Fraud Accusation

[lloiss0]

Hi guys,

I received an email from Northern Rail regarding me allegedly buying tickets without a railcard and short faring journeys. I have always had a railcard, and sent evidence to prove this. I am unsure what journeys I could have short fared on as I have never knowingly done such a thing, and they will not tell me which journeys they think I have done it on either. Instead providing me with a document containing all my rail journeys from Feb 2021 - March 2026. I have looked over this document and everything seems to align with my general travel history with nothing standing out as strange to me, and I relayed this information to them but they keep asking me for more information regarding all my addresses, which university I attended, where my workplace's have been and also other 'residential places' I have been to. I really just do not want to provide any more information to them when they won't even answer my simple question of which journey(s) it is in regards to. They have not issued a specific fine either, so all helplines such as Citizens Advice and the National Debtline are saying they have no way to help or support me, even though that is who Northern Rail are referring me to for help and advice. I have even contacted my local MP with this issue but nobody seems to be able to advise me on this. Everybody else who has dealt with similar issues with Northern have been issued a fine and/or been told which journey's their case is in regards to. If I do not respond, they are threatening me with a possibility of court action or evidence interview, in accordance with the 'Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984'.
I obviously cannot remember every single journey I have taken dating back 5 years but I am confident I have never intentionally short fared a journey, I feel aggrieved by the process in which Northern Rails fraud department is contacting me and harassing me, I already deal with bad mental health and this whole situation has made me feel quite awful. Is this really the process they deem fair when trying to accuse someone of such things?

I have attached the initial letter they sent me through email, my email is blanked out.
Any advice would be appreciated, as I currently feel at a complete loss.
Thank you.

 

[Watershed]

Have you had your details taken by them, or any other train operator? Or perhaps received a Penalty Fare recently? These are the two most common reasons for train operators to start an investigation such as this.

You are under no obligation to attend a voluntary interview such as this, and in most cases it is not in your interests to do so. The purpose of an interview is to obtain evidence which they can use against you, not to give you an opportunity to 'clear your name' etc. as some people may believe.

If you have genuinely done nothing wrong and have held a valid Railcard at the time of using any Railcard-discounted tickets you have bought, you have nothing to worry about ultimately.

It would be useful to see the full correspondence you have had from them, and ideally a copy of the journeys they have provided. Perhaps we will be able to see why they have suspicions of short faring.

 

[lloiss0]

Have you had your details taken by them, or any other train operator? Or perhaps received a Penalty Fare recently? These are the two most common reasons for train operators to start an investigation such as this.

You are under no obligation to attend a voluntary interview such as this, and in most cases it is not in your interests to do so. The purpose of an interview is to obtain evidence which they can use against you, not to give you an opportunity to 'clear your name' etc. as some people may believe.

If you have genuinely done nothing wrong and have held a valid Railcard at the time of using any Railcard-discounted tickets you have bought, you have nothing to worry about ultimately.

It would be useful to see the full correspondence you have had from them, and ideally a copy of the journeys they have provided. Perhaps we will be able to see why they have suspicions of short faring.

I received a fine on the train years ago, but honestly cannot remember if I gave them my details as I paid the fine on the spot.

I understand the interview would not be in my best interest, and really I don't want to do one anyway as much as they are pressuring me to.

I have always held a valid railcard and sent them evidence of this, so they have dropped the railcard allegations and now are just accusing me of short faring.

I will get the full correspondence together and reply with it, however it would be hard for me to share the copy of the journeys they have provided as it is a massive spreadsheet containing all information about my journeys over the past 5 years!

Have you had your details taken by them, or any other train operator? Or perhaps received a Penalty Fare recently? These are the two most common reasons for train operators to start an investigation such as this.

You are under no obligation to attend a voluntary interview such as this, and in most cases it is not in your interests to do so. The purpose of an interview is to obtain evidence which they can use against you, not to give you an opportunity to 'clear your name' etc. as some people may believe.

If you have genuinely done nothing wrong and have held a valid Railcard at the time of using any Railcard-discounted tickets you have bought, you have nothing to worry about ultimately.

It would be useful to see the full correspondence you have had from them, and ideally a copy of the journeys they have provided. Perhaps we will be able to see why they have suspicions of short faring.

Here I have attached full correspondence except for the evidence for my railcards as they are no longer pursuing that. I have also attached a few screenshots of the spreadsheet of journeys, but like I said its 267 journeys in total so the actual spreadsheet is just massive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

I received a fine on the train years ago, but honestly cannot remember if I gave them my details as I paid the fine on the spot.

I understand the interview would not be in my best interest, and really I don't want to do one anyway as much as they are pressuring me to.

I have always held a valid railcard and sent them evidence of this, so they have dropped the railcard allegations and now are just accusing me of short faring.

I will get the full correspondence together and reply with it, however it would be hard for me to share the copy of the journeys they have provided as it is a massive spreadsheet containing all information about my journeys over the past 5 years!

Here I have attached full correspondence except for the evidence for my railcards as they are no longer pursuing that. I have also attached a few screenshots of the spreadsheet of journeys, but like I said its 267 journeys in total so the actual spreadsheet is just massive.

I received a fine on the train years ago, but honestly cannot remember if I gave them my details as I paid the fine on the spot.

I understand the interview would not be in my best interest, and really I don't want to do one anyway as much as they are pressuring me to.

I have always held a valid railcard and sent them evidence of this, so they have dropped the railcard allegations and now are just accusing me of short faring.

I will get the full correspondence together and reply with it, however it would be hard for me to share the copy of the journeys they have provided as it is a massive spreadsheet containing all information about my journeys over the past 5 years!

Here I have attached full correspondence except for the evidence for my railcards as they are no longer pursuing that. I have also attached a few screenshots of the spreadsheet of journeys, but like I said its 267 journeys in total so the actual spreadsheet is just massive.

Sorry, these are from the spreadsheet. Didn’t attach to my other reply for some reason.

 

[dodecahedron67]

In the initial letter in Post #1 it has a reference at the top that would appear to be a Travel Irregularity Report from Northern themselves. Are you absolutely sure you’ve not had one of these issued against you recently?

If you haven’t been physically stopped since the (presumably) Penalty Fare you mentioned, I would be minded to respond again simply confirming that these were your normal travel patterns, you held a valid railcard for the full duration, and ignore anything more from them. If you haven’t been physically stopped and spoken to, then they can’t really do anything if you just start ignoring them.


My guess is they’re looking at the high amount of Atherton - Salford tickets and the Mauldeth Road - Manchester ones too. I suspect they think you’re travelling from further out than Atherton etc. and only buying a ticket to get you through the barriers at Salford/Piccadilly. Needless to say if this is something you are doing, this needs to stop now.

There is one that raises a red flag massively to me, and that’s a ticket from Deansgate to Manchester. I would wager legitimate sales of that ticket are so low that anyone who buys one probably gets flagged

 

[saismee]

None of these journeys themselves look suspicious to me. Are people not allowed to take the train only one stop anymore? News to me.

In the initial letter in Post #1 it has a reference at the top that would appear to be a Travel Irregularity Report from Northern themselves. Are you absolutely sure you’ve not had one of these issued against you recently?

Op, could someone else have potentially given your name and/or address to a revenue inspector? It may be worth asking if they are discussing a case where "you" were stopped, or, more likely, they just use a TIR-like reference number for digital investigations too.

 

[lloiss0]

In the initial letter in Post #1 it has a reference at the top that would appear to be a Travel Irregularity Report from Northern themselves. Are you absolutely sure you’ve not had one of these issued against you recently?

If you haven’t been physically stopped since the (presumably) Penalty Fare you mentioned, I would be minded to respond again simply confirming that these were your normal travel patterns, you held a valid railcard for the full duration, and ignore anything more from them. If you haven’t been physically stopped and spoken to, then they can’t really do anything if you just start ignoring them.

FWIW I think this looks like a pretty poor fishing expedition by Northern - judging by the screenshots of journeys you posed it looks like someone who commutes from Atherton to Uni of Salford and occasionally visits friends/family in Huddersfield

I'm quite confident I haven't had anything like this issued against me recently. If I have it has not been made known to me!

In the initial letter, I have blurred my email for privacy but they actually refer to me as Miss. [my email], and didn't even know my name until I responded! I think they have got my information through trainline?

That's pretty much it ! I'm way too scared of getting fined on the trains to ever short fare my journeys LOL

 

[dodecahedron67]

None of these journeys themselves look suspicious to me. Are people not allowed to take the train only one stop anymore? News to me.

If you were a money conscious student, would you pay £5 to take the train one stop or would you pay £2 to take the bus which runs more frequently and only takes 5 min longer…

Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly especially, having done a similar journey many times, you’d walk to the Oxford Road corridor for buses that run every 20 seconds, not a train that runs every half hour.

A one-stop ticket will always raise more flags in a metropolitan area where there are viable alternative transport methods that may seem to be cheaper/more efficient/more frequent

 

[lloiss0]

None of these journeys themselves look suspicious to me. Are people not allowed to take the train only one stop anymore? News to me.



Op, could someone else have potentially given your name and/or address to a revenue inspector? It may be worth asking if they are discussing a case where "you" were stopped, or, more likely, they just use a TIR-like reference number for digital investigations too.

I don't think so as they didn't even know my name until I replied to their email and signed off with my name. Before that they referred to me as Miss. [my email]. They definitely don't have my address either as this is all through email, and I doubt someone has given my email out with my weird welsh middle name hahaha. I'm unsure what a TIR-like reference number is, sorry! This is all very new to me

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

If you were a money conscious student, would you pay £5 to take the train one stop or would you pay £2 to take the bus which runs more frequently and only takes 5 min longer…

Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly especially, having done a similar journey many times, you’d walk to the Oxford Road corridor for buses that run every 20 seconds, not a train that runs every half hour.

A one-stop ticket will always raise more flags in a metropolitan area where there are viable alternative transport methods that may seem to be cheaper/more efficient/more frequent

I mean I lived closer to the trains and generally just prefer taking trains. Think it's a bit ridiculous for that to flag up any red flags. Especially when the train was faster for me.

I understand what you are saying though, and appreciate the perspective.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is your address in Huddersfield, a your location suggests? How long has that been your address?

 

[lloiss0]

Is your address in Huddersfield, a your location suggests? How long has that been your address?

I moved back to my parents house in Huddersfield a month ago, before that I lived in Manchester since 2020.

 

[AlterEgo]

I moved back to my parents house in Huddersfield a month ago, before that I lived in Manchester since 2020.

If the addresses tie up (eg you lived in Stockport/Mauldeth Road area etc) i cannot imagine why they think any of this is suspicious. Go and tell them to do one. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing at all. If any TOC sent this to me they'd get a response in the vein of Arkell v Pressdram.

 

[lloiss0]

If the addresses tie up (eg you lived in Stockport/Mauldeth Road area etc) i cannot imagine why they think any of this is suspicious. Go and tell them to do one. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing at all. If any TOC sent this to me they'd get a response in the vein of Arkell v Pressdram.

Yeah, I literally lived ON Mauldeth Road for a year! Hence the many trains to uni/work from there. I just don't really want to provide them with more info to do with my addresses as they wont provide me with anything! I honestly feel like responding in a similar way, just don't want to antagonise them hahah

 

[6Gman]

It does seem rather ridiculous for them to assume that Mauldeth Road-Piccadilly tickets are automatically evidence of short-faring.

If I were the OP I would simply make the point that I lived close to the station and used it to access the city centre.

Frankly, it's none of Northern's business why someone chooses to use their service.

 

[saismee]

If you were a money conscious student, would you pay £5 to take the train one stop or would you pay £2 to take the bus which runs more frequently and only takes 5 min longer…

It's funny you ask me that because I used to do exactly that. I used my 16-25 railcard to travel to and from college despite there being a faster and cheaper bus. This is because I had anxiety at the time and taking the train allowed me to meet my friend. I also just don't enjoy bus journeys. It cost me more money but it was money well-spent.

 

[HOMELESS]

Search out Council Tax bills and Utility bills for the Mauldeth Road address and send them on to the company to see if that helps.
Not that you should have to prove yourself!!

 

[Watershed]

It is up to you how you wish to proceed. Having seen an extract from the journey spreadsheet I can sort of see where their suspicions have arisen from, since Mauldeth Road is one of the closest stations to Manchester and is undoubtedly used as an origin from which people buy tickets just to get through the barriers in Manchester. Similarly with Deansgate and Salford Crescent.

That being said, buying tickets for short journeys and making short journeys is obviously not an offence. They would need to prove that you actually travelled without a ticket (or beyond the validity of the ticket you held) for you to have committed an offence.

This does feel rather like a fishing expedition and since you have said they did not obtain your details from being stopped (or at least, not from anything recent) I would suggest you are safe to ignore any further correspondence from them unless and until you receive something like a Letter Before Claim or Court paperwork.

You could, if you are feeling generous, let them know that you're not going to entertain their fishing expedition. We can give you feedback on the wording of such an email if you'd like to put a draft here.

 

[wilsontown]

To me, this is just bizarre. I know we see loads of issues here with e.g. Vauxhall to Waterloo tickets. But Mauldeth Road to Manchester seems like a totally reasonable journey to take. Are they really suggesting that only fare evaders would do that rather than take a slower and less comfortable mode?

 

[MrJeeves]

If any TOC sent this to me they'd get a response in the vein of Arkell v Pressdram.

At the very least I'd be telling them I'm not doing their investigations for them by filling in their multiple-hundred-row-spreadsheet in a slightly friendly tone... Or what you said...

@lloiss0 if you haven't been stopped by staff on a journey, I would just stop replying. You've told them your purchase history is legitimate, and that is the end of the matter. You have no obligation to spend hours completing their spreadsheet or to reply to their emails at all.

 

[saismee]

At the very least I'd be telling them I'm not doing their investigations for them by filling in their multiple-hundred-row-spreadsheet in a slightly friendly tone... Or what you said...

I prefer @AlterEgo's idea.

 

[Egg Centric]

I prefer @AlterEgo's idea.

Me too but I'd quite enjoy a court fight, telling them where to go in the hope of provoking one while cathartic is not to be recommended for the majority of people. Ignoring them is.

OP should either entirely ignore or consider making a complaint to customer services, then when customer services almost certainly tell them they won't deal with it getting a deadlock letter and taking to ombudsman imo.

 

[blimmo]

I concur with the advice to stop responding. I would also consider switching ticket retailer to someone that is less willing to just give your entire history to northern when they don't even have any evidence of you doing anything wrong.

 

[Swedenorer]

Unusual for me but I'd simply say 'see you in court' - but I'm retired and it would please me to see a lawyer trying to prove anything. I might also suggest that if the don't want passengers from Mauldreth Road to M/cr they should either close the station or stop calling there.

It's a try on ignore it.

 

[thejuggler]

A shocking fishing expedition. I wouldn't have got into discussion using messaging. My only response would be to the intial letter.

Thanks for your letter. Please begin court proceedings so this matter can be dealt with correctly.

 

[KNN]

Being sensible about this, you've been caught in the crossfire of them trying to take a hard line on fraudulent travel.

Just explain to them your circumstances like you have here, you lived in place X and travelled to Y for Z. With proofs of address etc to make it clear.

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, it is probably because your stations are commonly used for short faring when the actual footfall is quite low. Fraud detection methods are always going throw up false positives.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is an excellent example of why- unless you have been stopped- you should not engage in correspondence with TOCs who send these letters and emails.

As the various screenshots show, once you enter into dialogue then there is always one more question. The purpose of that is to try and get you to self-incriminate, inadvertently or otherwise. Once you’ve done that, or you’ve trapped yourself in a lie, it is hard to get out of it.

It feels like we need a sticky at the top of this forum: You have a right to silence. It is nearly always in your best interests to exercise it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2026 ==

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, it is probably because your stations are commonly used for short faring when the actual footfall is quite low. Fraud detection methods are always going throw up false positives.

It’s worth noting that they can do more in depth data analytics than just [tickets between common short faring station pair]. They can look at purchase times and scanning times, and if someone responds to acknowledge they used the tickets they can then ask questions if the purchase and scan times don’t align with the times trains call at that station.

Just another reason why you don’t reply to these emails unless you have been stopped.

 

[KNN]

This is an excellent example of why- unless you have been stopped- you should not engage in correspondence with TOCs who send these letters and emails.

As the various screenshots show, once you enter into dialogue then there is always one more question. The purpose of that is to try and get you to self-incriminate, inadvertently or otherwise. Once you’ve done that, or you’ve trapped yourself in a lie, it is hard to get out of it.

It feels like we need a sticky at the top of this forum: You have a right to silence. It is nearly always in your best interests to exercise it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2026 ==


It’s worth noting that they can do more in depth data analytics than just [tickets between common short faring station pair]. They can look at purchase times and scanning times, and if someone responds to acknowledge they used the tickets they can then ask questions if the purchase and scan times don’t align with the times trains call at that station.

Just another reason why you don’t reply to these emails unless you have been stopped.

Why make it more difficult for yourself and everyone else? If you don't reply you'll still be in their fraud process and likely to be investigated, potentially wasting more of both your and their time.

If it was me I'd reply explaining the circumstances so it will go away.

 

[blimmo]

Why make it more difficult for yourself and everyone else? If you don't reply you'll still be in their fraud process and likely to be investigated, potentially wasting more of both your and their time.

If it was me I'd reply explaining the circumstances so it will go away.

OP has replied and explained the circumstances and they haven't gone away, just asked them to fill out a spreadsheet with every one of their journeys going back years.

 

[KNN]

OP has replied and explained the circumstances and they haven't gone away, just asked them to fill out a spreadsheet with every one of their journeys going back years.

It's still not going to go away by ignoring it, provide proof of address and ask for it to escalated if need be.

Not replying is evidence for the prosecution as far as they are concerned, and they are so used to people lying to them.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Not replying is evidence for the prosecution as far as they are concerned, and they are so used to people lying to them.

I thought the general consensus was that unless someone had been stopped and interviewed with an invalid ticket, that a history of ticket purchases does not of itself constitute evidence to mount a prosecution.

There would be two reasons for this. There's no actual proof that the ticket buyer travelled for longer journeys than the tickets allowed and no actual evidence that the buyer and the traveller were the same person.

 

[Egg Centric]

It's still not going to go away by ignoring it, provide proof of address and ask for it to escalated if need be.

Not replying is evidence for the prosecution as far as they are concerned, and they are so used to people lying to them.

If it escalates to an SJPN (with the zero evidence so far) then that's the time to try making it go away, for now why bother? Just ignore their emails.