Fraudulent Trainline Refunds

[Nikki]

I received an email today saying I made fraudulent refunds on Trainline. These were open return tickets that were purchased and most of them, just one leg used. So, I would buy open return as I’m not sure whether I could take the bus or not (I don’t drive), or whether I could get a lift or not. I thought it would be okay for me to ask for refund of a leg that was not used. What is the likelihood of it being taken to prosecution? Option 1 they say would be to pay for the fraudulent refunds made and option 2 the case being brought to prosecution. I am panicking at the moment. Are there a lot of cases like this that are pursued in court or would they just offer for me to pay? Personally, I would rather pay (not to admit that I fraud them but to stop me from overthinking). Also, if I settle, will this case be on my record and appear on DBS check?

 

[ainsworth74]

Just to clarify that it's Trainline themselves that are threatening to take court action? Not a train company (like Avanti or West Midlands Railway)?

Secondly when you requested these refunds were you being credited the entire value of the ticket or part of it? If the ticket was £10 and you used one leg were you recieving a refund of £5 or £10 for instance?

 

[Energy]

According to Trainline's website if the return leg is unused you are entitled to partial refund.

How did you request the refund?

 

[Nikki]

Just to clarify that it's Trainline themselves that are threatening to take court action? Not a train company (like Avanti or West Midlands Railway)?

Secondly when you requested these refunds were you being credited the entire value of the ticket or part of it? If the ticket was £10 and you used one leg were you recieving a refund of £5 or £10 for instance?

sorry, it was West Midlands.

I was never credited the entire value, just half of what I originally paid minus admin fee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

Just to clarify that it's Trainline themselves that are threatening to take court action? Not a train company (like Avanti or West Midlands Railway)?

Secondly when you requested these refunds were you being credited the entire value of the ticket or part of it? If the ticket was £10 and you used one leg were you recieving a refund of £5 or £10 for instance?

According to Trainline's website if the return leg is unused you are entitled to partial refund.

How did you request the refund?

Via Trainline. Thing is, I would do this a lot of time that is probably why they flagged it as fraudulent.

 

[Alex C.]

If you've never used a ticket you've requested a refund on, I don't think you've done anything wrong here - however it would depend on the exact circumstances. Others will be able to advise further on that aspect.

Are you sure that none of the return tickets you requested a refund on have ever been scanned at a gateline or by a guard? Without evidence I'm not sure how they'd proceed with this.

 

[OscarH]

I was never credited the entire value, just half of what I originally paid minus admin fee.

This bit strikes me as a bit odd, because a refund for a ticket no longer being required should be calculated as the difference between the returns and the equivalent single fare, minus the admin fee, which is rarely half the value (and usually is less than the admin fee even). The only time half the ticket value should be used is for when one leg is abandoned due to disruption (maybe other similar edge cases I've forgotten)

That said, if you didn't use the tickets, and didn't claim the refund for another reason other than just no longer required then I don't think you've done anything wrong. Any miscalculation isn't your fault.

Are you sure that none of the return tickets you requested a refund on have ever been scanned at a gateline or by a guard?

That'd be very poor if Trainline had proceeded with the refund in that case (and also unlike their usually difficult refund policy)

 

[island]

This bit strikes me as a bit odd, because a refund for a ticket no longer being required should be calculated as the difference between the returns and the equivalent single fare, minus the admin fee, which is rarely half the value (and usually is less than the admin fee even).

Actually, anytime returns are very often double the price of an anytime single. It's not clear what the OP had.

Also, if I settle, will this case be on my record and appear on DBS check?

No.

 

[OscarH]

Actually, anytime returns are very often double the price of an anytime single. It's not clear what the OP had.

Oh interesting, I must not be going to the right places! Basically everywhere I've regularly and travelled the difference is pitiful

 

[Nikki]

If you've never used a ticket you've requested a refund on, I don't think you've done anything wrong here - however it would depend on the exact circumstances. Others will be able to advise further on that aspect.

Are you sure that none of the return tickets you requested a refund on have ever been scanned at a gateline or by a guard? Without evidence I'm not sure how they'd proceed with this.

So, sometimes I use the train to point A but I have open return ticket (this will be scanned) then not take the train on the way back. I would then refund the way back because I didn’t use it. Or was I wrong? I’m sick worried now because I don’t want to go to court for this. I would rather settle if I’ve done anything wrong.

 

[MrJeeves]

So, sometimes I use the train to point A but I have open return ticket (this will be scanned) then not take the train on the way back. I would then refund the way back because I didn’t use it. Or was I wrong? I’m sick worried now because I don’t want to go to court for this. I would rather settle if I’ve done anything wrong.

This doesn't sound wrong at all.

If you buy a return ticket from A to B, then choose to not use the return portion from B to A, you are entitled to a refund of the unused portion of the ticket, which is whatever Trainline decides you're entitled to.

The only question is whether Trainline believes you're refunding the whole ticket, rather than just one leg. This may not be clear when you're refunding the portion of the ticket, though, even if they reduce the value of the refund.

Trainline often reduce the value of a refund to £0 for short journeys with used e-tickets, but it will still let you complete the refund nonetheless.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Nikki. Welcome to the forum. You've not done anything wrong if you've genuinely not used the return portion of your ticket on which you are claiming a refund. However, I'm sure that you can see that it could look suspicious if you've claimed refunds on multiple occasions. Could look as if you're simply claiming one or more refunds when you've travelled but your return ticket hasn't actually been scanned.

If the price of your return fare is essentially twice that of a single, it may be better in future if you don't buy open returns, just singles, if there's any chance that you might not use the return portion.

 

[SuspectUsual]

So, sometimes I use the train to point A but I have open return ticket (this will be scanned) then not take the train on the way back. I would then refund the way back because I didn’t use it. Or was I wrong? I’m sick worried now because I don’t want to go to court for this. I would rather settle if I’ve done anything wrong.

Do either of the stations you use have barriers?

 

[30907]

Oh interesting, I must not be going to the right places! Basically everywhere I've regularly and travelled the difference is pitiful

I suspect you travel on offpeak returns (or perhaps Anytime Day Returns), which are heavily discounted compared to single fares.
Anytime returns on some routes are discounted, but not by so much.

 

[AlterEgo]

How much have you been getting by way of refund each time?

 

[some bloke]

Option 1 they say would be to pay for the fraudulent refunds made and option 2 the case being brought to prosecution. ...Personally, I would rather pay

if I settle, will this case be on my record and appear on DBS check?

As there would be no criminal conviction, there would be nothing on a DBS check.

But if you pay rather than explaining, there might be some record making it more likely that in future you would be prosecuted for an innocent mistake, and/or hassled for an unusual but innocent pattern of buying/refunding.

Those could be additional reasons to explain rather than pay, if you haven't done anything wrong.

If you upload the correspondence with personal/identifying details obscured, that may help people give advice.


Your (first) reply may end up being something brief to the effect of,

"I would be grateful if you could clarify what the problem seems to be.

To my knowledge I have acted entirely within the rules, though I do understand that frequently refunding tickets like this could arouse suspicion.

I have never used any portion of a ticket before or after applying for a refund for it.
[if you are absolutely sure of this]

[perhaps include circumstances/reasons for buying returns in the first place, and for changes of mind]

Please let me know if there is specific information you would like."

 

[Nikki]

@Nikki. Welcome to the forum. You've not done anything wrong if you've genuinely not used the return portion of your ticket on which you are claiming a refund. However, I'm sure that you can see that it could look suspicious if you've claimed refunds on multiple occasions. Could look as if you're simply claiming one or more refunds when you've travelled but your return ticket hasn't actually been scanned.

If the price of your return fare is essentially twice that of a single, it may be better in future if you don't buy open returns, just singles, if there's any chance that you might not use the return portion.

But what do I do now? This is a lesson learned the hard way, I guess. Would they rather take this to court or just have me pay my genuine refunds?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

Do either of the stations you use have barriers

Do either of the stations you use have barriers?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Because the only station with barriers will be in Birmingham, other stations don’t have that especially my local one.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no

OK. If you used any ticket to pass through a barrier and then refunded it, they will know this. If you didn't, that's fine.

Can you produce any evidence that you travelled by other means on the dates you refunded the return portion of your ticket? Payment for a bus ticket on a bank / credit card statement? Someone who gave you a lift prepared to tell WMT this? Purchases en route?

 

[Nikki]

OK. If you used any ticket to pass through a barrier and then refunded it, they will know this. If you didn't, that's fine.

Can you produce any evidence that you travelled by other means on the dates you refunded the return portion of your ticket? Payment for a bus ticket on a bank / credit card statement? Someone who gave you a lift prepared to tell WMT this? Purchases en route?

Thing is, the refunds were made last year. I now don’t remember who gave me a lift and what circumstances I was on those days. If it was just a month or week ago, I would then be able to remember everything. On buses, I would pay by cash as their machines don’t work all the time so safer to use cash than risk not being able to board because they don’t accept cards on that day.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you have a copy of Trainline's email? What they say is very important and will help us advise you how - and even if - to respond.

 

[323235]

If you have claimed a refund for half a ticket in line with Trainline rules and have not used the part that has been refunded then I don’t see why you need to reveal all those details of who have you a lift etc because it is up to them to provide solid evidence of your guilt.

There will be no evidence of tickets being scanned or any evidence to prove you used them or requesting a refund for more than you are entitled to and you should keep a copy of the train line rules that allow it as evidence.

I’d definitely not accept the settlement but fight the case to the end on the basis of knowing you are innocent of any wrongdoing.

 

[some bloke]

But what do I do now?

1. Please think about the fact that they'd have to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. Fraud prosecutions are not very common. Sending a scary letter hoping someone will pay up is a lot easier than prosecuting for fraud without strong evidence.

2. Please upload the correspondence with identifying details obscured.

3. Please clarify some basic facts about what you did:

I would do this a lot of time

How many times?

and:

How much have you been getting by way of refund each time?

4. Could you please explain why you kept buying returns - when you'd found from experience that you might well part-refund them later and have to pay the admin fee - rather than buying singles? This may be a question the company have in mind.

5. You can then, on the basis of giving this additional information on here and getting more advice, draft a reply to the company and post it here for comment.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

4. Could you please explain why you kept buying returns - when you'd found from experience that you might well part-refund them later and have to pay the admin fee - rather than buying singles?

I don't know the precise journey here, but with returns often costing similar to singles, this may be better for multiple reasons
1. They say they could get the train or the bus home, so having that option is good.
2. Refunding half a return would likely save them money over buying a single anyway, even with an admin fee.

 

[maniacmartin]

2. Refunding half a return would likely save them money over buying a single anyway, even with an admin fee.

Not according to the Trainline website:

the refund you are due is not always 50% of the full ticket cost, the refund is calculated by subtracting the cost of an equivalent single ticket from the price paid, meaning there’s not always a refundable value remaining.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Not according to the Trainline website:

ah thanks for correcting me, the only refund I've ever done is a full Avanti ticket due to a strike, so I didn't know about that.
That makes me start to wonder how much this refund must've been worth then.

 

[Nikki]

Do you have a copy of Trainline's email? What they say is very important and will help us advise you how - and even if - to respond.

Re: Trainline Refunds

We've been investigating industry data and have been led to believe you are potentially claiming excessive refunds on West Midlands services and these refunds have been highlighted as potentially fraudulent.

We have details of your refund requests made which appear to be fraudulent together with the amount repayable to West Midlands Trains. Please respond to us within 7 days by email to digitalfraudteam@wmtrains.co.uk quoting the reference number in the subject field.

Based on your response the decision will be to either (a) offer you the opportunity to repay any claims that have proved to have been made fraudulently; or (b) pass your file to West Midlands Trains Prosecutors or the British Transport Police for further action to be taken.

If option (a) is chosen you will be given our bank details upon our receipt of your response.

 

[maniacmartin]

If the return tickets in question actually are double the price of the single, then there is little benefit to purchasing a return if unsure whether one will be using the return portion - the only things I can think of being reserving a seat on a busy service and the convenience of having the ticket ready to use if rushing for the return train. When you take into account the admin fee, it makes even less sense for the OP to keep purchasing these tickets, which they lose money on every time they get a lift or take the bus.

What Trainline and/or WM Trains will be thinking is that you travelled on the return legs of them and have been requesting a refund for the once that you managed to travel on without them getting scanned. To be honest, it seems like the most plausible explanation to me too. Obviously we on the forum don't know if that was the case, but if you have indeed used the return portions of the tickets, proceed with caution. My guess is that if the tickets weren't scanned then they have no firm evidence and its just a fishing expedition, but maybe they have some other evidence that isn't immediately obvious.

 

[Nikki]

1. Please think about the fact that they'd have to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. Fraud prosecutions are not very common. Sending a scary letter hoping someone will pay up is a lot easier than prosecuting for fraud without strong evidence.

2. Please upload the correspondence with identifying details obscured.

3. Please clarify some basic facts about what you did:

How many times?

and:


4. Could you please explain why you kept buying returns - when you'd found from experience that you might well part-refund them later and have to pay the admin fee - rather than buying singles? This may be a question the company have in mind.

5. You can then, on the basis of giving this additional information on here and getting more advice, draft a reply to the company and post it here for comment.

If the return tickets in question actually are double the price of the single, then there is little benefit to purchasing a return if unsure whether one will be using the return portion - the only things I can think of being reserving a seat on a busy service and the convenience of having the ticket ready to use if rushing for the return train. When you take into account the admin fee, it makes even less sense for the OP to keep purchasing these tickets, which they lose money on every time they get a lift or take the bus.

What Trainline and/or WM Trains will be thinking is that you travelled on the return legs of them and have been requesting a refund for the once that you managed to travel on without them getting scanned. To be honest, it seems like the most plausible explanation to me too. Obviously we on the forum don't know if that was the case, but if you have indeed used the return portions of the tickets, proceed with caution. My guess is that if the tickets weren't scanned then they have no firm evidence and its just a fishing expedition, but maybe they have some other evidence that isn't immediately obvious.

It was/is more convenient for me to have a readily available ticket so I can get on a train anytime on that day and if no one is available to pick me up or buses are running late like they always are. I would like to keep options for me available when commuting. And while of course I’d lose money by paying the admin fee when refunding, I thought it’s a little price I’d pay for convenience. Plus it’s still my money I’d argue even if it’s just £1.

 

[AlterEgo]

It was/is more convenient for me to have a readily available ticket so I can get on a train anytime on that day and if no one is available to pick me up or buses are running late like they always are. I would like to keep options for me available when commuting. And while of course I’d lose money by paying the admin fee when refunding, I thought it’s a little price I’d pay for convenience. Plus it’s still my money I’d argue even if it’s just £1.

Do you understand why this doesn’t look like a plausible excuse? I’ve never heard of anyone buying returns and habitually throwing away the second leg and losing lots of money, especially if, as you say, you only took it out for some sort of “insurance” on the off chance that both the buses were late and nobody could give you a lift.

Which stations are your tickets valid from and to?

 

[Nikki]

Do you understand why this doesn’t look like a plausible excuse? I’ve never heard of anyone buying returns and habitually throwing away the second leg and losing lots of money, especially if, as you say, you only took it out for some sort of “insurance” on the off chance that both the buses were late and nobody could give you a lift.

Which stations are your tickets valid from and to

Do you understand why this doesn’t look like a plausible excuse? I’ve never heard of anyone buying returns and habitually throwing away the second leg and losing lots of money, especially if, as you say, you only took it out for some sort of “insurance” on the off chance that both the buses were late and nobody could give you a lift.

Which stations are your tickets valid from and to?

Do you understand why this doesn’t look like a plausible excuse? I’ve never heard of anyone buying returns and habitually throwing away the second leg and losing lots of money, especially if, as you say, you only took it out for some sort of “insurance” on the off chance that both the buses were late and nobody could give you a lift.

Which stations are your tickets valid from and to?

It’s not like I buy open return tickets everyday then refund them. 12 refunds in a year is what I made, and there were used tickets in between them so it’s not really habitual, is it? I only refunded the tickets I didn’t use one leg of.

 

[Wolfie]

Re: Trainline Refunds

We've been investigating industry data and have been led to believe you are potentially claiming excessive refunds on West Midlands services and these refunds have been highlighted as potentially fraudulent.

We have details of your refund requests made which appear to be fraudulent together with the amount repayable to West Midlands Trains. Please respond to us within 7 days by email to digitalfraudteam@wmtrains.co.uk quoting the reference number in the subject field.

Based on your response the decision will be to either (a) offer you the opportunity to repay any claims that have proved to have been made fraudulently; or (b) pass your file to West Midlands Trains Prosecutors or the British Transport Police for further action to be taken.

If option (a) is chosen you will be given our bank details upon our receipt of your response.

Lots of "potentially" in there. My sense is that they are trying to scare people into settling. I notice that their options (a) and (b) both assume wrongdoing.