Forgot Railcard - letter

[DaleCooper]

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As you have yet to receive a letter how do you know they won't show discretion in your case?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Yes we know the conditions of the railcard and you added nothing new, in many other industry's there are conditions but of course if a genuine mistake has happened company's do that little extra for there customers.

The difference is, that banks for example, have that person's account history, and will be able to know if it is a genuine mistake or not.

For the railways, it is different. You would not believe the number of people who purchase railcard discount tickets who do not hold a railcard. How can a guard/RPI, who has come across "missing" railcards many times before distinguish between a genuine mistake or a fare evader?

 

[najaB]

That's fine, forgetting a rail card is a criminal offence who am I to argue with the laws. But like in a lot of criminal law 'mens rea' is applied, strange how it isn't here, that's why it was questioned but thanks very much for the responses above.

A lot, but not all. Railway Byelaw offences are classified as strict liability. This means that the Court isn't allowed to consider *why* the offence occurred when reaching a verdict, only *if* it occurred.

They can consider mitigating factors when it comes to sentencing however.

By way of comparison, speeding offences are also strict liability - you are either above the speed limit or not. If you have a very good reason e.g. you were taking a dying person to the hospital, the police may choose not to prosecute, but if they do the magistrate will only ask what speed was recorded.

 

[djy92]

The difference is, that banks for example, have that person's account history, and will be able to know if it is a genuine mistake or not.

For the railways, it is different. You would not believe the number of people who purchase railcard discount tickets who do not hold a railcard. How can a guard/RPI, who has come across "missing" railcards many times before distinguish between a genuine mistake or a fare evader?

Because I had my driving licence and work ID in my bag so I assumed a normal human being would accept my mistake take my details and allow me to bring proof to the ticket office, obviously I was wrong.


Thanks again for replies a real eye opener.

 

[6Gman]

That's fine, forgetting a rail card is a criminal offence who am I to argue with the laws. But like in a lot of criminal law 'mens rea' is applied, strange how it isn't here, that's why it was questioned but thanks very much for the responses above.

No. Using an invalid ticket is the criminal offence. I travel with a card which authorises the ticket. I keep them together. The card is - effectively - part of the ticket. The ticket without the card ... isn't a valid ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because I had my driving licence and work ID in my bag so I assumed a normal human being would accept my mistake take my details and allow me to bring proof to the ticket office, obviously I was wrong.


Thanks again for replies a real eye opener.

If I came into your bank and asked for some money from an account, couldn't produce a bank card but offered my driving licence would you hand over the cash?

 

[djy92]

No. Using an invalid ticket is the criminal offence. I travel with a card which authorises the ticket. I keep them together. The card is - effectively - part of the ticket. The ticket without the card ... isn't a valid ticket.

I forgot my railcard, so because I forgot my railcard I committed a criminal offence whatever way you want to look at it.

If I came into your bank and asked for some money from an account, couldn't produce a bank card but offered my driving licence would you hand over the cash?

Of course if you forget/lose your card there are other alternatives to get cash from an account such as a passport, in order to help the customer as genuine mistakes happen.

 

[island]

The one remaining question I would be inclined to ask to ensure the usual byelaw 18 offence is complete is: did the station at which the passenger began their journey have facilities for them to pay their fare, ie a booking office or functioning TVM?

Potentially relevant if a byelaw 18 offence is charged, but given that the OP then declined to pay the correct fare when invited to do so, I would be of the opinion that a s5 RRA offence has been committed of travelling without having paid his fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof.

That's fine, forgetting a rail card is a criminal offence who am I to argue with the laws. But like in a lot of criminal law 'mens rea' is applied, strange how it isn't here, that's why it was questioned but thanks very much for the responses above.

Mens rea does not apply to offences under bylaw 18, which is strict liability, and as above failure to pay the full fare when requested is sufficient evidence as far as the law is concerned of intent to avoid the payment of the fare. (Intent, here, is a particular legal term and is different from what you may say you intended to do or not to do.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is a reasonable outcome. As future advice, if I were in a position where a railcard holder was unable to travel and offered me there ticket, I would take the ticket to a staffed booking office before travel and ask them to excess the ticket to the full fare. They are not obliged to do this, but it is the only way to stay on the straight and narrow.

Actually, staying on the straight and narrow is impossible in this scenario as you'd have already violated byelaw 21 (2), which requires that you do not receive any unused ticket unless the conditions of the ticket allow such transfer, which they probably don't.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course if you forget/lose your card there are other alternatives to get cash from an account such as a passport, in order to help the customer as genuine mistakes happen.

But that's different. In a bank you already have all the details of the customer so you can satisfy their identity before they leave "the system" (specifically, the branch). It's also not a criminal offence to lose your bank card.

In your scenario, you were a) breaking the law, and b) asking to be let off, leave "the system" (the railway) and sort it out later. As they say, "ain't nobody got time for dat".

 

[clagmonster]

I tried to pay when got to my destination and got the clarification I needed, but was informed I need to wait for the letter.

Potentially relevant if a byelaw 18 offence is charged, but given that the OP then declined to pay the correct fare when invited to do so, I would be of the opinion that a s5 RRA offence has been committed of travelling without having paid his fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof.

Would the fact that the passenger, having had the situation explained to them, subsequently attempted to pay their fare at their destination have any affect on this?

Actually, staying on the straight and narrow is impossible in this scenario as you'd have already violated byelaw 21 (2), which requires that you do not receive any unused ticket unless the conditions of the ticket allow such transfer, which they probably don't.

Thanks for that, every day is a school day. Condition 6 of the NRCoC states:
"6. Transferring a ticket to another person
A ticket may only be used by the person who bought that ticket, or the person on whose
behalf that ticket was bought. When a ticket is purchased on behalf of an organisation,
business or similar entity, then that ticket may be used by any person employed by such entity
unless otherwise shown on the ticket by means of a person’s name, photocard number or
other identifying mark. In such cases it may only be used by the person so identified.
No purchaser of a ticket may resell or transfer that ticket for value to anyone else unless
this has been specifically allowed by the terms and conditions which apply to that ticket,
and which will be made clear when you buy your ticket."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

So I think the first sentence of said condition confirms your suspicion. I had wondered whether obtaining the excess would effectively count as waiving that condition, but it seems neither the byelaws nor the Conditions of Carriage allowing for this. Apologies for the duff gen.

 

[najaB]

Would the fact that the passenger, having had the situation explained to them, subsequently attempted to pay their fare at their destination have any affect on this?

Nope, this is classic 'pay when challenged' behaviour. By not offering payment immediately they have demonstrated intent to avoid payment.

 

[jon0844]

Because I had my driving licence and work ID in my bag so I assumed a normal human being would accept my mistake take my details and allow me to bring proof to the ticket office, obviously I was wrong.

Are you suggesting they were in some way not normal now? You clearly still think you were hard done by don't you?

Do you think it's practical for rail staff to make a note to follow up at a later date to see if you did go to a station to prove you had a railcard (and that anyone at a ticket office would have a clue what to do when you turn up and say 'here's my railcard'), and for a detailed description to be made (perhaps even a photo of you) to make sure you didn't send someone else to show THEIR railcard because you didn't actually have one yourself? As would be quite easy to do if you think about it.

All that hassle, compared to paying for a new ticket, giving your details, then asking the train operator for some leniency and maybe getting let off 'this time' as a goodwill gesture - rather how you said a bank might do things with a charge that could be refunded?

 

[becon-t]

I'm interested to know where was the OP's railcard. Surely you would just put the ticket with your railcard in your wallet?!!! Why do anything else?

 

[reb0118]

If I came into your bank and asked for some money from an account, couldn't produce a bank card but offered my driving licence would you hand over the cash?

I fully understand the point you are making, however, I forgot my wallet one day and had no ID nor cash so popped into a branch of my bank to see if on the off chance there was anything that could be done. After a call to my branch and a few questions I left with £30.

 

[Deerfold]

I fully understand the point you are making, however, I forgot my wallet one day and had no ID nor cash so popped into a branch of my bank to see if on the off chance there was anything that could be done. After a call to my branch and a few questions I left with £30.

I've had no trouble withdrawing money from my account with my passport and the answer to a few security questions on several occasions.

 

[Agent_c]

I've had no trouble withdrawing money from my account with my passport and the answer to a few security questions on several occasions.

I know TSB allow it, but the limit is £50

Anyway, this is completely off the point, but if we must keep talking about finance industry, the FCA requires companies under its remit to commit to the principle of "treating the customer fairly". I think it would be hard to argue that standard isn't met.

By accident, you didn't take your railcard remdering your ticket invalid.
The company offered you an opportunity to put it right - you declined.
Thus the correct process for invalid ticket was followed.

There might be an argument that not being clear why your details were taken is unfair, but it's not going to get you out of the legal issues. Perhaps sass an outside chance a letter to customer relations may get you some sort of outcome of recognition, but I would not hold my breath waiting for it.

 

[djy92]

Are you suggesting they were in some way not normal now? You clearly still think you were hard done by don't you?

No how ever I assumed the person could have been more understand giving i pay £240 a week to the company he works for. No at the time I did wrongly assume I was hard done by but of course I wasnt as has been discussed.

Do you think it's practical for rail staff to make a note to follow up at a later date to see if you did go to a station to prove you had a railcard (and that anyone at a ticket office would have a clue what to do when you turn up and say 'here's my railcard'), and for a detailed description to be made (perhaps even a photo of you) to make sure you didn't send someone else to show THEIR railcard because you didn't actually have one yourself? As would be quite easy to do if you think about it.

No I don't think its practical however I assumed AT THE TIME, the company could do that little extra for me as a customer, but of course I was wrong.

Just count your blessings. The railway will sell you for a very modest cost a card which enables you to save theoretically thousands of pounds a year and in return it simply expects you to carry the thing to prove the entitlement. No more no less. In this respect they are no different to, say, the National Trust who have always applied a blanket card or pay approach to what they used to term 'forgetful members'.

Of course, but would the prices be the same without railcards ? I doubt it but that's a discussion for another day. Now I have made this journey for 2 years 5 times away, we don't need to do the maths. This is a one off mistake so I wouldn't put myself in the forgetful category thanks tho.

I'm interested to know where was the OP's railcard. Surely you would just put the ticket with your railcard in your wallet?!!! Why do anything else?

My partner's rail card was expiring so we got mine out of my bag and checked mine and forgot to put it back, hope that was interesting.

I fully understand the point you are making, however, I forgot my wallet one day and had no ID nor cash so popped into a branch of my bank to see if on the off chance there was anything that could be done. After a call to my branch and a few questions I left with £30.

Thats what I was assuming at the time, obviously my past experiences like this are different to how NR operate which is completely fine.


My mistake this has certainly cleared everything up. Thanks alot for the responses !

 

[jon0844]

Your bank has a load of info about you, which you can be asked to verify in many ways. How is this similar to the railway?

Sent from my PLK-L01 using Tapatalk

 

[6Gman]

Of course if you forget/lose your card there are other alternatives to get cash from an account such as a passport, in order to help the customer as genuine mistakes happen.

I'll try that then - will let you know how I get on.

 

[Deerfold]

I'll try that then - will let you know how I get on.

You can, but I'm not sure what you'll gain, unless you don't believe I've done it.

 

[Clip]

I'll try that then - will let you know how I get on.

Unsiure why you would question this as I thought it was well known that you can use other I'd like passport to withdraw cash.

However I cannot stress enough the comparison with banks or any other industry are worthless. You simply must present a railcard with a rc discounted ticket. Simple as that.

You either pay up when asked or Gert a letter through the post.

Thir really shouldn't have made this many pages.

 

[AlterEgo]

No how ever I assumed the person could have been more understand giving i pay £240 a week to the company he works for. No at the time I did wrongly assume I was hard done by but of course I wasnt as has been discussed.

£240 a week??

 

[trentside]

Right, I think this has run it's course.

The OP has been given the necessary advice, but if this thread does need reopening for further updates could djy92 please PM a staff member or Senior Fares Advisor.