Forgotten railcards - the French solution

[cuccir]

As the situation you are applying this to is where they do not produce said railcard you are relying on the person to then provide another form of verifiable ID (Passport, Driving licence) not just a credit card in the name of someone else who has a railcard or the typical scumbag response of "I have no ID".

Plenty of TOCs don't and there are a lot of journeys for which the only walk-up fares available are full fare. Take Virgin, a regular traveller buys a railcard discounted off-peak and uses a peak train. Does his best to avoid on-board checks and gets away with it some of the time, other times ends up having to pay the difference to an anytime fare that should have been paid anyway.

Really I don't see the point in adding a complex, expensive system with gaping loopholes for criminals just to accomodate those few "genuine cases" who are too stupid to remember to carry a credit-card size piece of plastic in their wallet which they are aware (by purchasing railcard-discounted fares) is saving them a lot of money.

.

I think you're over complicating things/misunderstanding. At the moment, a passenger who claims to have forgotten their railcard has four usual outcomes, depending on their train and journey: 1. Pay the full fare 2. Receive an unpaid fare notice 3. Pay a penalty fare 4. Guard uses discretion and does not charge. These 4 apply whether the passenger has lost, forgotten, or never had, a railcard. My reading of this system is that these 4 options get replaced with a 'upgrade to full fare plus an admin fee'. If you can provide ID at the time - which could take any number of forms, it really depends on the TOCs as to what they chose to accept - you can use this ID, and a valid railcard, to later reclaim the extra money that you paid at a station. In a penalty fares zone, you would have to pay the penalty fare - but again, could reclaim this.

If you have no ID on you, tough luck (because the whole ID system is essentially giving you a second chance having failed to fulfil the original agreement); if you have no railcard, then the system doesn't particularly change for you, as you still pay more due to the admin fee.

Indeed, there's no reason why this couldn't be implemented whilst still asking passengers to pay the full fare on board (ie buying a new ticket, rather than upgrading), if this made sure that evaders didn't benefit. ID+ the new ticket+railcard would still get you your money back at the station. The advantage is that this system removes some of the pressure on the guard to enact option 4 from my list above - they can charge the extra and then say 'yes sure, I'm sure you do really have a railcard, if you go with your ID and railcard to a station, you can get the money back'. I agree this doesn't solve every single case - a passenger may completely lose their wallet, for example - but it will help some genuine errors whilst potentially making things easier for guards.

Or, you know, TOCs can continue to treat people who make mistakes like criminals. Fine, they've forgotten or misplaced something that they should have and yes there can be consequences for this. But when you could bring in such an easy system that would lead to a pleasant resolution for all sides, I don't see the problem here.

 

[Greenback]

Does Uk legisaltion allow for an admin fee to be charged on train? I thought one of the reasons we haven't had a situation like in othe rcountries where surcharges apply when tickets are not bought at an open ticket office before boarding is because there is no statutory provision for this here?

 

[barrykas]

Does Uk legisaltion allow for an admin fee to be charged on train? I thought one of the reasons we haven't had a situation like in othe rcountries where surcharges apply when tickets are not bought at an open ticket office before boarding is because there is no statutory provision for this here?

Probably not for the franchised TOCs, but Heathrow Express used to allow you to buy on board for a premium (£2 springs to mind).

And good old Condition 2 of the NCoC allows franchised TOCs to only sell Anytime tickets on board if you board without a ticket at a station with ticket issuing facilities.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Greenback]

Yes, good old condition 2! Presumably the Heathrow Express surcharge was specifically allowed for in it's particular legislation?

 

[Nash]

Would hs2 be better at dealing with our weather if the harsh winters continue or tracks that might get very hot if we have an extremely hot summer

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Does Uk legisaltion allow for an admin fee to be charged on train? I thought . . . . . . there is no statutory provision for this here?

I think you might be quite correct, Greenback!

The powers available to the TOCs are limited to those powers assigned by the various Railways Acts, in which the specific provisions are listed in the ByeLaws.

The alternative "workarounds" such as Penalty Fares are neither anticipated nor precluded by those Acts, but they do provide us with an understanding of how legal personnel have attempted to push the boundaries of what they can lawfully achieve.

 

[Flying Snail]

Neither can I, to be honest. However, in principle, and in an ideal world, I'd like to see railcard holders treated in a similar way to season ticket holders. Perhaps I'm too idealistic!

At what point does personal responsibility come into it? Really, as conditions go having to carry the railcard with the ticket is hardly that onerous is it?

My personal view is that extra time and resources should not be wasted on handholding people in this manner. I have sympathy for people caught out by some of the complex and irrational rules regarding certain tickets and services but this is not one of those situations. On-train staff cannot do their jobs if they have to spend several minutes with individual passengers attempting to record personal details from idiots who don't bother to carry their railcards and the queues at ticket offices are long enough as it is without them having to deal with verifying these people's details.

Mass transport only works when people follow the rules, as it is the vast majority do and a very large amount of money and staff time is taken up in dealing with the minority who don't. We should be looking at ways to make more of these people abide by the rules rather than facilitating them in ignoring these rules which are necessary for the system to work efficiently.

 

[Flamingo]

At what point does personal responsibility come into it? Really, as conditions go having to carry the railcard with the ticket is hardly that onerous is it?

My personal view is that extra time and resources should not be wasted on handholding people in this manner. I have sympathy for people caught out by some of the complex and irrational rules regarding certain tickets and services but this is not one of those situations. On-train staff cannot do their jobs if they have to spend several minutes with individual passengers attempting to record personal details from idiots who don't bother to carry their railcards and the queues at ticket offices are long enough as it is without them having to deal with verifying these people's details.

Mass transport only works when people follow the rules, as it is the vast majority do and a very large amount of money and staff time is taken up in dealing with the minority who don't. We should be looking at ways to make more of these people abide by the rules rather than facilitating them in ignoring these rules which are necessary for the system to work efficiently.

Well put

 

[cuccir]

If you've no sympathy for people who makes mistakes, then clearly you would never change the system.

 

[Greenback]

It's the people who make genuine mistakes that I feel sorry for, and it is these people who would benefit from having a sort of safety net once or twice a year.

As a season ticket holder myself, I am pleased that I cna legitimately forget to put my ticket in my pocket one day and get a full refund to cover my mistake. I don;t think it;s hand holding, and I've never taken advantage of it, but I don;t really see how this is any way different to a railcard holder forgetting to put their railcard in their pocket. In fact, there is probably more reason for a season ticket holder to travel more frequently in most cases, so will be more likely to have a routine that involves checking they have their ticket on them as I do.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Phrases extracted from the post above by Flying Snail and supported by Flamingo :
- personal responsibility
- having to carry the railcard is hardly onerous
- handholding people
- idiots who don't bother to carry their railcards
- follow the rules . . . . the minority don't
- facilitating them in ignoring these rules

Are these 6 points, all criticising passengers, really a response to the proposition in the OP :

If you have forgotten your card or your proof of reduced fare eligibility

? ? ?

I find that an astonishing view, particularly from someone employed in public service (though I agree that since Privatisation, then the TOCs ceased to be classed as a "public service" and apprently abandoned the principles of public service at that time).

Taking each of these in turn
- personal responsibility
Forgetting a Railcard is NOT abandoning personal responsibility
- having to carry the railcard is hardly onerous
Forgetting a Railcard is not a consequence of its difficulty
- handholding people
Having forgotten a Railcard is very simple and requires no handholding (though perhaps the Railway's Rules are less simple and do require staff time).
- idiots who don't bother to carry their railcards
Forgetting a Railcard is not symptomatic of idiocy nor lack of will
- follow the rules . . . . the minority don't
Forgetfulness does not engage with rule-led behaviour
- facilitating them in ignoring these rules
Forgetting a Railcard is not done in ignorance

I feel deep sadness at the distance some staff, who are occupied in rule-governed work, put between themselves and the Public whom they serve, whom pay them, of whom they are also a member, and whom themselves can NEVER be immune from forgetfulness.

Please remember too, that a rail official will enter one of these situations from a position of employment (with the responsibilities that confers). Passengers often do not carry the same weight of responsibility. They may be off duty, retired, weary or ill. They may be elderly, unhealthy or a child all of whom are quite ineligible to carry the same responsibility as a rail worker.

I expect all of us to have lapses of forgetfulness at times with just the same level of rational confidence that I expect trains to convey passengers. Lets treat others with respect and dignity please, we all forget, so lets confine this talk of "irresponsible", "idiots" and "ignorant" to situations to which it applies?

 

[jon0844]

Probably not for the franchised TOCs, but Heathrow Express used to allow you to buy on board for a premium (£2 springs to mind).

They still do, although I think it's £4 or £5 extra onboard now - and they won't give railcard discounts on the train either (nor from ticket machines, so you must queue up or buy in advance). I can't understand why, even if they gave the discount and THEN charged £4 on top.

Staff clearly don't want to (and don't) check railcards on the train, as I realised when they didn't ask for my railcard - so now I never show it. Because of this (so how would they ever waste time to check that a child has two accompanying adults?), they can't sell discounted tickets from the machine as they don't check their validity!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The French system seems to ensure that chancers don't benefit, makes it easier for staff to just do one thing - not have to make a judgement or deal with people pleading or threatening - and makes the railway seem more fair to the customer/passenger.

But, I am not expecting anything to change. In fact, if we aren't going to do anything to help those who really do make a mistake, as against try it on (or perhaps don't even have a railcard) then let's make damn sure we don't see any discretion being used; it's simple: No railcard, get hit hard. Then you won't get young males charged full fare while old ladies or flirty girls get let off 'this once'.

 

[bnm]

Plenty of TOCs don't and there are a lot of journeys for which the only walk-up fares available are full fare. Take Virgin, a regular traveller buys a railcard discounted off-peak and uses a peak train. Does his best to avoid on-board checks and gets away with it some of the time, other times ends up having to pay the difference to an anytime fare that should have been paid anyway.

Um, Virgin allow railcard users to travel on peak services with off peak tickets on services they operate and where they price the flow.

So a bad example. Substitute Virgin for any other inter-city TOC and you are of course correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They still do, although I think it's £4 or £5 extra onboard now - and they won't give railcard discounts on the train either

HEX do allow Disabled Railcard holders to get their discount if they buy onboard.

 

[Flamingo]

I had a passenger last week, who, on being asked to show their DSB railcard, mouthed "I'm deaf". The mime show continued until I wrote on some paper "Can I see your railcard?", when I got an paragraph back, the gist of which was he used his mates, and had forgotten to get it this time, but "nobody ever asked for them anyway". He was excessed up to the full off-peak price (which he paid without any argument).
Funnily enough, I saw him walking away from the train and he appeared to be using a mobile phone. However, under the system proposed, I'm sure his mate would have claimed a refund.

I feel deep sadness at the distance some staff, who are occupied in rule-governed work, put between themselves and the Public whom they serve, whom pay them, of whom they are also a member, and whom themselves can NEVER be immune from forgetfulness.

Dave you obviously have never worked a Sunday afternoon intercity train . Try it for a few weeks, and then see if your "the customer is always right" attitude is still as strong . I average between 6 and 10 missing or out-of-date railcards on a Sunday. I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt, even when I am being given an obvious load of BS, and will give a get-out clause if the passenger is smart enough to use it, if the story has any sort of plausibility. However, this usually involves either excessing up the ticket to the same price that the non-railcard holding public have paid for that train, or endorsing the return portion of the ticket so the passenger has the option of getting / finding their railcard for the return (or continuing) portion of their trip. On several occasions I have written "check R/C" on the return portion, and have the same passenger a few days later trying the same excuse, having forgotten that it was me they saw on the way out.

Passengers do forget their railcards. Passengers also do not have railcards and buy railcard tickets from TVM machines or online, buy them with with their mates railcard, try to show the ID portion as the railcard has expired, and some of them are repeat offenders, I know as I do see the same faces.

As has been asked time and time again on threads like this by those of us who do the job of all the armchair experts that tell us how we should be doing the job - how do you tell the genuine from the con-artist? I don't know, and I have not seen an answer yet - saying you must give the benefit of the doubt is not an answer, it's a cop-out.

However, the rules that are in place are quite easy to follow - if no valid railcard is carried, the ticket is not valid. The passengers who have railcards signed to agree to this, the passengers who do not have railcards KNOW that they do not possess the railcard and are not entitled to the discount. Why should I spare their feelings?

Talk about "national databases..." and "there should be..." are all very well. If anybody feels that strongly about it, make a business case to ATOC for it, or write to an MP. But don't get on my train without a railcard on a railcard-discounted ticket and expect to get off the other end without being asked to show the railcard, or parting with money / signing a UPFN.

Personally, I get an "oh no, not again" feeling when I ask for the railcard and see the same excuses being framed about new wallets and changed handbags, and "It's on my locker". I much prefer to clip a valid ticket and move on. But it makes a mockery of the system and is poor customer service to those that have paid the correct fare to turn a blind eye to those that have not paid the correct fare for their journey.

BTW, the last missing railcard case I was involved in that went to court, I offered to excess the pair up (£30 approx). They refused, and instead of leaving at the next stop as asked to, they locked themselves in a toilet. One got a police caution, the other (who had previous) got a total of £450 fine and costs. That was the magistrates decision, not the nasty TOC's or grasping revenue staff.

 

[jon0844]

I am not that bothered about changing the system, but feel the idea makes it easier for railstaff who can now just say 'This is the procedure. Pay for a full price ticket (I wasn't even suggesting charging only the difference, and you can claim later'. Nice and easy, and no need to listen to any stories or use discretion. Issue the full price ticket and move on. The people telling the truth aren't likely to complain too much, the ones that do are probably trying it on.

But, I won't be writing to my MP or anyone at ATOC as the current system is clear. It's just that anyone showing discretion suddenly messes that up. It should be black and white.

The season ticket thing is slightly different in that a discounted ticket isn't valid without a railcard, whereas someone who forgets their season ticket buys a new - valid - ticket and claims back later. Therefore, they've noticed before travelling and are given the opportunity to get a refund (less an admin fee) and I am pretty certain a record is kept.

As I said before, whether that record is properly recorded or in a way that actually enables any crosschecking later is not known (my suspicion is it's merely filed and nobody could keep track).

The French seem to have a system that sounds fairer, but if we can't do it - so be it - but we could do it.

Having gone around in circles so many times, and not being in a position to change anything, I think I shall leave it at that and say no more.

 

[Flamingo]

I know what you are saying Jon, it's not likely to happen any time soon.

I don't know if it would work anyway. On the few occasions I have told season-ticket holders to do that, there has been a deep unwillingness to do so (to put it politely). I can't see missing HMF, YP, Senior or DSB railcard holders being any more open to the idea

But thanks for trying to think of something that will make my job easier. I need all the help I can get!

 

[jon0844]

Season ticket holders that forget their season ticket must buy a new ticket before travel.

If I just went on a train and said 'hey, I left my season ticket at home' then I'd expect to be given a penalty fare. I think the only thing I could be assured of is not being reported for fare evasion, as I do have a valid ticket, but there's no arguing that I am failing to produce a valid ticket - and I wouldn't expect any discretion.

 

[MikeWh]

Season ticket holders that forget their season ticket must buy a new ticket before travel.

If I just went on a train and said 'hey, I left my season ticket at home' then I'd expect to be given a penalty fare. I think the only thing I could be assured of is not being reported for fare evasion, as I do have a valid ticket, but there's no arguing that I am failing to produce a valid ticket - and I wouldn't expect any discretion.

That's all very well, but if you start your journey at an ungated station believing that you have your ticket and only discover that you haven't when asked, what then? I've done that during the six years I commuted across London and both times I was able to claim back the cost of the ticket issued.

 

[jon0844]

I'd probably just accept the PF as I'd failed to produce a valid ticket, and kick myself for being stupid. If I could successfully appeal the claim then that's a bonus, but I wouldn't expect to 'win' it.

As it happens, I can't make that mistake as I also have PlusBUS and so would not be able to get the bus to the station in the first place, but I do always check I have my ticket before leaving (along with wallet and phone) and it's a habit that means I've never got to the bus stop to notice it's not in my pocket.

 

[Greenback]

The French system seems to ensure that chancers don't benefit, makes it easier for staff to just do one thing - not have to make a judgement or deal with people pleading or threatening - and makes the railway seem more fair to the customer/passenger.

But, I am not expecting anything to change. In fact, if we aren't going to do anything to help those who really do make a mistake, as against try it on (or perhaps don't even have a railcard) then let's make damn sure we don't see any discretion being used; it's simple: No railcard, get hit hard. Then you won't get young males charged full fare while old ladies or flirty girls get let off 'this once'.

I agree!

I had a passenger last week, who, on being asked to show their DSB railcard, mouthed "I'm deaf". The mime show continued until I wrote on some paper "Can I see your railcard?", when I got an paragraph back, the gist of which was he used his mates, and had forgotten to get it this time, but "nobody ever asked for them anyway". He was excessed up to the full off-peak price (which he paid without any argument).
Funnily enough, I saw him walking away from the train and he appeared to be using a mobile phone. However, under the system proposed, I'm sure his mate would have claimed a refund.
Dave you obviously have never worked a Sunday afternoon intercity train . Try it for a few weeks, and then see if your "the customer is always right" attitude is still as strong . I average between 6 and 10 missing or out-of-date railcards on a Sunday. I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt, even when I am being given an obvious load of BS, and will give a get-out clause if the passenger is smart enough to use it, if the story has any sort of plausibility. However, this usually involves either excessing up the ticket to the same price that the non-railcard holding public have paid for that train, or endorsing the return portion of the ticket so the passenger has the option of getting / finding their railcard for the return (or continuing) portion of their trip. On several occasions I have written "check R/C" on the return portion, and have the same passenger a few days later trying the same excuse, having forgotten that it was me they saw on the way out.

Passengers do forget their railcards. Passengers also do not have railcards and buy railcard tickets from TVM machines or online, buy them with with their mates railcard, try to show the ID portion as the railcard has expired, and some of them are repeat offenders, I know as I do see the same faces.

As has been asked time and time again on threads like this by those of us who do the job of all the armchair experts that tell us how we should be doing the job - how do you tell the genuine from the con-artist? I don't know, and I have not seen an answer yet - saying you must give the benefit of the doubt is not an answer, it's a cop-out.

However, the rules that are in place are quite easy to follow - if no valid railcard is carried, the ticket is not valid. The passengers who have railcards signed to agree to this, the passengers who do not have railcards KNOW that they do not possess the railcard and are not entitled to the discount. Why should I spare their feelings?

Talk about "national databases..." and "there should be..." are all very well. If anybody feels that strongly about it, make a business case to ATOC for it, or write to an MP. But don't get on my train without a railcard on a railcard-discounted ticket and expect to get off the other end without being asked to show the railcard, or parting with money / signing a UPFN.

Personally, I get an "oh no, not again" feeling when I ask for the railcard and see the same excuses being framed about new wallets and changed handbags, and "It's on my locker". I much prefer to clip a valid ticket and move on. But it makes a mockery of the system and is poor customer service to those that have paid the correct fare to turn a blind eye to those that have not paid the correct fare for their journey.

BTW, the last missing railcard case I was involved in that went to court, I offered to excess the pair up (£30 approx). They refused, and instead of leaving at the next stop as asked to, they locked themselves in a toilet. One got a police caution, the other (who had previous) got a total of £450 fine and costs. That was the magistrates decision, not the nasty TOC's or grasping revenue staff.

A good post Flamingo, but it does highlight how people can end up being treated differently depending on how they look, what they say or the way they behave as Jon has pointed out.

The season ticket thing is slightly different in that a discounted ticket isn't valid without a railcard, whereas someone who forgets their season ticket buys a new - valid - ticket and claims back later. Therefore, they've noticed before travelling and are given the opportunity to get a refund (less an admin fee) and I am pretty certain a record is kept.

As I said before, whether that record is properly recorded or in a way that actually enables any crosschecking later is not known (my suspicion is it's merely filed and nobody could keep track).

The French seem to have a system that sounds fairer, but if we can't do it - so be it - but we could do it.

Refunds for forgotten season were certainly recorded and checked in Reading when I worked there. However, it did rely on human beings physically updating the records on the computer system, so I am sure it was not always 100% effective.

The French system does appear to be fairer. I have been giving this a lot of thought and I believe the whole approach to revenue protection in the UK is flawed, and has been for some time. If I have time, I might start a new thread on that!

As it happens, I can't make that mistake as I also have PlusBUS and so would not be able to get the bus to the station in the first place, but I do always check I have my ticket before leaving (along with wallet and phone) and it's a habit that means I've never got to the bus stop to notice it's not in my pocket.

As I was saying, it should be a habit for most of us season ticket holders to check our tickets before we even arrive at the station! Infrequent travellers will not have such a routine, so are more likely to forget soemthing in my opinion!

 

[Flamingo]

I can't quite follow the argument "everybody should be treated the same". It doesn't happen in a court, so why should it happen when dealing with passengers on a train. I have many considerations when I come across a ticket irregularity, not least of which is that I am a lone worker, and my personal safety has to be considered. I take the view that every situation should be considered on it's merit, but whatever decision I come to should then be applied to everyone with the same circumstances I come across on that train. It usually works (to a given understanding of "works"! )

If I was to apply the strict interpretation of the CoC in all cases regardless, then a lot of people who have paid the correct fare would be very upset by the resulting delays waiting for police / ambulance attendance, not to mention the earbashing I would have on a daily basis from my manager for the resulting delay minutes - which would be the most painful part of it from my point of view! (I hate to hear a grown-up whinge! )

 

[jon0844]

One thing that concerned me a few years ago was that the very people who should be removed by the police were so often the ones let off, to avoid confrontation. I saw this a lot when my line was operated by Wagn and the revenue staff had been told never to get involved with groups. Thus, it was common for groups to travel without tickets and wind up revenue staff, goading them and causing general discomfort to other passengers.

I regularly heard RPIs saying 'I'm going to let you off this time', then move away and scribble down what I presume was a vague description of them for the future. Every now and then the RPIs had police backup and they were dealt with, but for the most part it was a farce. The message was 'threaten the staff, get away scot free' and it was also what I saw even more often when travelling on 'one', also operated by National Express.

I do wish RPIs weren't made to do trains on their own (if they are, I accept they have little choice), and also that staff knew they'd have the full backup of BTP (yes, I know, little chance). Yes, it would start to cause disruption but hopefully not for long as the message got through to the scrotes that they WON'T get off by doing what they do. Luckily, the introduction of gates has hugely reduced the problem - and at night, it doesn't matter as gates are left open and checks are rare, so there's nobody to catch the offenders who - hopefully - take over first class and leave everyone else alone.

 

[Flamingo]

I used to work late trains a lot, and I used to find them not so bad. The thing to remember is that the threat of kicking the troublemaker / ticketless off was an effective one, after they worked out it was the last train and they would be walking home.

My most evil one was charging two scrotes full opens (approx £70 each) after I caught them causing trouble, (BTP officer also gave them two £80 fines), and then kicking them off at the next station that had security (90 miles from home) as "I didn't feel safe to carry them further" after they got lippy when the BTP left the train.

The thing to remember, though, is that the majority of people on the train have bought a ticket and want to get home. Holding the train just so "the scrotes don't get away with it" is not very fair on the majority. The trouble-makers do turn up regularly, and after a while you get to know who they are, and can always work it so they remain on the platform. I used to do it to one all the time, to the extent that when he sees me now he stays on the platform, or walks up to me with cash in his hand.

I would prefer if the TOC's and BTP did more, but have been forced to accept they won't.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Dave you obviously have never worked a Sunday afternoon intercity train . Try it for a few weeks, and then see if your "the customer is always right" attitude is still as strong . I average between 6 and 10 missing or out-of-date railcards on a Sunday. I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt, even when I am being given an obvious load of BS, and will give a get-out clause if the passenger is smart enough to use it, if the story has any sort of plausibility.
. . . .
Passengers do forget their railcards. Passengers also do not have railcards and buy railcard tickets from TVM machines or online, buy them with with their mates railcard, try to show the ID portion as the railcard has expired, and some of them are repeat offenders, . . . .

Yes, I think I understood this is what happens and have no quarrel with you here.

But I WAS trying to make a distinction - a very important distinction, which followed from the post by Flying Snail (and supported by you, Flamingo), in which (s)he referred to those forgetting their Railcard as lacking personal responsibility, being idiots who don't bother, who don't follow the rules and ignore the rules.

The distinction I must repeat is:
Many of those who do cannot present a Railcard with a discounted ticket may be lacking responibility, may be an idiot, may ignore rules etc.
But,
Someone who has forgotten a Railcard is almost definitely not lacking responibility, will not be an idiot, and does not ignore rules etc.

I certainly had no wish to "tell you your job" nor to be an "armchair expert", nor adopting a "customer is always right attitude". Not at all. But I must insist on applying logic to categories - members of one group may also be in another category, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
If any of us ever does forget a Railcard (or the house keys etc) that does not put us in the same category as someone who willfully attempts to avoid paying the proper fare - its surely a reflection of this distinction that encourages guards and RPIs to consider exercising some discretion?

I take the view that every situation should be considered on it's merit, but whatever decision I come to should then be applied to everyone with the same circumstances I come across on that train.

This is exactly the response I welcome!

 

[Flamingo]

My interpretation of Snails post is that people do not present their railcards for many reasons. However, they are aware of the potential consequences of that from the beginning, and quite often (nine times put of ten), try and dodge the consequences by trying to make it everybody else's fault, be it nasty Revenue people, greedy TOC's, stupid disproportional rules and every other regular excuse offered. Believe me, I hear them - daily! It's their constant repetition that makes us a bit jaded.

And my post was a bit unfair and generalising as well - I apologise.