Fraud Railcard Help

[paesch164]

Hi all,
Kind of at a loss here so l need of some help.


In March 2024 in I was stopped on my journey from London as my railcard was out of date (wholeheartedly had no idea) and I received a letter a few months later from the fraud prevention team and they advised there were a few other journeys I will be fined for. Sent them an email admitting my fault but that had no intention to commit fraud as was willing to pay any outstanding fines.


However, they just sent me my spreadsheet and there are a couple of journeys in 2022 I requested refunds for travelling from London to Manchester. I contacted Trainline who is the only company I purchase tickets from and there's no record their side of any journeys prior to September 2022.

I have done my own research and gone back through my bank statements and I can see refunds have been issued. I have also gone back through my messages on WhatsApp with family and I can see that:

1. Two of the journeys I cancelled as I changed my plans. Did not make the journey.
2. Two journeys (both advanced singles) I booked the incorrect way round in the Trainline app i.e from Manchester to Euston instead of Euston to Manchester and Trainline exchanged these for me.

All the refunds have legitimate reasons but my question is, if there is no official record of this will I get into more trouble?

Thank you for your help

 

[AlterEgo]

Which train company are you dealing with? Have you received any court summons? Train companies have six months to lay any summary only charges so if you’ve not been summonsed they’re already too late, and you should cease replying to them.

 

[paesch164]

I’m dealing with Chiltern Railways, I received the initial letter and contacted the fraud team via email.
Okay, so they can’t charge me?

 

[30907]

Hi all,
Kind of at a loss here so l need of some help.


In March 2024 in I was stopped on my journey from London as my railcard was out of date (wholeheartedly had no idea) and I received a letter a few months later from the fraud prevention team and they advised there were a few other journeys I will be fined for. Sent them an email admitting my fault but that had no intention to commit fraud as was willing to pay any outstanding fines.


However, they just sent me my spreadsheet and there are a couple of journeys in 2022 I requested refunds for travelling from London to Manchester. I contacted Trainline who is the only company I purchase tickets from and there's no record their side of any journeys prior to September 2022.

I have done my own research and gone back through my bank statements and I can see refunds have been issued. I have also gone back through my messages on WhatsApp with family and I can see that:

1. Two of the journeys I cancelled as I changed my plans. Did not make the journey.
2. Two journeys (both advanced singles) I booked the incorrect way round in the Trainline app i.e from Manchester to Euston instead of Euston to Manchester and Trainline exchanged these for me.

All the refunds have legitimate reasons but my question is, if there is no official record of this will I get into more trouble?

Thank you for your help

Refund fraud and railcard misuse are different sorts of behaviour.

If you can identify legitimate reasons for the refunds then the train company should accept these - we have seen another spreadsheet case very recently where they did so without too much fuss.

Please could you post a copy of the letter, with personal details redacted (and I suggest without the spreadsheet).

 

[paesch164]

Refund fraud and railcard misuse are different sorts of behaviour.

If you can identify legitimate reasons for the refunds then the train company should accept these - we have seen another spreadsheet case very recently where they did so without too much fuss.

Please could you post a copy of the letter, with personal details redacted (and I suggest without the spreadsheet).

This was the most recent email I received from them, I replied to advise I was willing to accept the rail card fares (completely my fault) but the refunds I asked for time to investigate with Trainline. Trainline have just replied saying they have no record of my bookings in Feb 2022 so can’t comment as to why these were refunded.

 

[WesternLancer]

This was the most recent email I received from them, I replied to advise I was willing to accept the rail card fares (completely my fault) but the refunds I asked for time to investigate with Trainline. Trainline have just replied saying they have no record of my bookings in Feb 2022 so can’t comment as to why these were refunded.

Just tell them the truth - clearly explain the legitimate reasons for the refunds in question (at this stage probably don't provide your evidence as you should not really have to) but you could explain for example 'I have contemporaneous copies of e-WhatsApp exchanges with my family from the period that illustrate why my plans changed and why I therefore cancelled the tickets' - i.e. make them specifically ask you to share you private messages to prove it if they want you to do that. On the ones you exchanged because you booked them the wrong way round simply say as you have said here and that the refunds were due to an error you made in booking them by mixing up the origin and destination so you needed to correct that error by refunding them (I assume you then went on to purchase the correct tickets).

Just tell them the truth, but you can preface it with a phrase like 'my recollection of these bookings from over 2 years ago is....'

draft your reply up here if you want people to check it for clarity / if a second opinion on what you want to say might help

If they then go forward to try and prosecute you for those (which as AlterEgo explains would be out of time) - which I think is unlikely anyway - cross that bridge when it comes to it.

 

[AlterEgo]

They can't do anything at this point. Stick the email on snooze and take the win. Very lazy company, frequently going over 6 months meaning they can't prosecute (but they still send threatening letters and emails).

Do not make any comment about any refunds, even if they were legitimate. Say and do nothing.

 

[paesch164]

Just tell them the truth - clearly explain the legitimate reasons for the refunds in question (at this stage probably don't provide your evidence as you should not really have to) but you could explain for example 'I have contemporaneous copies of e-WhatsApp exchanges with my family from the period that illustrate why my plans changed and why I therefore cancelled the tickets' - i.e. make them specifically ask you to share you private messages to prove it if they want you to do that. On the ones you exchanged because you booked them the wrong way round simply say as you have said here and that the refunds were due to an error you made in booking them by mixing up the origin and destination so you needed to correct that error by refunding them (I assume you then went on to purchase the correct tickets).

Just tell them the truth, but you can preface it with a phrase like 'my recollection of these bookings from over 2 years ago is....'

draft your reply up here if you want people to check it for clarity / if a second opinion on what you want to say might help

If they then go forward to try and prosecute you for those (which as AlterEgo explains would be out of time) - which I think is unlikely anyway - cross that bridge when it comes to it.

Thank you for your help. Please see below my draft, please let me know if I need to edit this at all:

"Dear
I hope this email finds you well.
Apologies for the follow-up message, but I wanted to provide additional clarity regarding my ticket refund history. I recently contacted Trainline, and they confirmed they are unable to access ticketing records prior to September 2022. I have attached their confirmation email for your reference.
To assist with this matter, I reviewed my personal records, including WhatsApp conversations with my partner and family, to identify the reasons for past refund requests. I’ve updated the attached spreadsheet accordingly, but for convenience, I’ve summarised the key details below:

1. 20th August 2021 (XXX to XXX - Open Return)
   • Reason for refund: Trip was cancelled as my brother and I decided to stay in London. The journey to XXX was not undertaken.
2. 4th February 2022 (XXX to XXX- Advance Single)
   • Reason for refund: The tickets were initially booked in reverse. I contacted Trainline to correct this, and they exchanged the tickets for me.
3. 6th February 2022 (XXX to XXX - Advance Single)
   • Reason for refund: This was part of the corrected journey above. However, I missed the last train on Sunday, 6th February, and stayed overnight at my partner’s flat. The following morning (7th February), I purchased a new ticket through Trainline at 6:00 AM for the journey. The original Sunday ticket was refunded as unused.
4. 11th February 2022 (XXX to XXX - Off-Peak Single)
   • Reason for refund: This was a planned visit to XXX but I changed plans to visit a friend instead. The journey to XXX did not take place.

I hope this information helps to clarify the reasons for the refund requests. Please let me know if you require any further details or documentation.
Thank you for your assistance and support in resolving this matter."

I hope this sounds okay?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2024 ==

They can't do anything at this point. Stick the email on snooze and take the win. Very lazy company, frequently going over 6 months meaning they can't prosecute (but they still send threatening letters and emails).

Do not make any comment about any refunds, even if they were legitimate. Say and do nothing.

This is interesting, I'm just a bit scared to not respond as they have my home address and am I right in thinking they can still send a summons?

 

[AlterEgo]

This is interesting, I'm just a bit scared to not respond as they have my home address and am I right in thinking they can still send a summons?

No. They are out of time to prosecute you for the offence where you were stopped.

You should make no comment about the refunds even if they are legitimate. Talking can in some cases unintentionally incriminate you, especially when you are talking about 2-3 year old events. I wouldn't have a clue why I refunded a ticket in 2021 and I wouldn't entertain any request from a company to "prove" their legitimacy. It's up to them to prove it was fraudulent, not for you to prove you were acting properly.

No comment to any and all questions, do not respond to any further correspondence and get on with your life.

 

[paesch164]

Thank you, you have really put my mind at ease!

 

[furlong]

They might be out of time to prosecute the normal offences, but they can still use the civil courts (6 years) to claim money they believe they are owed.

You could take the initiative by making your own calculation of how much they have actually lost by your error (i.e. the total of any 1/3 discounts you shouldn't have taken - or even just the cost of the neglected railcard renewal if you are still entitled to it), simply state that the refunds were all legitimate when your journey plans changed (no need to give details) and offer them the amount you decide is right in settlement, perhaps with a small sum on top to cover reasonable costs - maybe think how much time they should have spent on it at say £19 per hour though nothing if you think it could easily have been resolved on the spot - and send them a cheque in full and final settlement.

 

[paesch164]

They might be out of time to prosecute the normal offences, but they can still use the civil courts (6 years) to claim money they believe they are owed.

You could take the initiative by making your own calculation of how much they have actually lost by your error (i.e. the total of any 1/3 discounts you shouldn't have taken - or even just the cost of the neglected railcard renewal if you are still entitled to it), simply state that the refunds were all legitimate when your journey plans changed (no need to give details) and offer them the amount you decide is right in settlement, perhaps with a small sum on top to cover reasonable costs - maybe think how much time they should have spent on it at say £19 per hour though nothing if you think it could easily have been resolved on the spot - and send them a cheque in full and final settlement.

Okay, noted. I did this calculation and its £260.00 if I had paid the full fare for all the journeys. If I add the £19.00 admin cost per email they have sent this would equate to £317.00.
I will await to hear back from them on the cost

 

[AlterEgo]

Don’t pay them anything. Save yourself £317. They don’t even seem to be mentioning civil recovery and Chiltern - we know - don’t do this. We actually haven’t seen many, if any, civil recovery cases, and the only company who has allegedly done this is GWR.

 

[paesch164]

Don’t pay them anything. Save yourself £317. They don’t even seem to be mentioning civil recovery and Chiltern - we know - don’t do this. We actually haven’t seen many, if any, civil recovery cases, and the only company who has allegedly done this is GWR.

Thank you so much for your help, its really appreciated!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your help. Please see below my draft, please let me know if I need to edit this at all:

"Dear
I hope this email finds you well.
Apologies for the follow-up message, but I wanted to provide additional clarity regarding my ticket refund history. I recently contacted Trainline, and they confirmed they are unable to access ticketing records prior to September 2022. I have attached their confirmation email for your reference.
To assist with this matter, I reviewed my personal records, including WhatsApp conversations with my partner and family, to identify the reasons for past refund requests. I’ve updated the attached spreadsheet accordingly, but for convenience, I’ve summarised the key details below:

1. 20th August 2021 (XXX to XXX - Open Return)
   • Reason for refund: Trip was cancelled as my brother and I decided to stay in London. The journey to XXX was not undertaken.
2. 4th February 2022 (XXX to XXX- Advance Single)
   • Reason for refund: The tickets were initially booked in reverse. I contacted Trainline to correct this, and they exchanged the tickets for me.
3. 6th February 2022 (XXX to XXX - Advance Single)
   • Reason for refund: This was part of the corrected journey above. However, I missed the last train on Sunday, 6th February, and stayed overnight at my partner’s flat. The following morning (7th February), I purchased a new ticket through Trainline at 6:00 AM for the journey. The original Sunday ticket was refunded as unused.
4. 11th February 2022 (XXX to XXX - Off-Peak Single)
   • Reason for refund: This was a planned visit to XXX but I changed plans to visit a friend instead. The journey to XXX did not take place.

I hope this information helps to clarify the reasons for the refund requests. Please let me know if you require any further details or documentation.
Thank you for your assistance and support in resolving this matter."

I hope this sounds okay?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2024 ==


This is interesting, I'm just a bit scared to not respond as they have my home address and am I right in thinking they can still send a summons?

OK - - as you can see there is a difference of opinion on here as to your next steps.

@AlterEgo advises a robust stance of not engaging, which is consistent advice he/she gives in these sorts of scenarios. I don't share that view in your case as I don't think you have anything to hide and would like to hope they would accept your explanations (but there is always a risk they may not) - but it's your call at the end of the day on what you do.

If you were to want to send them something I think your draft is the sort of thing I would say and thus suggest it is OK

But I respect @AlterEgo 's advice and you must do what you think is right (it's you that has to deal with the consequences after all - not any of us random un named strangers on the internet!)

If you do nothing and it does in due course escalate - do head back for further advice.

Either way I would sleep on it for 48 hours before doing anything at all - and see if other people on here offer differing views so you can make an informed decision.

 

[paesch164]

Hiya, thank you so much for this. I made the decision to email them the draft I sent you. They have replied this morning to advise they have dropped the charges in regards to the refunds. (Thank god)
This is the letter via email they sent me.

I did say I was willing to pay the fine in relation to my rail card fines. Such a shame it’s more than I thought it would be. Going to have to scrape some money together

 

[chawky]

Hiya, thank you so much for this. I made the decision to email them the draft I sent you. They have replied this morning to advise they have dropped the charges in regards to the refunds. (Thank god)
This is the letter via email they sent me.

I did say I was willing to pay the fine in relation to my rail card fines. Such a shame it’s more than I thought it would be. Going to have to scrape some money together

That is a shame, I agree with @AlterEgo that not engaging would have been the best option.

However, you are still in a position to reply that they have missed their 6 month court window, and therefore you won’t be engaging with them any further. Or you can just stop replying completely.

If you do decide to pay, at least ask for a breakdown of the calculation.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hiya, thank you so much for this. I made the decision to email them the draft I sent you. They have replied this morning to advise they have dropped the charges in regards to the refunds. (Thank god)
This is the letter via email they sent me.

I did say I was willing to pay the fine in relation to my rail card fines. Such a shame it’s more than I thought it would be. Going to have to scrape some money together

Oh my days why would you pay them?? They cannot charge you for this, so they have no criminal threat against you now. Why would you talk yourself into paying nearly £700 you don't need to?

I beg of people to please learn when to stop talking!

Stop engaging with them. They can't do anything. In big letters one more time -THEY CANNOT PROSECUTE YOU for the railcard stuff.

 

[Haywain]

Oh my days why would you pay them?? They cannot charge you for this, so they have no criminal threat against you now. Why would you talk yourself into paying nearly £700 you don't need to?

I beg of people to please learn when to stop talking!

Stop engaging with them. They can't do anything. In big letters one more time -THEY CANNOT PROSECUTE YOU for the railcard stuff.

However, they would now be in a strong position to seek to recover that money through the civil courts.

 

[paesch164]

They might be out of time to prosecute the normal offences, but they can still use the civil courts (6 years) to claim money they believe they are owed.

However, they would now be in a strong position to seek to recover that money through the civil courts.

These kind of statements are what I'm worried about and I've read other stories of people in the same position as me who asked for a break down and they advised they would and advise this in court with the intention to prosecute.

In all honesty, should I just reply and advise that the six month mark is up so they can't convict me. What s the exact timeline that they can prosecute?

My time line:
Incident happened: 15th March 2024
First letter from Trainline: 14th July 2024
I sent the email to Chiltern: 15th July 2024
Breakdown spreadsheet received: 16th November 2024

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh my days why would you pay them?? They cannot charge you for this, so they have no criminal threat against you now. Why would you talk yourself into paying nearly £700 you don't need to?

I beg of people to please learn when to stop talking!

Stop engaging with them. They can't do anything. In big letters one more time -THEY CANNOT PROSECUTE YOU for the railcard stuff.

Maybe because some people just want to do what they see as 'the right thing' even if it costs to do it.

But at least the OP got both points of view and took an informed decision on what they wanted to do next - which is the benefit of a forum like this.

 

[AlterEgo]

However, they would now be in a strong position to seek to recover that money through the civil courts.

Yes, because the OP keeps replying and intimating they do actually owe money and will pay it back!

These kind of statements are what I'm worried about and I've read other stories of people in the same position as me who asked for a break down and they advised they would and advise this in court with the intention to prosecute.

They cannot *prosecute* you - that means taking you to the Magistrates' Court and charging you with an offence. The very most they can do now is try to recover the money in the County Court, in the way of an unpaid utility bill or similar. This is something they don't usually bother doing - we have never seen it, ever, in years and years and thousands of threads here - and something if they did decide to do you could see off quite quickly by simply paying it.

In all honesty, should I just reply and advise that the six month mark is up so they can't convict me. What s the exact timeline that they can prosecute?

NO! Stop talking! Stop all correspondence! No comment to everything.

My time line:
Incident happened: 15th March 2024

They fouled the deadline on 15th September 2024. At this point you should have ceased corresponding as there was no longer any threat to you.

By continuing to correspond you have gone from having to pay nothing, to thinking you should pay £317, to receiving a demand for £687.60 as you wilfully implicate yourself by replying.

If you'd just stopped talking they would have done what they do with every other case they lazily and crappily fail to send letters in a timely manner for - close it down with no further action.

 

[Hadders]

These cases are always tricky to advise on.

On the one hand train companies normally have six months to lay papers before the court if they wish to pursue a criminal case.

On the other hand the majority of people who seek our help want the matter they are facing to go away with the minimum about of fuss. They are generally happy to pay a sum of money for the certainty of closing matters and avoiding a court case, especially of they know they have done something wrong.

I'm no cheerleader for train companies, and it grieves me that they don't always follow the correct procedures but we do need to understand why some people decide to engage with train companies, when technically they dn't need to.

 

[furlong]

The letter clearly says "before proceeding to prosecution". It would be completely improper for them to send this to you knowing they are out-of-time and as such it's unlikely the agreement would be enforceable - in other words you really would be getting nothing in return. So they must either be envisaging prosecuting a more serious offence where the 6 month limit does not apply or they have made a serious mistake in sending that letter.