magistrates court’ ).
Assuming of course you are convicted at the culmination of this process.
 
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flitwickbeds

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All I want to do is admit that I used the card a handful of times during peak hours and pay the fine.

Is this actually the truth? In your first post you say:
I have been using it for the past year in the evenings to get home
Which I (and I think most other posters here) read to mean at least a few times a week, every week, for something like 50 weeks.

Which version is more accurate? I don't think we've really gotten to the bottom of your actual usage of your dad's pass on this thread.

What also hasn't been mentioned/asked is whether your dad had knowledge of you using his pass - if so, he has almost certainly also committed an offense.
 

Ana246

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Is this actually the truth? In your first post you say:

Which I (and I think most other posters here) read to mean at least a few times a week, every week, for something like 50 weeks.

Which version is more accurate? I don't think we've really gotten to the bottom of your actual usage of your dad's pass on this thread.

What also hasn't been mentioned/asked is whether your dad had knowledge of you using his pass - if so, he has almost certainly also committed an offense.
I have been using it 1x a week sometimes 2x after work to come home for a year. Even if he was aware this fault is completely mine. I’ve seen others misuse their relatives passes and it’s only been them who’ve had to deal with this. I don’t want any issues going towards him on this matter
 

jfollows

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If your dad was aware then he has broken the terms under which the pass was issued to him.
The Freedom Pass remains the property of London Councils and is not transferable. It may only be used by the holder whose name appears on the front and may not be used by anyone else.
 

flitwickbeds

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I have been using it 1x a week sometimes 2x after work to come home for a year. Even if he was aware this fault is completely mine. I’ve seen others misuse their relatives passes and it’s only been them who’ve had to deal with this. I don’t want any issues going towards on this matter
So maybe 65 times in total, would you say?

As others have said, it's important throughout this process to be completely honest - both to get the best outcome possible this time, and so that there is no further action taken against you in the future for further offenses they subsequently discover that haven't been "taken into consideration" during this case.

I assume the question about your Dad's knowledge of you using his pass might be asked as part of the court case - after all, you either stole it from him or he gave you his blessing to use it. Him giving it to you, if that is what happened, is also an offense and he could be separately prosecuted, in theory.

Ultimately, what "you want" to happen is completely outside of your control.
 

Ana246

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So maybe 65 times in total, would you say?

As others have said, it's important throughout this process to be completely honest - both to get the best outcome possible this time, and so that there is no further action taken against you in the future for further offenses they subsequently discover that haven't been "taken into consideration" during this case.

I assume the question about your Dad's knowledge of you using his pass might be asked as part of the court case - after all, you either stole it from him or he gave you his blessing to use it. Him giving it to you, if that is what happened, is also an offense and he could be separately prosecuted, in theory.

Ultimately, what "you want" to happen is completely outside of your control.
Potentially yes. All the other times or any other journeys were all completed on my bank cards. I know that does not invalidate the use my dads pass. I can see lots of people here used a relatives but cannot find if they were questioned. I should’ve known better as I would not blame him at all for my mistake. The tfl staff literally told me to report his card as lost and he received a new one in a few weeks and he told me my dad wouldn’t have any issues on this matter
 

flitwickbeds

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OK, so if that 65 number is anywhere near accurate, you need to stop referring to it as "a handful of times" as this is not truthful.
 

AndroidBango

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OK, so if that 65 number is anywhere near accurate, you need to stop referring to it as "a handful of times" as this is not truthful.
And remember that being untruthful in court carries a considerably more serious penalty than being convicted of fare evasion.
 

Ana246

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Hello, I’ve just received my court summon letter which incorrectly has 51 offences 19 of which are bus journeys. TfL buses show freedom pass on their monitor so those 19 times were usually legally by my dad. I am now confused because I need to tick the box of the plea form. If I tick I intend to plead guilty for the 19 bus journeys included that is false! I only ever use the pass on trains including one train journey that my dad actually took. The letter states I need to return the form to Bromley magistrates however does not state by how many days. I cannot sign the document and send it when 19 journeys were done by my dad legally. Can someone help me out here please

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I will tick I plead guilty however there is a statement I can write out to them informing that I only used the pass on train journeys because TFL buses show freedom pass on display which they should be aware off!
 

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Ana246

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So what about the ones that weren't "usually legally" by your dad?
Like I said out of the 51 (19 of those are bus journeys so I plea guilty only for the train journeys of which 2 train journeys were done by my dad). How can I prove that those bus journeys are not by me

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Could someone also kindly advise me whether the 2nd image where it gives me the option to write a statement out do I keep this with me and provide it on day of the of the hearing ?
 
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Fawkes Cat

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How can I prove that those bus journeys are not by me
Strictly, it's for TfL to prove that it was you who travelled, rather than you to prove that it wasn't you. So if you're certain that it wasn't you on a given journey, just say so. But don't forget that TfL have lots of sources of information - there's CCTV on buses and trains, and if TfL were looking out for you then they may have witnesses as to when you travelled with your dad's pass. If they catch you out lying about one trip, then they'll be able to say 'how do we know you weren't lying about other trips'. So my advice would only be to say that you didn't make a journey if you're certain that's the case.

This also ties up with reality: TfL wants to take other offences into consideration as it's a quick and easy way for them to be solved - both for you and for TfL. Unless they have a strong suspicion that you're lying about individual trips that you did make after all, I think it is likely that they will accept what you say about journeys which were your dad rather than you.
 

Ana246

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Strictly, it's for TfL to prove that it was you who travelled, rather than you to prove that it wasn't you. So if you're certain that it wasn't you on a given journey, just say so. But don't forget that TfL have lots of sources of information - there's CCTV on buses and trains, and if TfL were looking out for you then they may have witnesses as to when you travelled with your dad's pass. If they catch you out lying about one trip, then they'll be able to say 'how do we know you weren't lying about other trips'. So my advice would only be to say that you didn't make a journey if you're certain that's the case.

This also ties up with reality: TfL wants to take other offences into consideration as it's a quick and easy way for them to be solved - both for you and for TfL. Unless they have a strong suspicion that you're lying about individual trips that you did make after all, I think it is likely that they will accept what you say about journeys which were your dad rather than you.
I can 100% guarantee that I have never used the pass on buses because my dad uses buses for where he can’t park his car and I only used the pass on trains that is the complete truth plus buses show “freedom pass” on display. My other question is the letter has 51 offences a mix of bus & trains and as all trains minus 2 were done by me should I only sign the train journeys and leave the bus ones empty? Can someone also tell me if I take into court my statement form alongside the info on the dates of travel plus MC100 on the day off? I am currently out of work and actively looking for a role and hope to to have a job before June but there’s no guarantee for now so I cannot fill the MC100 yet
 

WesternLancer

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Like I said out of the 51 (19 of those are bus journeys so I plea guilty only for the train journeys of which 2 train journeys were done by my dad). How can I prove that those bus journeys are not by me

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Could someone also kindly advise me whether the 2nd image where it gives me the option to write a statement out do I keep this with me and provide it on day of the of the hearing ?
Don't complete this until you get some advice on how to compete it properly (ie time for people here to answer your questions at least). There are some court experts on here who will hopefully provide some advice over the next day or so for you

I've usually seen it put on here that if you are not guilty of any of what they are accusing you of - you should not plead guilty to it - so if some of the bus journey's were not taken by you then you should not say that they were.
It's presumably up to TfL to prove that you took them if you state to them you did not

But the vital thing is to tell the truth of course.
 

Ana246

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Thank you I will wait before signing anything. I am of course “guilty” of all the train journeys except one so logically I do plea guilty but not to all 51 offences. My question is can I email or get in touch with TFL informing that the letter is inaccurate as bus journeys were all done by my dad.

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Don't complete this until you get some advice on how to compete it properly (ie time for people here to answer your questions at least). There are some court experts on here who will hopefully provide some advice over the next day or so for you

I've usually seen it put on here that if you are not guilty of any of what they are accusing you of - you should not plead guilty to it - so if some of the bus journey's were not taken by you then you should not say that they were.
It's presumably up to TfL to prove that you took them if you state to them you did not

But the vital thing is to tell the truth of course.
Thank you I will wait before signing anything. I am of course “guilty” of all the train journeys except one so logically I do plea guilty but not to all 51 offences. My question is can I email or get in touch with TFL informing that the letter is inaccurate as bus journeys were all done by my dad.
 

WesternLancer

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I can 100% guarantee that I have never used the pass on buses because my dad uses buses for where he can’t park his car and I only used the pass on trains that is the complete truth plus buses show “freedom pass” on display. My other question is the letter has 51 offences a mix of bus & trains and as all trains minus 2 were done by me should I only sign the train journeys and leave the bus ones empty? Can someone also tell me if I take into court my statement form alongside the info on the dates of travel plus MC100 on the day off? I am currently out of work and actively looking for a role and hope to to have a job before June but there’s no guarantee for now so I cannot fill the MC100 yet
On some of this there was a useful post by @island a while back for someone else about how to prepare for court and the papers to take / MC100 etc - I'll post a copy of it - most of that applies to what to prepare for on the day but some of it might be useful for you to read now (I'm assuming the documents require you to go in person and this is not SJPN?)

Here it is:


When attending court, you should bring with you copies of all paperwork you have received, and a form MC100 income and expenditure form. If there is anything on paper that you will want to give the court, such as a statement, you must have six copies of each document:

  • Three for the magistrates
  • one for the legal advisor
  • one for the prosecution
  • one for yourself
It is strongly recommended to dress formally. Where possible, gentlemen should wear a dark suit, tie, and formal shoes, and ladies should wear a suit with jacket, a formal top and skirt/trousers, or a dress, nothing too revealing, formal shoes and tights or similar should be worn. Jeans, trainers, open-toed shoes, anything bright, gaudy, or with slogans of any sort should be avoided.

At the court, you should make sure to arrive in good time before the time indicated on your summons. You will need to pass through security checks, which will typically include a walk-through metal detector and a bag search. Certain items are prohibited – check the Courts Service website.

Most courthouses have a number of courtrooms. You will need to check a noticeboard to see which courtroom your case has been assigned to. Staff can point this out. Speak to staff to identify yourself as a defendant.

You will probably have a fair bit of waiting around to do. Bring a book/magazine. You can use your phone whilst waiting in the court building but it should be on silent/do not disturb when in the court room itself.

When you are called into the courtroom, staff will indicate where you need to go. Do not sit down until invited to do so. You will likely have three magistrates sitting at the back on the highest level, with a legal adviser in front of them. (It's possible but unlikely that these four will be replaced by a single district judge.) Towards the centre of the court will be one or more prosecutors – solicitors representing TfL.

The legal adviser will ask you to confirm your personal details (name/address/DOB) and from there they will step you through what needs to be done – you'll likely be asked to confirm your guilty plea and then explain your mitigation. Mitigation means the reasons you are saying the court should punish you less harshly, or not at all.

After that, it could go off in several different directions, so I can't predict beyond there, all I can do is remind you that the court understands that their process is unfamiliar and will be happy for you to ask clarifying questions if you are unsure about anything. If you end up with a fine, you'll be asked if you can pay it right away (which really means within 28 days) or if you need to pay in instalments; they'll usually want it paying within 12 months. A letter will be sent to you with instructions on how to pay online, over the phone, or with a barcode at a "Paypoint" (convenience store).

Finally, don't be tempted to call anyone "your Honour" – that phrase isn't used at Magistrates Court. The magistrates collectively are addressed as "your Worships". Anyone else, including magistrates individually, should be addressed as "sir" or "madam" (not "ma'am").

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Thank you I will wait before signing anything. I am of course “guilty” of all the train journeys except one so logically I do plea guilty but not to all 51 offences. My question is can I email or get in touch with TFL informing that the letter is inaccurate as bus journeys were all done by my dad.
I suspect you can't do that now (but I would think there is nothing to stop you if you want to write to TfL again about it)

I am assuming this is not a letter from TfL - it is a document from the court - I realise you have not uploaded every part of each page but I assume somewhere on it is says where it is form and I'm assuming it has been sent by the magistrates court to you - it's what TfL are accusing you of. And if you are not guilty of some of it I would assume you tell the court that.

It may be that you can write that you did not take the bus journeys concerned in the section on 'mitigating circumstances' and that you want the court to be aware of that (the form says that what you write in it will be read out to the court by the clerk so they will then hear what you have written, and they may then question you about those bus trips) - but perhaps draft what wish to say in that box here before you fill it in on the form

You may also want to think about taking this paperwork to your local Citizens Advice Bureau if you are not sure what to do about any of it.
 
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Ana246

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On some of this there was a useful post by @island a while back for someone else about how to prepare for court and the papers to take / MC100 etc - I'll post a copy of it - most of that applies to what to prepare for on the day but some of it might be useful for you to read now (I'm assuming the documents require you to go in person and this is not SJPN?)

Here it is:




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I suspect you can't do that now (but I would think there is nothing to stop you if you want to write to TfL again about it)

I am assuming this is not a letter from TfL - it is a document from the court - I realise you have not uploaded every part of each page but I assume somewhere on it is says where it is form and I'm assuming it has been sent by the magistrates court to you - it's what TfL are accusing you of. And if you are not guilty of some of it I would assume you tell the court that.

You may also want to think about taking this paperwork to your local Citizens Advice Bureau if you are not sure what to do about any of it.
Thanks for sending across the info on MC100. I’m surprised it’s 6 copies of the MC100 form but I will have this on the day just in case. The letter looks like it’s from the Court with the TFL. Unfortunately I do not have an office for the citizens advice bureau but there is a number I may try
 

WesternLancer

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Thanks for sending across the info on MC100. I’m surprised it’s 6 copies of the MC100 form but I will have this on the day just in case. The letter looks like it’s from the Court with the TFL. Unfortunately I do not have an office for the citizens advice bureau but there is a number I may try
If you are based in Greenwich this is the website of CAB there if you haven't located that info already, in case it is of any help


There maybe also a local Law Centre you could see in your area perhaps.
 

Haywain

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buses show “freedom pass” on display.
If you are suggesting that this would somehow prevent you from using it on buses, I'm afraid that you are wrong. Freedom Passes are issued to disabled people of all ages and not all disabilities are obvious, so the driver won't be stopping anyone on account of that. However, if you did not make the journeys you should not plead guilty to them.
 

Ana246

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If there is anyone here who is a court expert I would greatly appreciate advice and I apologise if anything has been covered already

1) There are two letters. One I need to send to Bromley magistrates ticking whether I plea guilty or not (I do plea guilty but not to all 51). The second is a letter asking me to sign accepting 51 offences with the option to write a statement [I cannot do accept all 51 as the bus journeys are not mine] (do I take this to court on the day?). The dates with the offences require signatures, do I only sign the journeys I didn’t pay for (trains)?
2) At this moment in time I do not have a legal representative but please send details of solicitors with details of cost where possible who can help me
3) If anyone is aware of questions I may get asked I would appreciate that
4) The card was my dads, is there a chance for them to ask if my dad was aware of the use of his card and if I say no what happens next & if I yes what happens

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If you are suggesting that this would somehow prevent you from using it on buses, I'm afraid that you are wrong. Freedom Passes are issued to disabled people of all ages and not all disabilities are obvious, so the driver won't be stopping anyone on account of that. However, if you did not make the journeys you should not plead guilty to them.
What I’m suggesting is that I never used them on buses because my reasoning is buses are cheaper than trains so I always used my own cards. TfL have no proof that I used the card on buses. What proof can I give them
 

Haywain

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do I only sign the journeys I didn’t pay for (trains)?
Yes.
2) At this moment in time I do not have a legal representative but please send details of solicitors with details of cost where possible who can help me
You can find details of several firms of solicitors, who specialise on fare evasion, around the forum. They will not be able to prevent you being convicted of an offence at this late stage, and their assistance is likely to cost you in the order of £700 plus and that would be on top of the fines and costs that the court will impose.
4) The card was my dads, is there a chance for them to ask if my dad was aware of the use of his card and if I say no what happens next & if I yes what happens
It is unlikely that you will be asked.
TfL have no proof that I used the card on buses. What proof can I give them
You are being asked a question which demands a yes (guilty) or no (not guilty) answer. No one is likely to be asking for proof.
 

WesternLancer

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If you are suggesting that this would somehow prevent you from using it on buses, I'm afraid that you are wrong. Freedom Passes are issued to disabled people of all ages and not all disabilities are obvious, so the driver won't be stopping anyone on account of that. However, if you did not make the journeys you should not plead guilty to them.
I think essentially the OP is saying that they thought there was a much bigger chance of getting caught using one on a bus so didn't use the freedom pass on the bus trips they took. But IO see you have given good advice ref the questions being asked!

@Ana246 - it's quite possible that you can not prove you did not use the card on the bus, (and that TfL can not prove that you did use it). You just have to tell the court what is true and hope the magistrates believe you.
 

Ana246

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I think essentially the OP is saying that they thought there was a much bigger chance of getting caught using one on a bus so didn't use the freedom pass on the bus trips they took. But IO see you have given good advice ref the questions being asked!

@Ana246 - it's quite possible that you can not prove you did not use the card on the bus, (and that TfL can not prove that you did use it). You just have to tell the court what is true and hope the magistrates believe you.
That’s exactly it, I’m well aware when you tap cards on buses it states freedom passes so I would be dumb to use my dads pass plus I can afford to use my own cards

That’s right, while cannot prove I didn’t use on buses unless I get a written statement from my dad confirming all bus journeys were done by my dad. TfL also do not have proof that I did use it on buses either because I did not. I do think I will need to have a solicitor besides the point to fill the papers in accurately since I do not want to sign incorrectly, likewise have one for clarity as I would benefit from a legal representative speaking on behalf of me. If there are other threads where people have used solicitors and what their outcome was I would appreciate having this posted on here.
 
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Fawkes Cat

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TfL have no proof that I used the card on buses.
I've already said much the same as I do here, but you can only know this is true if you never, ever used the Freedom Pass on the bus - TfL might have evidence that they haven't yet told you about. So you should only say that you didn't make journeys if you know that you didn't make them. If it turns out that they can prove that you made some journeys which you say you didn't, you will be in trouble as they won't believe anything else that you say.

So
- if you know that you made a journey that you've been accused of, sign in the box
- if you know that you didn't make a journey, leave the box blank. In your statement, write 'I did not make the journey from <origin> to <destination> on <date>' (using what it says on the table for the journey you didn't make)
- if you aren't sure that you made a journey. leave the box blank. In your statement, write 'I do not know if I made the journey from <origin> to <destination> on <date>' (using what it says on the table for the journey you're not sure about)
- it would be a good idea to type your statement. That way, it'll be easy to read, and you can run off a few copies so that everyone can have one to look at instead of trying to share.

Like I've said, TfL and the court will want to get this over quickly. So if there are two or three journeys that you're not sure about they'll probably let those ones go. But any more than that, and they might think that you're trying it on. So think really hard about whether you know you made a journey or not. If you think that you didn't make it, work out why you think that. Bear in mind that if you start saying you didn't make some of the journeys that look like your normal journey, the court and TfL will want to know what's special about that trip.
 

WesternLancer

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That’s exactly it, I’m well aware when you tap cards on buses it states freedom passes so I would be dumb to use my dads pass plus I can afford to use my own cards
FWIW underground barriers have an equivalent thing (which is probably how they caught you) - a light lights up when a freedom pass is used and staff at barriers can see that light - if they think you might not actually be eligible for a freedom pass then they pull you over for questioning using the light to alert them when a freedom pass is used at the barrier.
 

furlong

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You haven't shown us the page with the actual charge on it.
You are only pleading guilty or not guilty to ONE charge which will be stated on one of the other pages.

Don't be confused by the list of 51 entries. You MUST attend the court and then on the day, after the main charge has been dealt with (i.e. you pleaded guilty) you tell them which of the 51 you accept were you and which you don't accept (i.e. the bus ones). They then take this into account when sentencing you. (In reality it usually makes little difference to the sentence, but affects how much compensation you are ordered to pay i.e. fares for those journeys). You can mark up the list in advance crossing out the entries that are wrong and adjusting the total figure, or arrive at court early and ask to meet the prosecutor and sort it out beforehand.

(The form they have supplied can only be signed if all the information on it is correct. On previous threads, when information was wrong, TfL told them to sort it out in court on the day. You can of course contact TfL to ask that same question - What do I do when some of the journeys listed were not mine? - and see if you get the same answer.)
 

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