Fraudulent Trainline Refunds

[Energy]

It’s not like I buy open return tickets everyday then refund them. 12 refunds in a year is what I made, and there were used tickets in between them so it’s not really habitual, is it? I only refunded the tickets I didn’t use one leg of.

Either way Trainline's refund policy allows you to refund part of the ticket so you aren't in the wrong.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Re: Trainline Refunds

We've been investigating industry data and have been led to believe you are potentially claiming excessive refunds on West Midlands services and these refunds have been highlighted as potentially fraudulent.

We have details of your refund requests made which appear to be fraudulent together with the amount repayable to West Midlands Trains. Please respond to us within 7 days by email to digitalfraudteam@wmtrains.co.uk quoting the reference number in the subject field.

Based on your response the decision will be to either (a) offer you the opportunity to repay any claims that have proved to have been made fraudulently; or (b) pass your file to West Midlands Trains Prosecutors or the British Transport Police for further action to be taken.

If option (a) is chosen you will be given our bank details upon our receipt of your response.

this response from them seems very threatening and full of scare tactics, surely shouldn't an initial e mail be more , calm and mentioning a concern has been flagged and asking for a response rather than mentioning offering bank details to pay and mentioning police ?

 

[Watershed]

this response from them seems very threatening and full of scare tactics, surely shouldn't an initial e mail be more , calm and mentioning a concern has been flagged and asking for a response rather than mentioning offering bank details to pay and mentioning police ?

But then they wouldn't be able to extract inflated settlements, would they...

This whole exercise sounds very much like a fishing expedition. I would be surprised if they had anywhere near enough evidence for a fraud prosecution, let alone a conviction, here. Of course they know that most people will be afraid of the police getting involved and will be happy to settle to make the matter go away.

It's disgraceful.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

But then they wouldn't be able to extract inflated settlements, would they...

This whole exercise sounds very much like a fishing expedition. I would be surprised if they had anywhere near enough evidence for a fraud prosecution, let alone a conviction, here. Of course they know that most people will be afraid of the police getting involved and will be happy to settle to make the matter go away.

It's disgraceful.

100% agreed

 

[Energy]

But then they wouldn't be able to extract inflated settlements, would they...

This whole exercise sounds very much like a fishing expedition. I would be surprised if they had anywhere near enough evidence for a fraud prosecution, let alone a conviction, here. Of course they know that most people will be afraid of the police getting involved and will be happy to settle to make the matter go away.

It's disgraceful.

Fully agreed. Treating their passengers guilty until proven innocent.

The OP's 12 times in 12 months will be higher than average but isn't unreasonably high, and they are entitled to refund the return leg if not used.

 

[gray1404]

I just want to throw the other option out there which is to not respond to the email at this point. It is purely a fishing exhibition and it is for them to provide more details. I would actually be very cautious about entering into dialogue with them at this point in time as it would be so easy to say something that could be twisted and used against you later on. I would therefore not reply at this point personally.

 

[Deerfold]

It’s not like I buy open return tickets everyday then refund them. 12 refunds in a year is what I made, and there were used tickets in between them so it’s not really habitual, is it? I only refunded the tickets I didn’t use one leg of.

Is it possible for you to answer the other questions asked so we can fully understand what's been happening?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Is it possible for you to answer the other questions asked so we can fully understand what's been happening?

I don’t want to tread on anyone’s toes, but I understand why @Nikki might not want to quote exact stations. So you might find it easier to tell us
- the cost of the return ticket you bought
- the cost of the single ticket for the journey (I’m sorry if you need to do some research to find that)
- the amount of the refund you got each time you claimed one.

If you can tell us the name of the ticket you bought (it might be something like ‘Anytime Day Return’) that would be helpful too as different types of tickets sometimes have different rules.

 

[AlterEgo]

I just want to throw the other option out there which is to not respond to the email at this point. It is purely a fishing exhibition and it is for them to provide more details. I would actually be very cautious about entering into dialogue with them at this point in time as it would be so easy to say something that could be twisted and used against you later on. I would therefore not reply at this point personally.

This is looking like the best advice at the moment.

 

[RPI]

Surely there must be more to this? Are the tickets by any chance a very short journey, such as Five Ways to Birmingham Stations? Again, even if that was the case it seems like a fishing trip from what has been posted.

 

[island]

Surely there must be more to this? Are the tickets by any chance a very short journey, such as Five Ways to Birmingham Stations? Again, even if that was the case it seems like a fishing trip from what has been posted.

The difference between single and return on that journey is only 40p so no refund would be available as it'd be swallowed up by the admin fee.

 

[Haywain]

If the OP is claiming these refunds genuinely, I think they need to have a look at how much money is being unnecessarily added to Trainline's coffers. 12 refunds a year is up to £120 in admin fees.

 

[Deerfold]

If the OP is claiming these refunds genuinely, I think they need to have a look at how much money is being unnecessarily added to Trainline's coffers. 12 refunds a year is up to £120 in admin fees.

To be compared against how much they save on the returns when they do use them.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Looking at the WMT network, and fares tables, it seems quite difficult to find examples where the difference between the Anytime Return Fare and the Anytime Single would exceed £10 to make a refund worthwhile. For example, Hereford to Birmingham. Anytime Day Return £23. Anytime Day Single £21.30. No refund due. But if, say, Trainline had refunded £1.50, calculated as 50% of £23 less £10, this would not be the OP's problem, but Trainline's. So for some more help, perhaps the OP could provide

- the cost of the return ticket you bought
- the cost of the single ticket for the journey (I’m sorry if you need to do some research to find that)
- the amount of the refund you got each time you claimed one.

 

[AlterEgo]

Trainline charges admin fees on a sliding scale for low value fares.

 

[Buzby]

As they have no proof (they would have said) perhaps changing your ticket supplier should be your first task. As for refunds, last month I was in a similar situation between Glasgow and Edinburg. With an advanced saver return, and I returned by bus as it was more convenient than waiting 2hrs for the booked train. It turned out with an advance single, the cost difference was £5 more than the return I had originally bought! So I still saved, even though I never used the return portion.

No wonder punters are confused!

 

[spag23]

My sense is that they are trying to scare people into settling.

Or warning people with an "unusual" refund history that, in future, they are now "on their radar"?

 

[Energy]

As they have no proof (they would have said) perhaps changing your ticket supplier should be your first task.

The email to respond is for wmtrains which suggests they are investigating refunded returns rather than the retailer, trainline.

A couple of years ago wmtrains did a phising exercise on their own staff with an email pretending to be a bonus. It wouldn't suprise me that they'd try scaring their customers into paying for valid refunds.

 

[superkopite]

The OP's 12 times in 12 months will be higher than average but isn't unreasonably high, and they are entitled to refund the return leg if not used.

It may of may not be higher than average when you factor in the total amount of tickets purchased in that 12-month period.

If the OP only bought 12 and refunded 12, in that 12-month period, that is very alarming and a 100% refund rate. However, if the OP bought 120 tickets within that 12 month period and only refunded 12, that's a much more sensible 10% refund rate

 

[Starmill]

The email to respond is for wmtrains which suggests they are investigating refunded returns rather than the retailer, trainline.

A couple of years ago wmtrains did a phising exercise on their own staff with an email pretending to be a bonus. It wouldn't suprise me that they'd try scaring their customers into paying for valid refunds.

That's not quite the same thing, for the avoidence of doubt. Phising involves malicious communications, usually emails or texts, which say things that aren't true. A "fishing trip" in this context, is an attempt to secure a settlement by the use of evidence which is represented accurately, but which doesn't actually suggest guilt of an offence, often without even alleging an offence has been committed.

Of course you're right that in both cases just ignoring the messages is a sensible response.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2023 ==

Looking at the WMT network, and fares tables, it seems quite difficult to find examples where the difference between the Anytime Return Fare and the Anytime Single would exceed £10 to make a refund worthwhile. For example, Hereford to Birmingham. Anytime Day Return £23. Anytime Day Single £21.30. No refund due. But if, say, Trainline had refunded £1.50, calculated as 50% of £23 less £10, this would not be the OP's problem, but Trainline's. So for some more help, perhaps the OP could provide

There are quite a large number of such examples though, for example Nuneaton to London Anytime Return at £124.10 minus the single at £72.20, minus an admin fee of up to £10, so £41.90 refund due.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2023 ==

It’s not like I buy open return tickets everyday then refund them. 12 refunds in a year is what I made, and there were used tickets in between them so it’s not really habitual, is it? I only refunded the tickets I didn’t use one leg of.

If you haven't at any time been stopped while you're on a train or at a station, and you're 100% certain that you didn't use a ticket and then claim a refund in respect of that portion of the ticket, you can simply ignore this message.

 

[Wolfie]

Or warning people with an "unusual" refund history that, in future, they are now "on their radar"?

"Unusual" is of course not the same as "unlawful".

All rather smacks of what Greater Anglia pulled. Carefully scheduled for sufficiently long after the event for customer records/recollections to be vague.

 

[JBuchananGB]

There are quite a large number of such examples though, for example Nuneaton to London Anytime Return at £124.10 minus the single at £72.20, minus an admin fee of up to £10, so £41.90 refund due.

I was trying to think of unbarriered stations in such a range of Birmingham where a bus return journey might be a viable alternative.

 

[Starmill]

I was trying to think of unbarriered stations in such a range of Birmingham where a bus return journey might be a viable alternative.

Oh sorry, I read it that the bus was connecting with the train rather than replacing it!

Perhaps this goes to show that just guessing is a waste of time and if the OP can't offer us the stations then we probably can't help further.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If @Nikki is still following the thread, it's perhaps worth summarising where we are:
(i) we'd be able to give more focussed advice if we knew a bit more about the tickets in question
(ii) but without knowing that, it's worth pointing out that for your claims to refunds to be valid, they will have needed to be true i.e. that as you told Trainline, you did not make the return journey
(iii) your claim also needs to have been totally accurate - that is, if you quoted an amount of money that you wanted refunded, it was correct by the railway's rules. For tickets described as 'return' tickets, that means (cost of the return ticket) - (cost of a single ticket). There can also be a charge of £10 for each ticket refunded.
(iv) If your claims met points (ii) and (iii), then you have done nothing wrong
(v) if you did not say how much you were asking to be repaid and Trainline gave you more money than they should have done, then that is a problem between you and Trainline, and nothing to do with West Midlands Trains. My view would be that realistically Trainline would not be trying to pursue you for overpayment because of their mistake when (in the great scheme of things - compared to the cost of houses for example) the amount involved is quite small
(vi) if (point (iv)) you have done nothing wrong or (point(v)) you have done nothing which is anything to do with West Midland Trains, the consensus advice is not to respond to the email.
(vii) On the other hand, if you are in the wrong, my view is that you might do well to try to settle this matter as quickly (and cheaply) as possible. If that's the case, respond to the specific questions that West Midlands Trains have asked briefly and honestly, and see if they will let you settle this matter out of court.

 

[some bloke]

What is the advantage of failing to respond rather than writing, if applicable, something like this?

"I understand that my pattern of buying and refunding may seem suspect, but I assure you that I have never attempted to refund any ticket already used or engaged in any other form of ticket fraud.

I preferred to buy returns knowing that I may part-refund them.

I made a conscious decision to suffer the loss of the administration fees, for specific reasons to do with convenience, the value of my time and my own preferences."

 

[fandroid]

I've checked the Trainline scale of fees for refunds.

It's £0.00 fee for refund value up to £1.99
Then it's a sliding scale and the first application of the maximum £10.00 fee occurs for refund values of £13.00 and greater. For a £12.99 refund the fee is £9.00, so the maximum net refund at the lower values is £3.99.

 

[some bloke]

I preferred to buy returns knowing that I may part-refund them.

The aim of being vague here is to try to avoid getting into a position where they ask for evidence to back up claims of having used other forms of transport.

 

[Titfield]

What is the advantage of failing to respond rather than writing, if applicable, something like this?

"I understand that my pattern of buying and refunding may seem suspect, but I assure you that I have never attempted to refund any ticket already used or engaged in any other form of ticket fraud.

I preferred to buy returns knowing that I may part-refund them.

I made a conscious decision to suffer the loss of the administration fees, for specific reasons to do with convenience, the value of my time and my own preferences."

Whilst the onus to prove wrongdoing lies with WMT (rather than the OP proving honesty) I wonder if the OP has any proof that they did indeed travel by bus on occasion and has proof of payment?

 

[Energy]

I preferred to buy returns knowing that I may part-refund them.

I better line might be:

I buy open return tickets expecting to use the full ticket but due to unexpected circumstances I sometimes make alternative travel arrangements on the return leg, such as being driven by a friend. As such the return leg is unused and I am entitled to a partial refund as per the reseller's refund policy.
Or just don't respond, their only evidence is that OP has sometimes refunded tickets while OP has also fully used plenty of other tickets.

That's not quite the same thing, for the avoidence of doubt. Phising involves malicious communications, usually emails or texts, which say things that aren't true. A "fishing trip" in this context, is an attempt to secure a settlement by the use of evidence which is represented accurately, but which doesn't actually suggest guilt of an offence, often without even alleging an offence has been committed.

Of course you're right that in both cases just ignoring the messages is a sensible response.

I was referring to how their emails were hostile in both cases rather than similar circumstances. You are right that phising emails and a "fishing trip" are very different despite their similar names

Whilst the onus to prove wrongdoing lies with WMT (rather than the OP proving honesty) I wonder if the OP has any proof that they did indeed travel by bus on occasion and has proof of payment?

Proof of this wouldn't be a bad idea but it isn't up to the OP to prove themselves innocent.

 

[Starmill]

I was referring to how their emails were hostile in both cases rather than similar circumstances. You are right that phising emails and a "fishing trip" are very different despite their similar names

Yes, of course, no worries at all! Just didn't want any confusion for anyone reading later who may not have come across the terms in this context.