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Entry: I tapped my wallet to enter a TfL station. My wallet contained both a Monzo card and a Freedom Pass. So basically i used the freedom pass to enter the barrier
The Challenge: A TfL officer stopped me after i crossed the gate and said the yellow light sparked in the barrier so show me what oyster did you use . He asked for the actual card used. Panic-stricken, I said i dont have any oyster i used my monzo card and showed him my monzo card . He took my details.
The Exit: I immediately exited the same station using my Monzo card, which was charged £2.20.
Follow-up: TfL sent a 10-day letter after 2/3 days I replied saying I used my wallet and sent the £2.20 Monzo rbank statemtent, without mentioning the Freedom Pass. TfL then sent a link asking for my full Monzo journey history, which I ignored due to severe anxiety as they will find out the missing entry.
Current Status: It has been 3.5 months with no reply. I have severe mental health issues, am on medication, and reports says i suffer from self-harm im under psychologist care also got psychological reports which i have been suffering from 8/9 months . will that help for any mitigation if the sjpn ever arrives?
Should I just stay quiet and hope they drop the case because they never physically found or confiscated the Freedom Pass from me, or is it highly likely they will still prosecute me? as i heard they have six month rule to prosecute which in my case ends in 26 august
What did TfL's letter they sent you accuse you of?
What station did you enter at? Depending how the station is designated under ticketing regulations may change whether you have committed an offence. This is because you have not undertaken a journey. I think that in a compulsory ticket area you must have a ticket in order to enter the station.
Sorry that I'm just giving you another 'holding' reply - TfL are not my area of knowledge. However, it will be useful to know the answer to my questions and those asked by @paninaro so the experts on TfL can advise.
Could you please upload all communication between yourself and TfL? Blur out any names or IDs that could be used to identify you personally.
They would have needed to collect the pass from you. Obviously they can check CCTV and the gate logs but I am sure the opportunity to do this has passed.
The way I read it, OP entered the station, having intended to use their Monzo card, but the freedom pass registered on the barrier instead. Does this then make a different reaction on the barrier - orange light? A revenue protection staff member saw the orange light as the OP went through the barrier, and questioned them. The OP then aborted their journey, and left the same station, having not travelled, tapping out with their Monzo card.
I may have understood wrong, but that is how the situation appears to me.
Could it be that the freedom pass legitimately belongs to the OP but was not valid for the journey in question? Is this a thing? I don't know what freedom passes are to be totally honest.
Should I just stay quiet and hope they drop the case because they never physically found or confiscated the Freedom Pass from me, or is it highly likely they will still prosecute me? as i heard they have six month rule to prosecute which in my case ends in 26 august
What do you think they might prosecute you for? If you had a Freedom Pass in your wallet that's not yours, that's not illegal in itself, but using it would be.
They may have concluded that observation by the ticket barrier staff is not of itself sufficient. If it wasn't your card, you got away with it by presenting the Monzo card. Card clash is a reason why having someone else's Freedom card alongside legitimate means of paying for travel is a dangerous idea and liable to lead to false accusations at the very best.
Card clash is a reason why having someone else's Freedom card alongside legitimate means of paying for travel is a dangerous idea and liable to lead to false accusations at the very best.
...this isn't necessarily true. For example, between 0900-0929 on a weekday an old person's Freedom Pass will open the barriers at a station which has both TfL and non-TfL services, such as West Ealing or Barking, though it isn't yet valid on the non-TfL services.
That being said, it is far more likely that our OP was attempting to misuse the Freedom Pass because had it been their pass, they would have shown it and the inspector would have checked it and moved on, possibly with verbal advice about not getting on a National Rail train before 0930 if applicable.
This is, with due respect, a rather gullible inference.
Yes, a signal will show on ticket gates when certain types of ticket or pass are used to pass through.
It is possible, because...
...this isn't necessarily true. For example, between 0900-0929 on a weekday an old person's Freedom Pass will open the barriers at a station which has both TfL and non-TfL services, such as West Ealing or Barking, though it isn't yet valid on the non-TfL services.
That being said, it is far more likely that our OP was attempting to misuse the Freedom Pass because had it been their pass, they would have shown it and the inspector would have checked it and moved on, possibly with verbal advice about not getting on a National Rail train before 0930 if applicable.
It can be valid at that station but not for the journey subsequently made (ie at the last station in the validity area it is clearly only valid for journeys in one direction - but unless the barriers are platform specific they can’t know which way you’re going.
We are getting lost in the weeds here. It's quite obvious the OP has a Freedom Pass that is not theirs, they used it to tap in, and then did not show it to the inspector and claimed to have tapped using a bank card.
We don't know what happens in circumstances where people advance a defence which is untrue and requires investigation; it may be the case that TfL simply let this run up to the 6 month timescale and then prosecute. It is unlikely this will be resolved with a warning, but it is also possible that no further action gets taken due to a lack of evidence available.
The Freedom Pass you had used 26-February to enter the TfL station (you don't mention which): is it legitimately registered to you? If not:
a) Why is it in your possession?
b) Why did you use it on 26-February?
c) how often and for how long have you also used it?
d) Does your stated medical condition include a medically-evidenced higher likelihood of you doing this; and of giving false information in the ways you describe you did; or is medically-evidenced that it will be seriously exacerbated in the event of a prosecution against you*.
* Your "mitigation" needs to follow TfL's own Revenue Protection Policy: 8.2 We will have regard to the following factors against prosecution:
d. The offender has pre-existing mental health issues or a disability supported by satisfactory medical proof from a medical expert in the relevant field.
I wouldn’t say this is true. Do you have any evidence they can’t? Certainly from a data perspective it wouldn’t be hard to lookup a tap and the corresponding number if you have a time and specific gate, which they can easily look up on CCTV. There have certainly been articles in the past that suggest they have done exactly this to help police track criminals.
While they might not this time they quite likely have to capability to do so.
Either they have and the OP just hasn't recieved the letter yet, or they haven't within the time they'd need to and they have got away with that part, I do admit the latter is more likely.
When I worked on stations revenue staff would advise me to tap my staff pass 3 times to help identify when a suspected dodgy freedom pass or child oyster was used. The three consecutive same (staff pass) oyster numbers helped easily locate the preceeding freedom pass of interest in a long list of hundreds or even thousands taps. So it's definitely possible.
I don't know why LU haven't followed up in this case. I'm actually surprised they were satisfied with the OP presenting their Monzo card; usually they're like a dog with a bone once they see those orange LEDs on the gate.
This implies that either OP has tapped in with the Monzo card, or has used the Monzo card enough that the contactless back-office system has autocompleted the origin for them. This will be an incredibly useful defence mitigation for OP, if they do claim that they had intended to use contactless. (If that card has never been used before, they would be charged at least £7)
I have severe mental health issues, am on medication, and reports says i suffer from self-harm im under psychologist care also got psychological reports which i have been suffering from 8/9 month
Assuming that freedom pass isn't yours, have you considered applying for it? Some types of psychotropic medication automatically disqualify you from driving, which in turn may potentially lead to eligibility for a freedom pass.
It might be helpful if you could either show us a copy of that letter and reply (with personal details redacted), or a summary/description of the letter and your reply.
This implies that either OP has tapped in with the Monzo card, or has used the Monzo card enough that the contactless back-office system has autocompleted the origin for them. This will be an incredibly useful defence for OP, if they do claim that they had intended to use contactless.
Sorry, I missed out a step in the chain of causation there. Autocompletion means OP has definitely used that card at that station before, enough times that the back-office will perform the autocompletion. Using that contactless card at that station for a genuine (A->B) journey before implies that OP has had a history of responsibly and legally using that contactless card.
Sorry, I missed out a step of the chain of causation there. Autocompletion means OP has definitely used that card at that station before, enough times that the back-office will perform the autocompletion. Using that contactless card at that station for a genuine (A->B) journey before implies that OP has had a history of responsibly and legally using that contactless card.
Indeed, but that doesn't provide a *defence* for the instance when they were stopped. Perhaps you meant mitigation - that they have used the card before, despite using the Freedom Pass on that occasion?
Indeed, but that doesn't provide a *defence* for the instance when they were stopped. Perhaps you meant mitigation - that they have used the card before, despite using the Freedom Pass on that occasion?
No thread-views and.no response from OP, since Tuesday's opening post. Probably worth us pausing until we hear back from them, with their answers to our collective questions.
My case is a bit critical , i am writing every answers part by part with the full story so that you guys better understand the scenario bear with me till then kindly, thank you
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Attached below screenshots first two screenshot is my reply to the 10 day standard letter they send to everyone and third photo is the reply from tfl which ignored n never replied
I came to London in October last year. My grandparents were already living here before I arrived. In November, they applied for a Freedom Pass using my email address. Due to a mistake during the application process, a Freedom Pass was issued in my name, but it had my grandparent’s photograph on it.
As soon as I received the Freedom Pass, I emailed the council and informed them that there had been a mistake and that the pass should be revoked because it had been issued under my name incorrectly. I also provided the reference details. However, after sending that email, I never received any reply or further communication from them.
The Freedom Pass remained with me, and on some occasions I used it, approximately 10–15 times.
On 26th February, I was travelling from the station near my house. My wallet contained several cards together, including my bank card and the Freedom Pass. When I tapped at the gate, an orange light appeared, and I was stopped by TfL staff.
They repeatedly asked me to hand over the Oyster or card I had used and warned that they could involve the police if I did not cooperate. I told them that I had used my bank card and did not hand over the Freedom Pass. They then asked for my personal details, which I provided.(even the solicitor was surprised that they didnt confiscate it from me by having me chdcked bc they dont usually let you go without it but still i was so adamant on denying that i dont have anything on me i think they gave up also it was a routined patrol i think bc there weere 7/8 officers with security)
I did not continue my journey and exited from the same station. When I tapped out using my bank card, I noticed that only £2.20 was charged instead of the higher incomplete journey fare that is usually charged when someone taps out with a different card from the one used to tap in.
Later, I received a standard 10-day letter asking for my explanation of the incident. I replied and explained the situation, including the fact that money had been deducted from my bank card and that the bank statement showed my name.
After this, they emailed me requesting additional proof because the bank statement did not show the exact travel time. They sent me a link and asked me to provide a screenshot of the journey history.
When I checked the journey history through the link, I noticed that there was no tap-in showing for my bank card, but there was a tap-out entry. I understood that this was because the initial tap had likely registered the Freedom Pass while the tap-out was completed using my bank card.
During this period, I also spoke with a solicitor who deals with TfL and railway-related matters. I paid around £200 for an initial consultation. The solicitor advised me to keep copies of the email I had originally sent to the council reporting the Freedom Pass issue, as this could help show that I had informed them about the mistake from the beginning. The solicitor also advised me to gather supporting documents such as medical documents and good character references in case they became necessary later.
But the freedom pass being on my name when i asked the solicitor what migt happen he said it doesnt matter it was councils mistake. They mentioned that the matter could possibly result in a warning or settlement depending on the circumstances.
However, the solicitor also explained that for them to formally represent me and send legal correspondence on my behalf, the fees would be around £600, which is a very significant amount for me financially at the moment.
At the same time, I still do not fully understand what exact evidence or information TfL actually has regarding the Freedom Pass itself, especially because they never confiscated it or directly mentioned detailed findings about it. Because of this uncertainty, I have been unsure whether making further admissions or sending additional explanations before knowing the exact allegation would be the right decision.
Since then, more than three months and around twenty days have passed, and I have not received any additional communication from TfL. From what I researched, CCTV footage is usually not retained for a very long period, so I am currently unsure what may happen next. The uncertainty of the situation has made me very anxious and confused about what the best step forward would be.
MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IS WILL THEY SILENTLY DROP THE MATTER FOR LACK OF EVIDENCE ?
Sorry, I missed out a step in the chain of causation there. Autocompletion means OP has definitely used that card at that station before, enough times that the back-office will perform the autocompletion. Using that contactless card at that station for a genuine (A->B) journey before implies that OP has had a history of responsibly and legally using that contactless card.
Unless anyone has any insider TFL knowledge, I doubt anyone can definitively answer it.
I'm 100% not an expert, but at the least I would get the letters that the solicitors mentioned, just in case you need them at short notice, rather than find yourself being unable to do so. That way, you're prepared for either scenario.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
