Forgot Railcard - letter

[djy92]

Okay so I get the train 5 days a week never usually have a problem with the railcard always have it with me however on the train today, I was asked by the conductor to produce my rail card – I realised on this occasion I had forgotten my rail card. I asked the conductor would it be ok for me to provide my details, and show my railcard at the ticket office on Monday as proof that I do have a railcard, and had simply forgotten it on this one occasion. The conductor became very rude, and abrupt and refused, accusing me of fraud. This seems crazy as I was willing to provide my full details, and my railcard. I was shocked that this was the process.

The conductor explained its in the terms of conditions etc, okay now I work in a bank its in the TCs if you go into your overdraft or have unpaid DDR, you will be charged a fee, however in certain circumstances and for your customers where a genuine honest mistake has happened these fees can be removed and I am sure thousands of other companies operate in the same way, so being narrowminded (silly me) I assumed northernrail would operate the same.

So from my own experiences and the way the conductor spoke to me I found it very hard to believe what he was saying was true, so I simply asked when I arrived at my destination could I seek clarification from someone else (of course I have since found out because its in the T&Cs northernrail can not help out their regular customers, right fine okay I pay the difference.)

However when I asked this question of the conductor he said he needs my address and name to confirm I am who I say I am and he will run a check, and if its okay I can continue to my destination, if not I would have to get off the train or pay the difference.

Ten minutes later he walks passed and says nothing, 2 minutes later he does the same again, So I asked was everything okay with the check ? he said yes and went to walk off again So I asked whats the process now who do I speak to when I get to my destination, He replied "you will be getting a letter in the post?"

I was in shock I had no idea what to say, a letter in the post ? saying what exactly ?

Has this guy just lied to me in order to obtain my details ? is that OKAY ? can he do that ?

 

[trentside]

Unfortunately there are lots of people who "forget" their railcard on a regular basis, so it's difficult for train operating companies to differentiate between the genuine and the fraudulent. Some do operate a "forgotten railcard" policy and others don't. Offering to provide details is actually a favourite trick of certain fare evaders to get further, by providing false details etc.

Onto the T&Cs issue - what normally happens is that you will be requested to purchase a new full fare ticket, did the conductor offer this or go straight to asking for your details? The latter seems unusual if so. I should note that sometimes you will be able to pay the difference at the conductors discretion, but this is not a right.

If this was all conducted onboard then I'd expect you will receive a letter from Northern for the fare owing, but with Northern it's possible they'll seek a further settlement of £80.

 

[najaB]

Has this guy just lied to me in order to obtain my details ? is that OKAY ? can he do that ?

No, he got your details so that they can write to you. He would have done an address check with the back-office teams to ensure that the details you provided were accurate as it is an offence to fail to provide your name and address.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . , a letter in the post ? saying what exactly ?

The letter will be sent by an investigating officer, whose duty is to try to distinguish the very many deliberate and persistent fare evaders from the many one-off, accidental or blameless non-payers and from any other causes of a ticket irregularity. It's a widespread challenge for the industry, believed to cost hundreds of millions of pounds a year across the UK. Some of the 'worst' routes are those short distance commuter services in and around large cities.
Serious and persistent offenders are very likely to be prosecuted in the Magistrates Court, one-off accidents are likely to be excused or settled by way of an administrative settlement.

The letter, when it arrives, will invite you to reply with your explanation of the circumstances of your discounted ticket on that occassion when you had no qualifying Railcard to present for inspection.
As you might expect, any prior incidents of a ticket irregularity will be a significant factor in estimating into which category you fall, and therefore which outcome is most probable.

Has this guy just lied to me in order to obtain my details ? is that OKAY ? can he do that ?

Yes, of course he can ask for your contact details, and you were in breach of the conditions, and therefor some sort of consequence should be an option, many possible consequences will require either further communication, or a check for previous incidents, both of which will be simpler if the passenger's details are obtained promptly. I don't see any "lying".

If the Company's records confirm that this appears to have been a one-off accident, then I expect that an administrative settlement will be offered to you to dispose of the matter. But if so, I should warn you that if you decline that offer, then the facts of the matter suggest to me that a Court might then be asked to confirm that an Offence has been committed and to pass sentence accordingly. Your accidentally forgetting to carry the Railcard when travelling with a discounted ticket would not be an adequate defence.

 

[djy92]

Onto the T&Cs issue - what normally happens is that you will be requested to purchase a new full fare ticket, did the conductor offer this or go straight to asking for your details? The latter seems unusual if so. I should note that sometimes you will be able to pay the difference at the conductors discretion, but this is not a right.

The conductor did offer this how at the time I didn't pay because I assumed that every reputable company is willing to go the extra mile for their customers and the attitude of the guy wasn't very friendly so it was hard for me (at the time) to believe this was the process. Now obviously I know I was very wrong and I simply asked can I seek clarification from another member of staff this is the process.

No, he got your details so that they can write to you. He would have done an address check with the back-office teams to ensure that the details you provided were accurate as it is an offence to fail to provide your name and address.

That's fine, I again ASSUMED obviously wrongly, that if Northernrail want my details they would have to give me the reason as to why, which in this case he didn't

Yes, of course he can ask for your contact details, and you were in breach of the conditions, and therefor some sort of consequence should be an option, many possible consequences will require either further communication, or a check for previous incidents, both of which will be simpler if the passenger's details are obtained promptly. I don't see any "lying".

I understand he can ask me for my details and I had no problem providing them, I again ASSUMED obviously wrongly, that Northernrail would need to give me a reason as to why they want my details. I am surprised Northern can take people's details without giving them the reason why. As he told me it was to run a check, so I could continue on the train and speak to someone at my end destination, when in fact it was to send me a letter. In multiple other industry's you would have to give the reason.

If the Company's records confirm that this appears to have been a one-off accident, then I expect that an administrative settlement will be offered to you to dispose of the matter. But if so, I should warn you that if you decline that offer, then the facts of the matter suggest to me that a Court might then be asked to confirm that an Offence has been committed and to pass sentence accordingly. Your accidentally forgetting to carry the Railcard when travelling with a discounted ticket would not be an adequate defence.

It may not be a defence but its hard FACT. Of course I will pay whatever the letter says. I have made the mistake of being very narrow minded in assuming that Northern would be no different to so many other reputable company's in the UK and going the extra mile for their customers.

Thanks for the replies, appreciate it.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think from the content in the first post this might be about a forgotten season ticket, not a railcard? If it was just a missing railcard, wouldn't the OP still have had a ticket, and be explaining the problem in a slightly different way?

 

[najaB]

I think from the content in the first post this might be about a forgotten season ticket, not a railcard? If it was just a missing railcard, wouldn't the OP still have had a ticket, and be explaining the problem in a slightly different way?

Possibly, but this:

...if not I would have to get off the train or pay the difference.

makes me think it is a case of a missing railcard. Hopefully the OP will be back soon and can clarify for us.

 

[djy92]

I think from the content in the first post this might be about a forgotten season ticket, not a railcard? If it was just a missing railcard, wouldn't the OP still have had a ticket, and be explaining the problem in a slightly different way?

I had a ticket, but forgot railcard.

 

[swt_passenger]

I had a ticket, but forgot railcard.

Ok, sorry for clouding the issue. Where I am it is unusual for railcards to be much help for 5 day a week commuting, due to various time restrictions.

 

[djy92]

If the member of staff was rude that's unacceptable but as for holding a ticket not valid for the journey - which the OP was - as my post 33 under Compliance (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2621588&postcount=33) makes clear the procedures have been the same for years. If you want to travel on you must either pay the fare or give your name and address. They don't ask for a name and address for the good of their health. Personally I am not surprised you weren't allowed to 'pay the difference' as you never had a valid ticket in the first place. Proof that you did indeed hold the railcard prior to the day of the incident would I suspect mitigate things in any future action but the fact is you were in the wrong.

Yes now I know now the procedures have been the same however at the time I didn't and like I said I was very narrow minded and assumed that Northernrail similar to the company I work for and many other company's would go the extra mile for one of their customers and allow me to provide proof I have a railcard but of course since have found this to be false.

No I am sure they don't ask for name and address for good of health, but I was informed this was to check I was who I said I was and nothing more. I was then told I would be receiving a letter, which I was unaware that is what I was proving my details for. At the time of writing the OP I assumed I must be told by the conductor the true reason why he wanted my details, in every other industry in the UK you are told why you are giving your details, but ofcourse this seems a little different then. Infact if I didn't call the conductor back over I wouldn't have even know I was getting a letter.

I am amazed that a conductor can take my details and inform me its for one thing, when infact it was in order to send me a letter in the post. I assumed that in order to send me a letter in the post, he would need to inform me thats what he was getting my details for.
But obviously I need to broaden my horizon and open my eyes and get out a little more.

Thanks again for the reply.

 

[SickyNicky]

Ok, sorry for clouding the issue. Where I am it is unusual for railcards to be much help for 5 day a week commuting, due to various time restrictions.

For many flows, possibly the majority of them (I've never actually run the figures through the database), it's cheaper to buy daily tickets if you hold a Disabled Person's Railcard.

 

[djy92]

In Summary.

7(1)
(a)to be informed by any data controller whether personal data of which that individual is the data subject are being processed by or on behalf of that data controller,
(b)if that is the case, to be given by the data controller a description of—

(i)the personal data of which that individual is the data subject,
Correct
(ii)the purposes for which they are being or are to be processed,
Incorrect
(iii)the recipients or classes of recipients to whom they are or may be disclosed
Incorrect

^^^^ That's what I am asking, someone with more knowledge please explain, what I am missing in terms of the guard taking my details without informing me why I was giving my details.

 

[najaB]

For many flows, possibly the majority of them (I've never actually run the figures through the database), it's cheaper to buy daily tickets if you hold a Disabled Person's Railcard.

I suppose it also depends on the time that the passenger is travelling. Out in the late morning, back in the late evening then any railcard will work.

Seeing as the OP's ticket wasn't valid without the railcard I can't see anything wrong with the guard/RPI's actions - excepting any rudeness, of course. As always, we only have one side of the story at present.

 

[Flamingo]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that somebody employed by a High Street Bank is complaining about another company's "unreasonable charges" and "not going the extra mile for customers"?

The T&C of a YP railcard are quite simple, quite specific, and the OP obviously knew them.

From my reading of it, the OP offered to provide his details rather than buying a new ticket, so why all the posts about whether the Guard/Revenue staff had the right to ask for them? (Which they did, by the way).

 

[djy92]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that somebody employed by a High Street Bank is complaining about another company's "unreasonable charges" and "not going the extra mile for customers"?

Ok sir thanks for your opinion, however my mind was obviously clouded from my experience both in work and with other companys, I assumed NR wouldn't mind me bringing railcard along on Monday infact I was amazed this wouldn't be okay.

The T&C of a YP railcard are quite simple, quite specific, and the OP obviously knew them.

The guard told me this, however I found it hard to believe and asked to seek clarification from another member of staff (yes my mistake now I understand this)

From my reading of it, the OP offered to provide his details rather than buying a new ticket, so why all the posts about whether the Guard/Revenue staff had the right to ask for them? (Which they did, by the way).

I asked would I be okay to provide me details and bring my railcard in on Monday and was informed NO.
After some more discussion I was told if I give my details he will run a check on me and confirm I am who I say I am, if the check passes he will allow me to continue to my end destination and speak at the station to another member of staff. I am not asking whether he had the right to ask for them, of course he did.

My question is, should I have been told the reason why I was giving my details ? At the time of me providing my details I was not told the full reason for this. Is this acceptable ?

 

[najaB]

My question is, should I have been told the reason why I was giving my details ? At the time of me providing my details I was not told the full reason for this. Is this acceptable ?

Yes. The Guard/RPI is given specific powers by the Railway Byelaws and Regulation of Railways Act to request your name and address, and there is no requirement under either set of legislation for them to provide a reason - largely because refusal to provide your details is a separate offence in itself.

 

[djy92]

Yes. The Guard/RPI is given specific powers by the Railway Byelaws and Regulation of Railways Act to request your name and address, and there is no requirement under either set of legislation for them to provide a reason - largely because refusal to provide your details is a separate offence in itself.

Okay thank you

 

[najaB]

Okay thank you

I'll modify my previous statement - there is a requirement to provide a reason for asking for your details, but there is no requirement to provide an explanation beyond the fact that they suspect you have committed and offence and that they require your details to identify you. In this case the guard appears to have done both.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I'll modify my previous statement - there is a requirement to provide a reason for asking for your details, but there is no requirement to provide an explanation beyond the fact that they suspect you have committed and offence and that they require your details to identify you. In this case the guard appears to have done both.

I wouldn't quite agree as the relevant bit says:

"The authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these Byelaws in general terms at the time of the request."

So, you are entitled to know which bit of the byelaws they *reasonably* suspect you are foul of. I have always assumed the word "general" is included so that the byelaw in question doesn't have to be quoted verbatim.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose it also depends on the time that the passenger is travelling. Out in the late morning, back in the late evening then any railcard will work.

For a YP card it "works" all the time but there is a minimum fare before 10.00. I rather imagine you know this. If you were commuting from, say, Luton to London, i.e. not far, you would be better off buying tickets daily.

 

[AlterEgo]

In Summary.

7(1)
(a)to be informed by any data controller whether personal data of which that individual is the data subject are being processed by or on behalf of that data controller,
(b)if that is the case, to be given by the data controller a description of—

(i)the personal data of which that individual is the data subject,
Correct
(ii)the purposes for which they are being or are to be processed,
Incorrect
(iii)the recipients or classes of recipients to whom they are or may be disclosed
Incorrect

^^^^ That's what I am asking, someone with more knowledge please explain, what I am missing in terms of the guard taking my details without informing me why I was giving my details.

There are exemptions to the data protection principles if the purpose of collecting the data is to prevent fraud, misuse or crime. For example, if the police collect data about you they don't have to tell you why or even if they're doing it.

You committed an offence, albeit unwittingly. I would expect Northern are exempt from the principles in pursuit of preventing or detecting offences.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't quite agree as the relevant bit says:

"The authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these Byelaws in general terms at the time of the request."

So, you are entitled to know which bit of the byelaws they *reasonably* suspect you are foul of. I have always assumed the word "general" is included so that the byelaw in question doesn't have to be quoted verbatim.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


For a YP card it "works" all the time but there is a minimum fare before 10.00. I rather imagine you know this. If you were commuting from, say, Luton to London, i.e. not far, you would be better off buying tickets daily.

The OP was informed in general terms what the breach was - "You haven't got your railcard with your ticket" - in my view that satisfies this condition.

Too many picking holes, this is a straightforward case and the OP should pay in full as soon as reasonably possible.

 

[djy92]

Too many picking holes, this is a straightforward case and the OP should pay in full as soon as reasonably possible.

I tried to pay when got to my destination and got the clarification I needed, but was informed I need to wait for the letter.

 

[AlterEgo]

I tried to pay when got to my destination and got the clarification I needed, but was informed I need to wait for the letter.

This is likely because Northern will want a settlement figure I'm afraid.

 

[djy92]

This is likely because Northern will want a settlement figure I'm afraid.

What will be, will be. Certainly an eye opener.

 

[jon0844]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that somebody employed by a High Street Bank is complaining about another company's "unreasonable charges" and "not going the extra mile for customers"?

The T&C of a YP railcard are quite simple, quite specific, and the OP obviously knew them.

From my reading of it, the OP offered to provide his details rather than buying a new ticket, so why all the posts about whether the Guard/Revenue staff had the right to ask for them? (Which they did, by the way).

The OP also said that a bank usually levies a charge and then you can appeal and potentially get the fee waived, so to follow that logic then buying a new ticket and contacting customer services would fit perfectly with the bank way of doing things.

So why didn't the OP do just that?

 

[djy92]

The OP also said that a bank usually levies a charge and then you can appeal and potentially get the fee waived, so to follow that logic then buying a new ticket and contacting customer services would fit perfectly with the bank way of doing things.

So why didn't the OP do just that?

No its nothing about appealing, its about communication from company to bank to see what can be done to help the customer.

Which is what I was looking for at that time, but of course that's not how NR run things, which is fine of course.

 

[island]

I had a ticket, but forgot railcard.

So you didn't have a valid ticket. The conditions of the Railcard, which you chose to agree to when purchasing the Railcard and signed to accept when you received the Railcard, include that you must present the Railcard along with any discounted tickets.

The normal way for a guard of dealing with a passenger unable to produce a valid ticket is to request the purchase of a new ticket, which is indeed what happened, but you chose not to agree to this request. That has resulted in the matter being escalated.

The usual course of action from Northern in these circumstances is the issuance of a Penalty Fake for £80 plus the price of the single fare, payment of which will result in the matter being taken no further and non-payment of which may result in prosecution.

As mentioned above, there is a carve-out from the Data Protection Act for data processed in connection with the prevention and detection of crime. Joining a train without a valid ticket is a criminal offence, so that exemption applies here.

 

[clagmonster]

The usual course of action from Northern in these circumstances is the issuance of a Penalty Fake for £80 plus the price of the single fare, payment of which will result in the matter being taken no further and non-payment of which may result in prosecution.

The one remaining question I would be inclined to ask to ensure the usual byelaw 18 offence is complete is: did the station at which the passenger began their journey have facilities for them to pay their fare, ie a booking office or functioning TVM?

In either case, when the letter arrives, I would advise djy92 to reply admitting that they forgot the railcard, appologise for the mistake and inconvenience they have caused Northern, offer to pay the full undiscounted fare for the journey made and any costs to cover Northern's administration of the matter. I would also enclose the railcard, or at the very least a copy of it, as proof of its existence and keep a copy of what is sent and proof of postage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I actually travelled on a ticket which was purchased using my nans rail card. Unfortunately my nan was unable to make the trip and so I had to pay an extra fare along with a letter in the mail. Fortunately no further action was taken however, despite having the railcard, in my nans name, it was not valid.

That is a reasonable outcome. As future advice, if I were in a position where a railcard holder was unable to travel and offered me there ticket, I would take the ticket to a staffed booking office before travel and ask them to excess the ticket to the full fare. They are not obliged to do this, but it is the only way to stay on the straight and narrow.

If it proves impossible to gain the excess before travel, then don't attempt to use the ticket.

 

[djy92]

So you didn't have a valid ticket. The conditions of the Railcard, which you chose to agree to when purchasing the Railcard and signed to accept when you received the Railcard, include that you must present the Railcard along with any discounted tickets.

The normal way for a guard of dealing with a passenger unable to produce a valid ticket is to request the purchase of a new ticket, which is indeed what happened, but you chose not to agree to this request. That has resulted in the matter being escalated.

The usual course of action from Northern in these circumstances is the issuance of a Penalty Fake for £80 plus the price of the single fare, payment of which will result in the matter being taken no further and non-payment of which may result in prosecution.

Yes we know the conditions of the railcard and you added nothing new, in many other industry's there are conditions but of course if a genuine mistake has happened company's do that little extra for there customers.

As mentioned above, there is a carve-out from the Data Protection Act for data processed in connection with the prevention and detection of crime. Joining a train without a valid ticket is a criminal offence, so that exemption applies here.

That's fine, forgetting a rail card is a criminal offence who am I to argue with the laws. But like in a lot of criminal law 'mens rea' is applied, strange how it isn't here, that's why it was questioned but thanks very much for the responses above.

 

[DaleCooper]

Yes we know the conditions of the railcard and you added nothing new, in many other industry's there are conditions but of course if a genuine mistake has happened company's do that little extra for there customers.

It seems to me that the guard offered you a compromise (a full price ticket) but you refused to accept that offer. I'm sure your bank will only go so far to help a customer and if they don't accept that help then "on their own head be it".

 

[TheEdge]

Yes we know the conditions of the railcard and you added nothing new, in many other industry's there are conditions but of course if a genuine mistake has happened company's do that little extra for there customers.

The issue arises is that few other industries suffer such widespread attempts by its users to defraud them out of payment for their service. I will not go a day at work, as a conductor, without coming across at least one person, on some days on every train, who is trying to avoid paying. That ranges from your traditional scrote hiding in the toilet through adults asking for child fares, "lost" railcards and "lost" tickets down to the pay when challenged brigade who will passively attempt to avoid paying. As such telling apart the real and fake cases is nigh on impossible so the railway operates a pretty fair system. You can just pay the fare you are meant to, if you refuse it can be escalated to various penalty fare systems, if you refuse that it can be taken to court as a criminal offense. You were offered the first rung, you refused, its been taken to the next level.

That's fine, forgetting a rail card is a criminal offence who am I to argue with the laws. But like in a lot of criminal law 'mens rea' is applied, strange how it isn't here, that's why it was questioned but thanks very much for the responses above.

Its the same pretty much for the reasons above.