Forgotten railcards - the French solution

[penaltyfines]

I thought that would get some peoples' attention

I've just seen this on the TGV website and thought I'd share:

Good to know

If you have forgotten your card or your proof of reduced fare eligibility.
You will have to pay the ticket inspector the difference in price based on the on-board fare. This amount will subsequently be refunded to you, less a deduction, upon presentation of your reduced fare card at an SNCF or CFF station ticket desk or office. The only condition is that your ticket has to have had your details added to it by the ticket inspector on board the train (name, proof of identity number etc). If you are not able to prove your identity, then you will not be given a refund.

 

[jon0844]

My God - they copied my idea exactly.

See, it can be done! Although we don't have ID cards here.

 

[penaltyfines]

They could use anything which authenticates the owner of the ticket... they use the last 4 digits of the CC num and the name on the card for e-tickets, so that would be good enough...

1234 - SMITH written on the back would be good enough

Or just use a driving license

 

[jon0844]

A driving licence would be fine, but not everyone drives! It needs to be something that can properly identify the passenger, which a driving licence or ID card (or passport) would - otherwise, you could have someone able to give details about the owner, when it isn't actually them using the ticket. I guess that's what the admin fee tries to help stop.

I am sure we could figure it out though. The key is to think of a system from the eyes of a scammer, so you can hopefully make it hard to abuse - or pretty pointless.

 

[185]

They need a lantern fingerprint reader like the UK Border Agency have built into Avantix )

Scanning..... Click Ok.... Regular Fare Evader.... Click Ok.... Electrocute Passenger?.... Click Ok.

 

[Aictos]

They need a lantern fingerprint reader like the UK Border Agency have built into Avantix )

Scanning..... Click Ok.... Regular Fare Evader.... Click Ok.... Electrocute Passenger?.... Click Ok.

That's really cheered me up, ta

 

[cuccir]

A driving licence would be fine, but not everyone drives!

But everyone aged over 16 can get a provisional driving licence, or a passport.

 

[wintonian]

Unless medically unfit for some reason.

Nor do some pepole want to pay out £50 for a provisional when they don't intend to drive.

 

[PTF62]

I am sure we could figure it out though. The key is to think of a system from the eyes of a scammer, so you can hopefully make it hard to abuse - or pretty pointless.

As a scammer you would always buy a discounted ticket and then pay to 'upgrade' whenever you were caught.

Unless there is a penalty, unless you are caught 100% of the time, then you 'win'.

 

[jon0844]

But everyone aged over 16 can get a provisional driving licence, or a passport.

I don't generally carry my passport with me. I always have my driving licence, but if you didn't wish to drive (many people in London certainly don't see a need for a car, and both a licence and lessons is also very expensive now) then I doubt you'd just get a licence for the sake of it.

Mind you, most students probably have some sort of 'prove it' ID card that I guess would be acceptable.

As a scammer you would always buy a discounted ticket and then pay to 'upgrade' whenever you were caught.

Unless there is a penalty, unless you are caught 100% of the time, then you 'win'.

Firstly, that's why there was an admin charge. Secondly, a record must be kept. You only get to make one or two (maybe three) mistakes in any given year. The French system thought of something I didn't, which is providing some proof of who you are that can be recorded when the full price, on-train, ticket is sold (less the cost of your discounted ticket).

With my annual season ticket I could do a similar scam, which is to buy a full price travelcard for someone else, then get them to give it to me later - so I can get a refund (less the admin fee) saying that I'd bought it myself as I'd left my season ticket at home. However, I am pretty certain they keep a log of how many times I've done it (but it's done on paper, so I don't know if they record it on a computer that could flag anything up). I am not sure if there's a limit either, so if there isn't then people further out (where the ticket is more expensive and so more is refunded after the £10 fee) could be doing this quite a bit for all we know. I suspect the hassle puts people off, who would rather look for an easier scam.

 

[wintonian]

I don't generally carry my passport with me. I always have my driving licence, but if you didn't wish to drive (many people in London certainly don't see a need for a car, and both a licence and lessons is also very expensive now) then I doubt you'd just get a licence for the sake of it.

Mind you, most students probably have some sort of 'prove it' ID card that I guess would be acceptable.

Any one can buy one of those for £10 I think.

 

[moonrakerz]

or a passport.

Brilliant ! Now you will need to carry your b****y passport to get on a train !

But hang on a mo - if you forget to carry your railcard, why would you be any more likely to carry your passport ?

 

[jon0844]

You don't have to carry anything, but you would lose the right to claim later. They have ID cards in France and I presume most choose to carry them (not sure if it is compulsory) so they have an advantage there, depending on your view of an ID card.

 

[wintonian]

I know how about a free or £5ish rail ID card only valid on the rail network.

 

[Flamingo]

I know how about a free or £5ish rail ID card only valid on the rail network.

And then we could have threads about what happens when the "railway ID card" gets forgotten / mislaid :roll:

Personally, I think the present system works fine.

 

[jon0844]

You can't get your money back if you have no proof of ID.

Why keep the current system which puts pressure on rail staff when you can put the 'pressure' on the person who forgot the railcard? The French system shows common sense in operation.

 

[Flying Snail]

Firstly, that's why there was an admin charge. Secondly, a record must be kept. You only get to make one or two (maybe three) mistakes in any given year. The French system thought of something I didn't, which is providing some proof of who you are that can be recorded when the full price, on-train, ticket is sold (less the cost of your discounted ticket).

But what is the record linked to? Unless it is some foolproof instantaneous facial recognition system it is useless for stopping opportunist scammers.

What will happen is these types will (if unable to use some other scam that costs them less money) always buy a railcard discounted ticket. When challenged they will (after argueing/lying/pleading with the rail official for some time) pay the difference to the full fare they were supposed to pay in the first place. They will then claim to have no ID on them and give a false name.

At this point they have not been penalised one penny for their attempted fraud and aggro caused to the rail official and all it will take for them to be in the money is one journey where their ticket has not been checked.


The simple solution is to allow only one form of ID to be allowed as proof of discount status: the railcard, after all why do you believe so many people who forget to bring this with them will not have also forgotten any other form of acceptable ID?

 

[jon0844]

But what is the record linked to?

The railcard for that person. To get around any record, they'd need to get a new one (and not a mere replacement), so repeated claims would (well should) flag up.

I accept we might not have the means to keep such a log or compare, but that's simply because we don't have the means, not that we couldn't have the means!

What will happen is these types will (if unable to use some other scam that costs them less money) always buy a railcard discounted ticket. When challenged they will (after argueing/lying/pleading with the rail official for some time) pay the difference to the full fare they were supposed to pay in the first place. They will then claim to have no ID on them and give a false name.

At this point they have not been penalised one penny for their attempted fraud and aggro caused to the rail official and all it will take for them to be in the money is one journey where their ticket has not been checked.

But the idea is they pay the difference between their discounted ticket and the price of a ticket sold onboard, thus a lot more when it is a full open ticket. Thus, being unable to claim back later makes this a pathetic scam and you may as well not get a ticket at all, unless it's with a TOC that doesn't charge any premium for buying a ticket on the train.

 

[Greenback]

unless it's with a TOC that doesn't charge any premium for buying a ticket on the train.

There are quite a few of those!

 

[jon0844]

Presumably they all check tickets quite proactively on such trains, so you wouldn't get away with it very often, if ever.

 

[scotsman]

You don't have to carry anything, but you would lose the right to claim later. They have ID cards in France and I presume most choose to carry them (not sure if it is compulsory) so they have an advantage there, depending on your view of an ID card.

Les Inspecteurs check ID cards/passports with tickets

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well, they didn't check my passport either way between Paris and Melun in October, although they did chewck my ( Paris Visite ) ticket...

 

[Flying Snail]

The railcard for that person. To get around any record, they'd need to get a new one (and not a mere replacement), so repeated claims would (well should) flag up.

As the situation you are applying this to is where they do not produce said railcard you are relying on the person to then provide another form of verifiable ID (Passport, Driving licence) not just a credit card in the name of someone else who has a railcard or the typical scumbag response of "I have no ID".

But the idea is they pay the difference between their discounted ticket and the price of a ticket sold onboard, thus a lot more when it is a full open ticket. Thus, being unable to claim back later makes this a pathetic scam and you may as well not get a ticket at all, unless it's with a TOC that doesn't charge any premium for buying a ticket on the train.

Plenty of TOCs don't and there are a lot of journeys for which the only walk-up fares available are full fare. Take Virgin, a regular traveller buys a railcard discounted off-peak and uses a peak train. Does his best to avoid on-board checks and gets away with it some of the time, other times ends up having to pay the difference to an anytime fare that should have been paid anyway.

Really I don't see the point in adding a complex, expensive system with gaping loopholes for criminals just to accomodate those few "genuine cases" who are too stupid to remember to carry a credit-card size piece of plastic in their wallet which they are aware (by purchasing railcard-discounted fares) is saving them a lot of money.

There are a lot of things needing fixing in the rail ticket system, this isn't one of them. No Railcard, No railcard discount. It is as simple as a rule can be, no grey areas no exceptions. You are availing of a discount not available to a large proportion of passengers (most of whom would gladly abide by the rules for 1/3 off their fares) so either abide by the rules or pay up.

Edit: To make it extra simple I would provide a form to be signed by all Railcard applicants which has the words in large type: I agree that any tickets purchased with this railcard are only valid with the railcard which MUST be carried at all times with these tickets.

 

[Greenback]

Presumably they all check tickets quite proactively on such trains, so you wouldn't get away with it very often, if ever.

Indeed they do, in these parts at least, provided the trian isn;t so overcrowded as to make it impossible (which regularly happens on a 153 here at 1100 in the morning!)

As the situation you are applying this to is where they do not produce said railcard you are relying on the person to then provide another form of verifiable ID (Passport, Driving licence) not just a credit card in the name of someone else who has a railcard or the typical scumbag response of "I have no ID". Plenty of TOCs don't and there are a lot of journeys for which the only walk-up fares available are full fare. Take Virgin, a regular traveller buys a railcard discounted off-peak and uses a peak train. Does his best to avoid on-board checks and gets away with it some of the time, other times ends up having to pay the difference to an anytime fare that should have been paid anyway.

Really I don't see the point in adding a complex, expensive system with gaping loopholes for criminals just to accomodate those few "genuine cases" who are too stupid to remember to carry a credit-card size piece of plastic in their wallet which they are aware (by purchasing railcard-discounted fares) is saving them a lot of money.

There are a lot of things needing fixing in the rail ticket system, this isn't one of them. No Railcard, No railcard discount. It is as simple as a rule can be, no grey areas no exceptions. You are availing of a discount not available to a large proportion of passengers (most of whom would gladly abide by the rules for 1/3 off their fares) so either abide by the rules or pay up.

That is a good argument against the idea. However, I fail to see why such a scheme is acceptable for season ticket holders yet not railcard holders (of any description).

 

[Flamingo]

To give an easy explanation Greenback, because this scheme is obligatory for season ticket holders, but not for Railcard holders under the CoC.

Also, season tickets have the photocard ID number on them to identify the holder, whilst railcard tickets don't, and are therefore more open to abuse and transfer.

 

[Greenback]

In other words the TOC's would get rid of the ST scheme if they could!

 

[Flamingo]

In other words the TOC's would get rid of the ST scheme if they could!

I've no idea, but it's more they have absolutely no reason to implement a similar scheme for Railcards.

 

[Greenback]

I agree they have no reason to. They would lose revenue and it have to introduce yet more systems and procedures, which in itself would cost time and money. I've always said it won't happen!

I'm slightly less certain about whether it should happen!

 

[Flamingo]

I don't know if it's because they would lose revenue, as the revenue from missing railcards are not a huge amount or quantifiable by accountants, but the costs involved in setting up a system to provide refunds would be quantifiable, and involve giving money away not increasing revenue. I don't see any TOC introducing it, and in the current climate, I can't see parliament or the DfT pressuring them to implement it.

 

[Greenback]

Neither can I, to be honest. However, in principle, and in an ideal world, I'd like to see railcard holders treated in a similar way to season ticket holders. Perhaps I'm too idealistic!