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Forth Bridge sections

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Markinch

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Recently, I spoke with a chap from TrainspotScotland about the new Forth crossing - and examined the glossies they produced. It seems that one Stewart Stevenson (Minister of Trainspot) - and the folk behind the new crossing proposal in TS - have been told by Knotwork Rail that "capacity can be increased over the Forth Bridge".

At present, the entire Forth Bridge - over 2 Km of it - is one signalling section. The usual section length between Haymarket and Kirkcaldy is about 1 Km. At present, therefore, no northbound service can leave Dalmeny until the previous train has cleared North Queensferry Station - and vice versa for southbound services. This effectively reduces the maximum frequency of trains to one every 4 to 5 minutes each way over the brig.

However, just sticking an extra red signal in the middle of the brig will not solve the problem. While it will increase frequency over the brig to a maximum of one each way every 3 minutes, it does not address the other common causes of delay on this route. Apart from the somewhat crowded approaches to Waverley (not helped by the single-lead Castle Junction), delays are commonly experienced on limited-stop services (a) northbound, on the approach to Inverkeithing and (b) southbound, around South Gyle. I personally have experienced (b) several times - even when the preceding all-station train was clear of Dalmeny before we got to the Forth Bridge.

So, unless the service is rejigged, e.g. so that all-station trains north of Inverkeithing run non-stop to Haymarket, while limited-stop services call all stations Inverkeithing to Haymarket (a very user-unfriendly solution: many Fifers work in Dalmeny and South Gyle, while there is not exactly an overwhelming demand for folk from (e.g.) Aviemore to go to North Queensferry), splitting the Forth Bridge into two sections will do nothing to increase capacity. Indeed, all it will do is to close the route to heavy trains, as the Forth Bridge is weight-restricted.

The only way capacity could be increased is if the splitting is done together with the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. This would enable limited-stop services to get past all-station services by diverting the latter through the Airport. However, my understanding is that EARL is currently under threat. And, of course, the down side is that the Forth Bridge would then be closed to coal trains: they would have little option but to use the yet-to-be-built line between Longannet and Stirling (is that still going ahead?).

Anyway, the Scottish Executive and TrainspotScotland are currently using the false "increased capacity" argument to justify not putting light rail in the new Forth crossing. I would ask that all those with an interest in the new Forth crossing proposals make their views kent to TrainspotScotland (and any MSPs you happen to know) forthwith. Details can be found at www.forthreplacementcrossing.info and probably also going via http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk. The current "consultation" finishes on Friday 7th September.
 
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richa2002

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Argh, when did we ever start using kilometres for describing the roads and railways. Look at the railways and see what system is used...
 

rail-britain

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Kilometres has to be used in transport proposals and submissions, it has been a requirement for about 20 years now

As for the increase in capacity, the proposal is referring to two bridges and the associated work
Refer to the map
 

me123

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km is easier to use than miles, as metric is better than imperial for so many things, but I must confess to using miles more because of the road signage.

I really would like to see another Forth Crossing, but I think maybe a tunnel would be the way to go? The Forth Bridge itself is impressive indeed, but I think the two crossings look too iconic to change with a new bridge. However, the drawbacks are significant with a tunnel and the risk is crucial.

A bridge is the ideal solution really. Whilst you potentially lose aesthetic appeal, the risks of the tunnel outweigh the loss of the scenary in my humble opinion.
 

richa2002

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Newcastle
Manchester
Sheffield
Croydon
Birmingham
DLR
CTRL

definitely km...
Yes, they're little light-rail systems apart from the CTRL which is an exception due it to it complying with the French.

The 'big-boys' railway still uses proper measurements.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
LUL is km too.
Only when measuring distances? Speed limits are still mph aren't they?
 

rail-britain

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I've had a read through of the Transport Scotland (correct name) documents
There is no reference to Network Rail (correct name) with regards to changes in capacity
However, there are some pretty basic Forth Rail Bridge details :

Maximum train length is 142 metres
Capacity is 9 paths per hour
Peak demand is 10 paths per hour, between 08:00 and 09:00 (so it's no wonder these trains are "normally" late!)
However, it is possible to have 12 paths per hour
Restriction on 7Gxx headcode freight, must not pass each other on the bridge, which may cause reactionary delays (as above)

However, with the opening of the Stirling - Alloa rail route, some of this freight will be removed

Network Rail will be carrying signalling improvements, to be completed by 2010/2011, which will decrease the headway from 5 minutes to 3 minutes
The capacity remainsthe same, but it allows the rail operators (FS, VT, GNER, EWS, etc) to consider flighting and allocation of timing slots
 

rail-britain

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For new projects the speed limit has to be defined in both kmh and mph
Since the Forth Road Bridge and Forth Rail Bridge are existing structures, with existing speed limits, publications may continue to use the (posted) mph speed limits

Speed limits on the Forth Rail Bridge are 20 45 50
 

VTDan

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Ascot certainly has the speed limits correct there.
That bridge goes on forever and ever....Takes the ****
 

djw1981

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M8. There is some dispute as to whether the Coal trains to Longannet will work via Stirling because TS/NR (can't rememebr which) wanted to charge a premium for use of teh new track.
 

rail-britain

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They ent

On the Down its: 20/20/50 then North Queensferry
On the Up its: 20/50/20 then Dalmeny

But there both bi-directional.

Coal trains are restricted to 45
Hence the speed limits are 20 45 50
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
M8. There is some dispute as to whether the Coal trains to Longannet will work via Stirling because TS/NR (can't rememebr which) wanted to charge a premium for use of teh new track.
I was under the impression this had been resolved quite recently, and Network Rail were to include some minor changes to the track layout as a result
 

Ascot

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Coal trains are restricted to 45
Hence the speed limits are 20 45 50

Nothing in Table As
Nothing in Route Clearence
Nothing in Local Instructions
Nothing in Exceptionally Poor Rail Adhesion
Nothing in Special Working Arrangements

How olds your papers?
 

rail-britain

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Details are in the Forth Rail Bridge proposal
Source :
Transport Scotland with information provided from Network Rail!
 

rail-britain

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Source :
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/defaultpage1221cde0.aspx?pageID=268&rlID=787&pubID=58&ChptId=680
Publication Date: 14/02/2007
Publication Summary: Assessment of existing and forecasted future conditions of the transport network within the corridors of Forth Road and Rail Bridges. Published 14 February 2007

Quote :
the main restriction on the Forth Bridge is that freight trains headcode 7Gxx (loaded coal class 7 freight train, maximum speed 45mph) must not be timed to pass another freight train on the opposite line on the Forth Bridge. This is from the Rule of the Plan(ROP)8. The restriction could also reduce capacity by the addition of pathing time to freight services which could delay other trains. In practice the timetable planner should ensure that freight trains are programmed to pass away from the bridge so that capacity is not compromised
 

Ascot

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Ohh all class 7 trains are 45mph, like sayin Dunbar through is 45mph cos a class 7

I'd rather go by the sectional appendix that go by a government website unless you some what think you are the almighty God of all bull.

EDIT: 1,000th POST
 

Markinch

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It is somewhat off-****ing to see that the majority of posts in this thread concern some argument between metric and imperial units.

As regards "flighting", this is already done with Fife Circle-type services. This means that South Gyle, Dalmeny and North Queensferry, instead of getting a roughly quarter-hourly service, tend to get 2 trains in 5 minutes and then nothing for 25 minutes. In addition, services from Inverness/Perth are often "flighted" with ECML or Aberdeen express services, so Kirkcaldy might get 2 fast trains to Edinburgh in 5 minutes and then nothing (but slow trains) for 55.

In other words, "flighting" is already used to try and cope with the present congestion problems. My argument about no effective increase in capacity stands.
 

me123

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Markinch, I'm amazed that they do that! (Of course, part of me is not surprised, but still) it just seems so wrong for the passengers, but when was the last time that passengers were important?

PS The metric system is much more logical than the strange imperial system.
 

djw1981

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The issue is that without flighting, the fast services get held up behind teh styoppers and are not therefore 'fast'.
 

Ascot

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The reason they use Miles and Chains is due to Historical reasons, they need to keep the records and by the time they convert all the documents into metric it would cost alot.

Besides easy to know 22 yards in a chain, 80 chains in a mile, 8 furlongs in a mile, 5 furlongs is a kilometre. ;)
 
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