Former Eurostar route from Waterloo International

[snbower]

Hi there, I'm trying to establish the original Eurostar route from 1994. Which stations did it pass through? And when was the link to the first part of HS1 built?

 

[First class]

I'm interested to know what is actually happening to the ES platforms at Waterloo...

 

[dave12435]

South West Trains are taking them on though my memory fails me as to what routes they are going to use them for
not sure when they are going to take them over either

 

[Electrostar]

I was under the impression that SWT were taking over the platform nearest the main station (platform 19?) with a lot of construction work to open access, but there still hasn't been a decision on the other platforms. A tragedy, really. As soon as the powers-that-be stated planning HS1, they should have laid plans for Waterloo International. As usual, taxpayers and the travellling public have been short-changed.

 

[stut]

Certainly the signage and access for one of the ex-Eurostar platforms (21, I think) is there, with access up some stairs or a ramp from halfway down platform 20. I've yet to see it used, though.

I've heard rumours the walls are to be adorned with images of white elephants...

 

[Mojo]

Waterloo International was used for a hedge fund party last night:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...to-keep-giving-despite-a-year-of-turmoil.html

A few pics of platform 20 with new Network Rail signage (as mentioned by 'stut') and a few other bits from WIT here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/14880766@N02/3091133112/in/set-72157604939371430/

 

[WillPS]

Why did Eurostar move... so soon after such a huge investment was made in to Waterloo, with nothing to replace Eurostar at Waterloo and plenty of demand for Kings Cross/St. Pancras platform space?

 

[43106]

To respond to the original posting, when I was footling around London from 2001-4, I saw the Eurostar on a few occasions within the scope of a 1-Day Travel Card. From my observations, it went from Waterloo then took the specially built bridge/link and picked up the line from Victoria, passing through (or just past) Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street, through Brixton, Herne Hill then through Kent House to Bromley South. From there, it went through Orpington and Sevenoaks to Tonbridge, then via Paddock Wood and Ashford and connected to the Channel Tunnel somehere around Westhanger or Sandling.
The main part of the CTRL in Kent was opened well before St. Pancras, and the Eurostar was switched at Bromley South and went via Swanley and a temporary link to HS1 was built on the trackbed of an old line just west of Longfield. This old line originally went through stations called LONGFIELD HALT and ROSHERVILLE HALT then carried on and terminated at Gravesend (not the present station) Between Longfield and Rosherville, a new line was built to connect to HS1. This was put out of use when St. Pancras was opened, but it will probably remain for emergency purposes.

 

[snbower]

'43106', that's perfect, thank you for your informative and kind reply

 

[djw1981]

Why did Eurostar move... so soon after such a huge investment was made in to Waterloo, with nothing to replace Eurostar at Waterloo and plenty of demand for Kings Cross/St. Pancras platform space?

Eurostar was only temporarily at waterloo - the journey time to there was slow, wentr along lower sopeed suburban lines which were not segregated, and the third rail limited the power drawn and thus the speed of the train.

Capacity at Waterloo is IIRC far more of an issue than at KX/StP. The redirecting of Kent services I cans ee less argument for - those platforms really could have been better used.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Besides, There are far more people North of the Thames....
I think St Pancras was a good choice, as StP has direct links to the midlands, Kings Cross next door has direct links to the East, via Peterborough and Cambridge, Yorkshire with Leeds and York, the north east at Newcastle and Sunderland, as well as Scotland, direct trains to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness and Aberdeen. Also just down the road is Euston, with the trains to the W midlands and Scotland. A little further west and you have Marylebone and Paddington.

 

[jopsuk]

You can get to Kings Cross St Pancras from every other London Terminal using a single underground or Thameslink journey EXCEPT for, ironically, Waterloo- most are on the Circle (or have an out-of station interchange with it- Euston, Fenchurch Street, Marylebone) or Thameslink (and some have more direct routes).

 

[paul1609]

Besides, There are far more people North of the Thames....
I think St Pancras was a good choice, as StP has direct links to the midlands, Kings Cross next door has direct links to the East, via Peterborough and Cambridge, Yorkshire with Leeds and York, the north east at Newcastle and Sunderland, as well as Scotland, direct trains to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness and Aberdeen. Also just down the road is Euston, with the trains to the W midlands and Scotland. A little further west and you have Marylebone and Paddington.

It would be interesting to see where the through tickets are being sold from. i have a gut feeling that for anywhere more than 4 hours from Paris the effect of the London terminal is insignificant. i would suggest that travellers from those locations are far more likely to use a budget airline. Realistically the route of HS1 was likely to be far the cheapest into central london and St Pancras was the only terminal with a huge amount of spare capacity.

 

[metrocammel]

It would be interesting to see where the through tickets are being sold from. i have a gut feeling that for anywhere more than 4 hours from Paris the effect of the London terminal is insignificant. i would suggest that travellers from those locations are far more likely to use a budget airline. Realistically the route of HS1 was likely to be far the cheapest into central london and St Pancras was the only terminal with a huge amount of spare capacity.

When going to Paris from the North West, unless you hated planes, it would be crazy pay a premium to have a far longer journey, that still required a change in the journey (which for my example, would require lugging suitcases from Euston to St. Pancras). If the direct service from Regional UK cities to Europe had come off, and discount fares available, I think Eurostar would have been a viable option over flying from the North of England to the continent. Sadly, due to numerous stumbling blocks, it never came about.
In conclusion, unless you had an all-inclusive ticket, you were travelling quite light, and you weren't in a rush to get to your destination, you may travel down on a InterCity service, and then catch Eurostar. However, if somebody is just going to Paris for a short break, cheap air-fares would win hands down.

 

[yorkie]

Which stations did it pass through?

If you take a look at the London Connections map, you will see that there are 2 routes to Shortlands. Fast trains are usually booked via Sydenham Hill, but Catford is an option, and Eurostars could take either route, depending on the position of other trains at the time (far better to go via Catford if a stopper is just head of you on the Sydenham route!), from Shortlands there's only one route to Ashford and then the tunnel (See London & South East map).

Shortlands Junction was remodelled when the first part of the high speed line was completed, in order to avoid conflicting moves as after that date Eurostars went via Swanley, and to get from the Sydenham line to the Swanley line meant crossing over on the flat until the flyover. Obviously the flyover is useful today but if it wasn't for Eurostar it wouldn't have got built.

The maps are available here http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/maps/

 

[jrhilton]

I was under the impression that SWT were taking over the platform nearest the main station (platform 19?) with a lot of construction work to open access, but there still hasn't been a decision on the other platforms. A tragedy, really. As soon as the powers-that-be stated planning HS1, they should have laid plans for Waterloo International. As usual, taxpayers and the travellling public have been short-changed.

I'm interested to know too, I read ages ago they were going to take over the platforms, but it also said that Waterloo's capcity was not restricted by number of platforms, so SWT didn't actully "need" them all.

The last I heard was they were probably going to have the platforms (for services to/from richmond etc I would guess so there isn't too much crossover of services), with a large shopping center built underneath. Anyone have any more info?

 

[Railway Andrew]

I took the Reading - Waterloo South West service last Monday 08.06, and the Juniper ended up on P19, the last platform at the west side next to the former Eurostar terminal.
All I could see running in and out again to Southampton, was that the rail on the ' new' flyover were brown rust i.e. not used since George Stephenson was a lad!

Many thanks to the group for your kind message on my making 65 years after a railway career.

Regards, Andrew

 

[jwos]

Prior to the first part of the high speed line opening, Eurostars could go 6 different ways to the tunnel:

The most commonly used route was Waterloo - Bromley South - Orpington - Sevenoaks - Tonbridge - Ashford - Cheriton. Trains would however occasionally be diverted and run Waterloo - Bromley South - Swanley - Maidstone East - Ashford - Cheriton, and even more occasionally, but still used from time to time was Waterloo - Bromley South - Swanley - Bat and Ball - Sevenoaks - Tonbrisge - Ashford - Cheriton.

There were 2 variations of each of these routes, according to whether the trains went from Waterloo - Bromley South via Herne Hill or via Catford.

All of these routes were extensively upgraded prior to the introduction of international services in 1994. Power supplies were upgraded, continously welded rail installed, and in many locations line speeds were upped to 90 or 100mph, this being as much as the infrastructure would allow. The loops at Bickley Junction were multiplied to quadrupled track too at that time.

Power demands were high due to the extremely tight pathing constraints in the suburbs often required eurostars to run 2 trains in the same direction in a section, with Bruxelles services usually running 3 mins behind the Paris ones.

Also, class 92s used on cross channel freight used a hell of a lot of current, so much so that they are still barred from going via Herne Hill.

At the same time, Redhill - Tonbridge was electrified and upgraded, and most international freight in the daytime still goes that way.

The original plan was to subsequently construct a high speed link though Kent and South East London, with extensive tunnelling emerging in the Peckham area, then running over 'classic lines' into Waterloo. This route however ran through the back gardens of a lot voters in a lot of marginal tory seats and soon lost out to an alternative through marshland in the Thames estuary.

While we in Britain all argued and took 13 years to build ours, the French had their high speed line to the tunnel ready for Eurostar's introduction in 1994, and the Belgians finished theirs a couple of years later. Some would say we missed the boat somewhat there, or maybe the train that replaced it...

 

[yorksrob]

Prior to the first part of the high speed line opening, Eurostars could go 6 different ways to the tunnel:

The most commonly used route was Waterloo - Bromley South - Orpington - Sevenoaks - Tonbridge - Ashford - Cheriton. Trains would however occasionally be diverted and run Waterloo - Bromley South - Swanley - Maidstone East - Ashford - Cheriton, and even more occasionally, but still used from time to time was Waterloo - Bromley South - Swanley - Bat and Ball - Sevenoaks - Tonbrisge - Ashford - Cheriton.

There were 2 variations of each of these routes, according to whether the trains went from Waterloo - Bromley South via Herne Hill or via Catford.

All of these routes were extensively upgraded prior to the introduction of international services in 1994. Power supplies were upgraded, continously welded rail installed, and in many locations line speeds were upped to 90 or 100mph, this being as much as the infrastructure would allow. The loops at Bickley Junction were multiplied to quadrupled track too at that time.

Power demands were high due to the extremely tight pathing constraints in the suburbs often required eurostars to run 2 trains in the same direction in a section, with Bruxelles services usually running 3 mins behind the Paris ones.

Also, class 92s used on cross channel freight used a hell of a lot of current, so much so that they are still barred from going via Herne Hill.

At the same time, Redhill - Tonbridge was electrified and upgraded, and most international freight in the daytime still goes that way.

The original plan was to subsequently construct a high speed link though Kent and South East London, with extensive tunnelling emerging in the Peckham area, then running over 'classic lines' into Waterloo. This route however ran through the back gardens of a lot voters in a lot of marginal tory seats and soon lost out to an alternative through marshland in the Thames estuary.

While we in Britain all argued and took 13 years to build ours, the French had their high speed line to the tunnel ready for Eurostar's introduction in 1994, and the Belgians finished theirs a couple of years later. Some would say we missed the boat somewhat there, or maybe the train that replaced it...

I'm not sure whether it panned out that way, but from the info around when the lines were being upgraded, I seem to remember that the plan was to send approximately one Eurostar via Maidstone East for every two that went via Tonbridge. There were certainly loops built along the Maidstone East line in anticipation of holding freight trains etc.