Fraudulent Ticket

[concerned wife]

Hi all, been recommended by a family friend to post on this forum and would appreciate your help. We as a family have been struggling a bit in recent months but hubby has been doing some extra hours leaving us with some extra money.......or so I thought.

In the last few months he has been travelling to and from work. Today I found out this week he is using a fake printed ticket that looks like an original and obviously not been paying the full amount. He has got this through a friend but it came to a halt last Friday (he only tells me last night). It is a monthly season ticket and I have seen them they look like any other to me. He said he was held by transport police but not arrested as they have confirmed it is a fake ticket but they kept it to do further investigations and was told a summons or transport police would be in contact in due course.

He has owned up as he had to buy a new real ticket this week and I wondered why our account was down a few hundred. As he was not arrested we dont know what the transgression would be in a court of law. My husband has a colourful past and is currently on a suspended sentence for an altercation and I am concerned this will now be invoked leaving me and the family to fend with no wage earner for this idiotic mistake. He will lose his job and we possibly might lose the house from it and everything, I am bloody scared, tearful infact.

Can somebody tell me what the charge would be after investigations? Would it be criminal or a railway byelaw? I really dont know what to do at present and am shaking.

Thanks for any help you can offer in advance.

 

[455driver]

It would probably be classed as fraud which is a criminal offence.
In a few months the train company (or their agent) will probably send your husband a letter asking for his side of events, but if they feel they have enough evidence they could go straight to prosecution

 

[concerned wife]

It would probably be classed as fraud which is a criminal offence.
In a few months the train company (or their agent) will probably send your husband a letter asking for his side of events, but if they feel they have enough evidence they could go straight to prosecution

I assume the chances of an out of court settlement would be slim?

 

[LexyBoy]

Oh dear.

My understanding is that cases like this are usually treated as Fraud, which has higher possible penalties than offences under the Regulation of the Railways Act or the Railway Byelaws (both of which are also criminal, rather than civil, law; prosecutions under the Byelaws are however non-recordable).

If you have money, you can often buy your way out of such a situation, however this does not look like an option for you. I would visit your Citizen's Advice Bureau for some advice on what legal aid may be available to you, and what help could be available if a prosecution were successful (which, from what you have said, is very probable if it goes to court).

It may be useful to know the train company involved and the value of the fares avoided (i.e. monthly cost and how long he was using the fake ticket).

 

[Greenback]

I assume the chances of an out of court settlement would be slim?

Very slim, in my view, as this is now a police matter.

 

[concerned wife]

The company was EC and value approx 580. He hasnt said how long he has been using this as I broke down. The ticket he had was only used this week.

 

[tony6499]

I would get some proper legal advice due to the other circumstances so that you're prepared for any eventuality

 

[cf111]

A fake ticket being involved makes this very unlikely to be dealt with sympathetically by the authorities. The involvement of the police makes it difficult for me to see how this could be dealt with out of court. I think this could very well result in a fraud charge being raised.

The only advice I can give you is to contact a local solicitor as soon as possible.

 

[Haywain]

Very slim, in my view, as this is now a police matter.

I agree with this. Police forces are not known for agreeing to out of court settlements.

 

[concerned wife]

The police are not involved they were called initially but asked not to intervene at present as the company wanted to do further checks and deal with it and investigate further and they said they would be in touch.

 

[Titfield]

Yes to echo LexyBoys words oh dear indeed.

I wonder if a lawyer who specialises in transport law would be more appropriate or a lawyer who is used to negotiating "deals" because on the basis of what has been advised it does seem very cut and dried indeed.

The only "angle" that I can think of (and I do not have any idea if this is acceptable, would work or create even more issues) would be to offer up the name of the person who created the fake ticket.

It sounds (and I may be wrong here) that the fake was a very professional copy so the rail company may be more interested in cutting off the source of these tickets.

 

[Greenback]

The only "angle" that I can think of (and I do not have any idea if this is acceptable, would work or create even more issues) would be to offer up the name of the person who created the fake ticket.

It sounds (and I may be wrong here) that the fake was a very professional copy so the rail company may be more interested in cutting off the source of these tickets.

That thought crossed my mind as well. The authorities may well be more interested in who produced the fake ticket, and whether it is related to organised crime or merely an 'enterprising' individual acting alone.

If the OP's spouse cooperates with the investigation and provides information to those investigating, this should work in his favour, but there are no guarantees. Particularly as he is said to have a colourful past and is already on a suspended sentence. So I would still consider it a very serious matter.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I would not expect that East Coast would bother to contact the Police; this is a serious fraud, but they are well equipped to deal with it themselves. And I'm not sure that any 'letter' will be sent out to your husband, as it is likely that enough information was given during the incident for the Company to start a prosecution directly.

While it certainly is a serious matter, the real issue here is not at all complicated, so it does not need one of the solicitors who have some specialisation in Railway Law (they are very expensive! Typically £4k - £6k for forged tickets.), But any local law firm which specialises in Criminal Defence work will have a solicitor who can help you. They will, of course, look for the options that the company will consider on your husband's behalf, such as a settlement, and if there is a prospect of a settlement or of a disclosure of the source of the tickets, then they will be able to do as much as anyone can. And should it go to Court (which is likely), they will do as much as any other law firm in mitigation, reflecting your family's circumstances to attempt to reduce the 'damage'.

Bear in mind, though, that at the very least, the Company will want to claim the full fares for the journeys that have already been made, if it really is something that he started doing this week, then perhaps the 'damage' isn't too great.

The Company's inspectors will have been on the look out for these tickets and probably wouldn't have let them be used for long before spotting one.

I won't enquire about the 'colourful' past, but if it includes theft, fraud or any other gain through deception, then I expect that if it does go to Court, then there might be a fine in the upper hundreds or even over a thousand, and the current 'suspended sentence' is sure to be reviewed, too.

 

[concerned wife]

I would like to start by saying thank you all that have contributed thus far, especially titfield, greenback and DaveNewcastle. As a stranger that does not frequent your forums i appreciate the time you have given me and my family.

It is pretty much not what i want to hear, I cant slleep hence this post early in the morning but we need to come together and prepare and you have all guided and helped me somewhat know what to expect.

I hope against hope they contact me via letter and we can respond accordingly. The issue we have and I am more than happy to cooperate is that my husband says he bought the ticket for cash at liverpool street and that if we needed another disounted ticket then we email his emiail add to see if he could provide one at the discount. My hubby paid literally 15%off the rrpl certainly not worth it. If he paid something stupd then you get the feeling all is not well nut he saved only £80 per week which is still alot but not chap enoguh that he didnt questionit but assumed niot right. Thanks guys

 

[strawberry]

When did you husband last buy an official season Ticket? EC "may' offer an out of court settlement for all season tickets he should have brought and administration charge. It depends how how long the period of fraud lasted. Just be honest with the train company when they write to you -can take up to 6 weeks.

 

[34D]

my husband says he bought the ticket for cash at liverpool street

From a member of the public? Or someone known to him? Or rail staff?

 

[jon0844]

As fake tickets are now so well done, I'm sure that any info that helps the train company identify who is making and selling them could help, although I still think the company will want paying for all the days the ticket was used at the bare minimum.

 

[concerned wife]

From a member of the public? Or someone known to him? Or rail staff?

My partner and friend met the guy who the engaged from gumtree, it was a polish chap. The only have apolish email address for him and were told if they wanted discounted tickets again in the future to email a week before they run out.

 

[tony6499]

Trouble is that he knowingly bought a fraudulent ticket, it doesn't look very good for him. It will be interesting if he gives the email to the BTP and if they catch the ringleaders that may work in his favour but it doesn't look good as the TOCS are trying hard to catch anyone using fakes and break the gangs

 

[concerned wife]

Trouble is that he knowingly bought a fraudulent ticket, it doesn't look very good for him. It will be interesting if he gives the email to the BTP and if they catch the ringleaders that may work in his favour but it doesn't look good as the TOCS are trying hard to catch anyone using fakes and break the gangs

He didnt know it was fraudulent, the price he paid was not indicative it was fraudulent, he didnt save a lot but still saved some money. He was slightly concerned that it did not go through the gateline but as he was always waved through he thought nothing more of it

 

[tony6499]

He didnt know it was fraudulent, the price he paid was not indicative it was fraudulent, he didnt save a lot but still saved some money. He was slightly concerned that it did not go through the gateline but as he was always waved through he thought nothing more of it

Buying railway tickets from Gumtree ? Not paying the proper price for a ticket ?

 

[bb21]

He didnt know it was fraudulent

While I appreciate that you need to stand by your partner and probably have complete trust in him, take a step back and just think about it. The whole episode has "dodgy dealings" written all over it however you look at it, and do you seriously believe that your husband never suspected something was amiss?

 

[najaB]

While I appreciate that you need to stand by your partner and probably have complete trust in him, take a step back and just think about it. The whole episode has "dodgy dealings" written all over it however you look at it, and do you seriously believe that your husband never suspected something was amiss?

To play devil's advocate, maybe he thought it was dodgy but not an out and out fake. For example, a staff member using their discount to buy them. Not a huge difference in the long run, but some people would take advantage of a staff discount that they weren't entitled to, but wouldn't buy goods that were stolen or counterfeit.

 

[tony6499]

To play devil's advocate, maybe he thought it was dodgy but not an out and out fake. For example, a staff member using their discount to buy them. Not a huge difference in the long run, but some people would take advantage of a staff discount that they weren't entitled to, but wouldn't buy goods that were stolen or counterfeit.

Clutching at straws

 

[najaB]

Clutching at straws

I'm not excusing the action, just offering a possible train of thought. As I said, it doesn't make that much difference in the long run.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . As I said, it doesn't make that much difference in the long run.

On the contrary, anyone in the position of the OP's husband who presented such a fabricated 'story' which wrongly incriminated a member of staff and which deflected the investigator's attention away from the true source of the forgeries, should expect the outcome to be more severe than if they had told the truth.

Unless your idea of 'devils advocate' is to give advice which deliberately makes thing worse for the person coming here for helpful advice.

 

[najaB]

Unless your idea of 'devils advocate' is to give advice which deliberately makes thing worse for the person coming here for helpful advice.

My comment wasn't intended as advice, and I don't believe that I presented it as such. It was in response to bb21's suggestion that the husband must have known that the ticket was fake. While he most likely knew that there was something dodgy going on, it is possible that he didn't know it was counterfeit. Which, as I believe I said, doesn't actually make that much difference in the long run.

 

[concerned wife]

I can confirm it was not believed fake, he paid nigh on the face value, if he had paid half or less for the ticket than the full face value that would have screamed it but in this case it simply did not. He would not have paid nigh on face value for a fake when it is common sense to pay the little extra for a real one and no concerns

 

[bb21]

I have no desire to form an opinion on whether your partner is guilty, but you must look at this from the train company's point of view. Do you think they will believe you when you make such a claim?

For argument's sake, let's say that your partner suspected that something was not quite right, but did not suspect that it was a fake, why would he think that he was entitled to use an inappropriately discounted ticket? Did he not probe the seller further? If he knew he were not entitled to the discount but went ahead with it anyway, we will end up with pretty much the same fundamental issue.

Perhaps it would be wise to steer well clear of a "friend" like that in the future.

 

[broadgage]

Buying railway tickets from Gumtree ? Not paying the proper price for a ticket ?

I fear that the practice is fairly widespread, and whilst experienced members of this forum know it to be dishonest, others may simply think it is a bargain.

Rail fares/tickets are now so hugely complex, with various complex discounts some of which apply only to on line purchases, that inexperienced persons MIGHT be able to argue that they thought it to be legitimate.

After all, if airline flights, mobile phones, sports shoes, and internet service can be obtained more cheaply on line, then why not rail tickets ?

I should add that I am a site admin of an internet forum (completly unrelated to railways) and that I have deleted numerous adverts for "discounted rail tickets" and banned those who posted these adverts.